Political Crossfire Forums

[Righfheinnidhe]

riglachstrategy@yahoo.ie

I am just wondering here what peoples views are in relation to an idea floating around in Irish Nationalist circles known as the 'Riglach Strategy'. It basically comprises of a tactical move by Nationalists for repartitioning the Northern State and undermining English rule away from its current impassible state. It is designed in three phases, the first where Self-determination is demanded by the people of Fermanagh and Tyrone on the basis that in both 1918 and 1919 these counties voted for Independence and also that since partition both these counties have continually kept a Nationalist majority. A second phase involves the demand by Armagh and Doire for their independence due to their substantial Nationalist majorities and a route is pursued similar to the way Quebec had a referendum to seperate itself from Canada a few years back. The final phase then involves making the final area Antrim and Down unworkable through political insecurity from both South Down and West Belfast.

Its benefits are that Nationalists will have the potential to have a further 20 seats in Dail Eireann once the 4 Nationalist counties gain their independence, so ending the cosy consensus of the 26 county parties. It also divides Unionists and totally undermines their propaganda for a Protestant Nation for a Protestant people. It also destroys the economy, tourism, infrastructure of the current six county state and forces both the Unionists and English into retreat. It removes almost half of the current occupying police and military force of the Brits in the six counties and creates a new Nationalist stronghold that Republicans can continue to work within to attack the occupation of Ireland.

[Righfheinnidhe]

riglachstrategy@yahoo.ie

I believe its totally possible. Firstly moral is very low in Irish Nationalism at the moment and other than the bulk of dedicated activists, much of the general public do not believe an Irish Republic is achievable until the demographics in the North favour Nationalists. It would be a mistake to prolong the Northern conflict until demographics change as Unionists will then themselves repartition the state rather than allow Nationalists gain total victory in a single move. The 'Riglach Strategy' offers an opportunity to rebuild the National struggle from sractch and remove all the existing arguments that have prevented us from gaining any form of independence over the past 82 years since the Civil War ended. The 'Riglach Strategy' undermines the Northern state at its very core as it rips assunder the 6 County entity that Unionists have for so long tried to establish as a legitimate territorial landmass.

It sets our goals in realistic aims. I say this as the Armed Struggle has failed in the 25 year war fought by the Provo's against English Occupation. To believe that Militants can repeat a War on that scale at the moment and defeat the English is an illusion and any war fought now would be to either slowly build momentum or as a token gesture of opposition to English rule. Nationalism is no longer the main priority of the bulk of Irish people, so realistically we have to except that the Nationalist base will never heighten to over 2 or 3% of active people and this support base only lasts for a short period of time. Also I believe the current Sinn Fein agenda is totally incorrect. Not because it is a political route, but because it aims to reform the Northern State rather than destroy it. In fact as history has proven this will only reinforce partition. So the only other option is how to draw Nationalists away from participating in the structures of the Northern State.

The best solution is to encourage them to establish the 32 county Dail Eireann and forcing the brits out of Fermanagh and Tyrone for a start is a step closer to Irish Unification. It is a favourable strategy for Sinn Fein as they could gain an extra four or five TD's from this single move with an extra 7 or 8 TD's once the second part Doire and Armagh gain their independence. It will also rally thousands of extra voters to their ranks as nationalism will gather a momentum nationwide with such a move. If Sinn Fein is to stay on a political agenda it needs to make fast ground sooner rather than over a ten year period. This could double their representation if not trible it in the next election and make them a force to be reckoned with and it may also totally finish the PD's from ever entering into government again. It also secures a new base for Nationlists to work in as Fermanagh and Tyrone are far more Nationalist that other counties in the southern state. Its possible you will have a sympathetic Garda force and Irish defence force established in this region as well as forcing the English to dismantle its bases and retreat from a significant section of the Northern State.

