Political Crossfire Forums

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Islam includes the idea of free will, allah given. If allah gives each human independent free will, then it is not for another human to take away. What arrogance would be it be for a human to take away a gift from Allah?

Thus humans can execersie their free will, as long as they don't away the free will of others. Otherwise they too would be taking away a gift from god. Thus a true Muslim will not prohibit, even through the government, anyone from doing whatever they want as long as they don't harm anyone else. This is allah's perogative.

Thus a true Muslim must be a political libertarian. They must campaign purely for freedom. They must abide by the non-initiation of force principle, otherwise they are rejecting allah.

If they vote for any party other than libertarian then they are forsaking allah.

fourtysixandtwo

Reason wrote: Islam includes the idea of free will, allah given. If allah gives each human independent free will, then it is not for another human to take away. What arrogance would be it be for a human to take away a gift from Allah?

Thus humans can execersie their free will, as long as they don't away the free will of others. Otherwise they too would be taking away a gift from god. Thus a true Muslim will not prohibit, even through the government, anyone from doing whatever they want as long as they don't harm anyone else. This is allah's perogative.

Thus a true Muslim must be a political libertarian. They must campaign purely for freedom. They must abide by the non-initiation of force principle, otherwise they are rejecting allah.

If they vote for any party other than libertarian then they are forsaking allah.

You are a wrong and evil man to force someone to vote either way according to their religious views. They are free willed and can vote as they will. YOU on the other hand are a manipulator of this Faith and should be treated so. A follower of Islam can have whatever political ideology they wish, THEY are the judges of weather or not they are offending God.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote:
You are a wrong and evil man to force someone to vote either way according to their religious views.

I'm not forcing them, their religious views should be forcing them. I'm simply highlighting that fact, otherwise they aren't true Muslims.

Quote: They are free willed and can vote as they will.

They are, and so they can vote as they want. However if they vote to disregard other people's free will (as any vote but libertarian would) then they are not true Muslims and aren't close to allah.

Quote: U on the other hand are a manipulator of this Faith and should be treated so.

I'm just pointing out the logical conclusion of their wonderful faith - the conclusion is wonderful.

Quote: THEY are the judges of weather or not they are offending God.

No God is the judge....and if they break god's will (everyone having free will) then god will punish them.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:05 am Post subject:

Reason wrote: Quote:
You are a wrong and evil man to force someone to vote either way according to their religious views.

I'm not forcing them, their religious views should be forcing them. I'm simply highlighting that fact, otherwise they aren't true Muslims.

Quote: They are free willed and can vote as they will.

They are, and so they can vote as they want. However if they vote to disregard other people's free will (as any vote but libertarian would) then they are not true Muslims and aren't close to allah.

Quote: U on the other hand are a manipulator of this Faith and should be treated so.

I'm just pointing out the logical conclusion of their wonderful faith - the conclusion is wonderful.

Quote: THEY are the judges of weather or not they are offending God.

No God is the judge....and if they break god's will (everyone having free will) then god will punish them.

While God is the final judge they must decide if they are offending God or not. You are taking advantage of thier religious beliefs to fill your own political agenda. They are the ones that may choose if something is right or not, free will doesn't mean you should do whatever you want in the first place.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: You are taking advantage of thier religious beliefs to fill your own political agenda.

I'm not. I'm simply demonstarting how we (true Muslims and I) should be allies in politics.
Quote:
They are the ones that may choose if something is right or not, free will doesn't mean you should do whatever you want in the first place.

it doesn't mean that you should do whatever you want, it does mean that you can do whatever you want. If a human restricts this (either through the government like tax, or drug prohibition or through private means like theft or murder) then they are breaking god's will.

I won't be the one to punish them...allah will.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

If you mean freedom of speech, religion, race, want/need, security, and so forth, then you might have a good point. But you contradicted yourself AGAIN:

If they vote for any party other than libertarian then they are forsaking allah.

God did give us free will. But he didn't give it to us to deny His existence. He gave it to us to chose between right and wrong, and what's good or bad. If what you're trying to say is that every other party doesn't abide by Islamic teachings, you need to rebuff your argument a bit more. :?

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: If you mean freedom of speech, religion, race, want/need, security, and so forth, then you might have a good point. But you contradicted yourself AGAIN:

None of the parties support those, so there's no contradiction....

Quote:
God did give us free will. But he didn't give it to us to deny His existence. He gave it to us to chose between right and wrong, and what's good or bad. If what you're trying to say is that every other party doesn't abide by Islamic teachings, you need to rebuff your argument a bit more.

He did, so any other part than libertarian (parties that infringe on one's freedom/free will) go against allah.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

So, libertarian is the best "party" for us?

Convince me a bit more. I need to see some evidence (no offense).

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: So, libertarian is the best "party" for us?

Convince me a bit more. I need to see some evidence (no offense).

it's the only party that does not attack your freedom/free will. It has one main guiding principle: the non-initiation of violence. Thus murder is banned because it is the initiation of violence, but speech is not. Forcing someone into your religion is banned, but consensual religious practice is not In other words anything is allowed as long as it does not take away god's gift of free will.

The religious amongst us believe that god will punish people for sinning, and that for human's to take that role would be supreme arrogance. To take god's gift from another human, the gift of free will, is a sin.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject:

Liberation also support homosexuality. Read the Koran and you will see the Muslim view on this...

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6939 Location: Ohio

fourtysixandtwo wrote: Liberation also support homosexuality. Read the Koran and you will see the Muslim view on this...

Actually, Libertarians neither support nor condemn it (as far as the law goes).

Other than that, there is no reason a Libertarian would not let himself be bigoted towards gays.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject:

Demonic Spoon wrote: fourtysixandtwo wrote: Liberation also support homosexuality. Read the Koran and you will see the Muslim view on this...

Actually, Libertarians neither support nor condemn it (as far as the law goes).

Other than that, there is no reason a Libertarian would not let himself be bigoted towards gays.

Exactly, the fact that they don't condemn homosexuality goes against the teachings of God.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6939 Location: Ohio

Not really. Any Libertarian can condemn it as they wish, it just means that, as a party, we do not condemn it.

Although this is an idiotic thread. Links between religion and politics=not there.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject:

Demonic Spoon wrote: Not really. Any Libertarian can condemn it as they wish, it just means that, as a party, we do not condemn it.

Although this is an idiotic thread. Links between religion and politics=not there.

If they were to truly condemn it they would no longer be a liberation. If i am correct liberations believe in some extreme personal freedoms. Prohibiting them would violate their ideology. So if one is a liberation the belief that one should restrict someone's sexual activites is wrong, correct?

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6939 Location: Ohio

Gah...

Libertarians beleive that someone can believe whatever they want. A libertarian could denounce homosexuality, etc. but not want to limit their freedoms, etc... Islam does not demand that gays are killed or are made into slaves, as far as I know.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Exactly, the fact that they don't condemn homosexuality goes against the teachings of God.

Your personal beliefs are yours - ou have free will, but you can't use the government to subvert other people's god given free will.

Psycho Sid · Joined: 31 Dec 2005 Posts: 18

Reason:

"Thus