[Eton]

It's an interesting idea, however just a few points:

1. As an English man sympathetic to Irish unity I object to your repeated expressions of 'English occupation', it is British and I'm not sure if it is an occupation if the majority of the population wants to be part of the UK. Please remember most of the Unionists are decended from Scottish settlers sent there by the Scottish Stuart dynasty.

2. The British army is already dismantling its military presence in the province.

3. The biggest problem is convincing the Republic of Ireland to accept Ulster. They simply do not have the resources to maintain the rather generous welfare state that exists north of the border and nobody relishes having a million pissed off unionists in their country.

[HarmonyOnTheRight]

I'd have hoped for a new political dimension to Ulster politics and this posting talking of English occupation, Nationalist struggle, shows how primative this debate still remains.

Freedom, independence, what is wrong with you? Since when have you known Irish rule?

King Henry II landed in Eire in 1132, and Ireland was NOT a country, like England and Scotland before it, it was a set of kingdoms.

Why nationalist romantics want to hark back to a 'free Ireland' that they have never had since 1132 is tragic.

Nationalism of any kind is a nasty, hateful politics - its vulgar and base and this thread sums it up neatly

[Ssushi]

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: I'd have hoped for a new political dimension to Ulster politics and this posting talking of English occupation, Nationalist struggle, shows how primative this debate still remains.

Freedom, independence, what is wrong with you? Since when have you known Irish rule?

King Henry II landed in Eire in 1132, and Ireland was NOT a country, like England and Scotland before it, it was a set of kingdoms.

Why nationalist romantics want to hark back to a 'free Ireland' that they have never had since 1132 is tragic.

Nationalism of any kind is a nasty, hateful politics - its vulgar and base and this thread sums it up neatly

Well posted! It's very rarely known by the Irsih that 'Ireland' did not exist at the start of the infamous '800 years' or that the vikings at that time were in fact helping one Irish Warlord in his fight with another, who subsequently asked for English help...

[Ssushi]

PS Righfheinnidhe. If you want to talk about divisions in Ireland ask what people from Cork think about everyone else in the country and ask what everyone outside Dublin thinks about Dubliners and vice versa!!

Then move on and poll people in Eire about their thoughts on the North... do they on mass actually want the North back into their ecconomy?

[HarmonyOnTheRight]

Exactly. The Nationalist movement was even founded by an English-born Protestant and their aim and objective was home-rule. It was not based on the romanticism of a free 'Eire' before 1132.

It was only after the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1921 that the Nationalist movement in the north became the Republican movement

[Shadow]

Righfheinnidhe wrote: riglachstrategy@yahoo.ie

I am just wondering here what peoples views are in relation to an idea floating around in Irish Nationalist circles known as the 'Riglach Strategy'. It basically comprises of a tactical move by Nationalists for repartitioning the Northern State and undermining English rule away from its current impassible state. It is designed in three phases, the first where Self-determination is demanded by the people of Fermanagh and Tyrone on the basis that in both 1918 and 1919 these counties voted for Independence and also that since partition both these counties have continually kept a Nationalist majority. A second phase involves the demand by Armagh and Doire for their independence due to their substantial Nationalist majorities and a route is pursued similar to the way Quebec had a referendum to seperate itself from Canada a few years back. The final phase then involves making the final area Antrim and Down unworkable through political insecurity from both South Down and West Belfast.

Its benefits are that Nationalists will have the potential to have a further 20 seats in Dail Eireann once the 4 Nationalist counties gain their independence, so ending the cosy consensus of the 26 county parties. It also divides Unionists and totally undermines their propaganda for a Protestant Nation for a Protestant people. It also destroys the economy, tourism, infrastructure of the current six county state and forces both the Unionists and English into retreat. It removes almost half of the current occupying police and military force of the Brits in the six counties and creates a new Nationalist stronghold that Republicans can continue to work within to attack the occupation of Ireland.
This is an interesting idea and one I have heard before. It has been toyed with on many occassions since the start of the troubles.
I don't think it will work though it would be causing another partition and all the associated problems, the biggest one being increased instability. The restructuring of Health, education, policing and DSS services would take years and cause immense problems for those effected.
It is a very romantic idea but not a practical one. At the risk of sounding like a republican- It has to be all or nothing.

[thundertaker]

Why can't you just wait until Catholics outnumber Protestants in the North substantially? We'll gladly palm them off onto the Republic when the majority of residents support it. The question is, would the South want to annex Ulster, with all the associated Loyalist bombings, assasinations and violence that would entail on the streets of Dublin?

[barstool]

thundertaker wrote: Why can't you just wait until Catholics outnumber Protestants in the North substantially? We'll gladly palm them off onto the Republic when the majority of residents support it. The question is, would the South want to annex Ulster, with all the associated Loyalist bombings, assasinations and violence that would entail on the streets of Dublin?

Every loyalist drug/crime gang in ulster is either controlled or infiltrated by one or more british security agencies. even if they werent loyalist do not have the same support or structures to engage in the type of insurgencethat the IRA did for decades. they certainly couldnt run any real effective campaign without the help of the british.

Loyalism became powerful in ulster in the 80' and 90's when their organisations were restructured and re-armed by the british and NI security agencies. This was to allow them to take controll of the luctrivtive drugs trade and so pay their way, and so that they could then be used as proxy assasians to 'take out' troublesome republicans, be they political or paramilitary.Though loyalist otherwise just killed catholics at random.

This new policy proved particulary effective in the murders of human rights lawyers Pat Finuncane and Rosemary Nelson. Though everyone knew that loyalists did not have the expertise to plan and carry out such high profile attacks they could still be used to claim responsiblity and keep the spotlight off the british sectret services who actually were behind thee murders.

Not only were they (and indeed they still are) allowed to act with impunity they were actively assisted by british forces who in turn were able to keep their hands 'clean' after the earlier 'shoot to kill' policy (summary execution of republicans by the ruc and british army) becasme a PR disatster and fertile propagande for republicans.

So its highly unlikley loyalists would be able to run any sort of sustained campaign without british help its even more unlikely they would get it. On the other hand many irish people are gald of the border to keep them seperate from the horrible ogres like ian paisley and co.

[Windy]

barstool wrote: Every loyalist drug/crime gang in ulster is either controlled or infiltrated by one or more british security agencies. even if they werent loyalist do not have the same support or structures to engage in the type of insurgencethat the IRA did for decades. they certainly couldnt run any real effective campaign without the help of the british.

Loyalism became powerful in ulster in the 80' and 90's when their organisations were restructured and re-armed by the british and NI security agencies. This was to allow them to take controll of the luctrivtive drugs trade and so pay their way, and so that they could then be used as proxy assasians to 'take out' troublesome republicans, be they political or paramilitary.Though loyalist otherwise just killed catholics at random.

This new policy proved particulary effective in the murders of human rights lawyers Pat Finuncane and Rosemary Nelson. Though everyone knew that loyalists did not have the expertise to plan and carry out such high profile attacks they could still be used to claim responsiblity and keep the spotlight off the british sectret services who actually were behind thee murders.

Not only were they (and indeed they still are) allowed to act with impunity they were actively assisted by british forces who in turn were able to keep their hands 'clean' after the earlier 'shoot to kill' policy (summary execution of republicans by the ruc and british army) becasme a PR disatster and fertile propagande for republicans.

So its highly unlikley loyalists would be able to run any sort of sustained campaign without british help its even more unlikely they would get it. On the other hand many irish people are gald of the border to keep them seperate from the horrible ogres like ian paisley and co.

Well thats utter crap, for a start there are plently of accounts of the British Secret Services starting gang wars (for lack of a better term) between the loyalists and nationalists by moving bombs etc. just to stop them killing innocent people for a change. Books like 50 dead men walking (IRA informant, and I believe Andy MacNabs autobiography all say this.

Do you have any sources for your claims, other than www.IRApropagandaonlybelievedbyfools.com?

The problem with Northern Ireland is that everyone is sick of them, we (Brits) want nothing to do with them and neither do most of Eire. Its full of racist idiots and quite fankly if the IRA hadn't started bombing us we would have got rid of it years ago.

BTW, its not a occupation if most of the population wants you there.

[maxtsu]

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: King Henry II landed in Eire in 1132, and Ireland was NOT a country, like England and Scotland before it, it was a set of kingdoms.

Why nationalist romantics want to hark back to a 'free Ireland' that they have never had since 1132 is tragic.

I think 'free Ireland' defines free of to determine your own head of state. And that you are not a subject to an english monachary.

[Irish Gal]

'The problem with Northern Ireland is that everyone is sick of them, we (Brits) want nothing to do with them and neither do most of Eire. '

Ill go with this.

I dont want Northern Ireland to be part of Ireland. Its full of idiots.

Im proud of Ireland and its people and I dont want the northerners giving us a bad name.

Let the English keep them.
Northern Irelands beautiful, but its not worth absorbing so many arseholes.

[MoscowMatt]

Sorry, not really up to scratch on Irish politics, so this idea is probably crap, but why not just make NI a country in it's own right. i.e not under the control of London or Dublin. Yes I know there are those in NI who want to be part of the ROI and those who want to stay British, but what the hell, just have your own country and get on with it. Sheesh would it really be that hard for you guys?!!!!

[Pebble]

MoscowMatt wrote: Sorry, not really up to scratch on Irish politics, so this idea is probably crap, but why not just make NI a country in it's own right. i.e not under the control of London or Dublin. Yes I know there are those in NI who want to be part of the ROI and those who want to stay British, but what the hell, just have your own country and get on with it. Sheesh would it really be that hard for you guys?!!!!

Funnily enough, I don't think there's actually much support for that option, it isn't really a struggle for independance.

[Irish Gal]

There are a few MPs for independance, but they dont have much support.

[Alchymical]

Harmony and Windy... you GO girls!!!
I say move the loyalists to somewhere unimportant and equally dire...
suggest Birmingham...
can the accents get any worse? We'll see...

Big thumbs up for a united Ireland under british illuminati world rule...
owned.

[De Bhaldraithe]

MoscowMatt wrote: Sorry, not really up to scratch on Irish politics, so this idea is probably crap, but why not just make NI a country in it's own right. i.e not under the control of London or Dublin. Yes I know there are those in NI who want to be part of the ROI and those who want to stay British, but what the hell, just have your own country and get on with it. Sheesh would it really be that hard for you guys?!!!!

Yes it would. I live in the **** and there are far too many arseholes living off the generous British welfare state for the place to cope on its own. It isn't financially feasable for "Northern Ireland" to exist as its own country.

That is why the British government wants sweet FA to do with us and the Irish government don't want to take on the burden likewise. Fair play to them, neither would I!!!


Quote: BTW, its not a occupation if most of the population wants you there

The only reason it ever has been "the most of the population" is because of the well suited fixing of the border, well suited for the Brits and the dictative Unionist regime that was in place, as happened in the six counties with even council borders and arguably still occurs.....



Also could some of you folks please stop referring to the place as Ulster. There are nine counties in Ulster, three of which are in Éire. The Occupied Six Counties or even "Northern Ireland" or even Norn Iron if you like, but definitely not Ulster.

[The_Right_Honourable]

Don't care. As soon as you say "Occupation" is say "Shut up and go case some leprechauns...".

Nationalists live in fantasy land.

[De Bhaldraithe]

The_Right_Honourable wrote: Don't care. As soon as you say "Occupation" is say "Shut up and go case some leprechauns...".

Nationalists live in fantasy land.

What exactly is that remark in reference to?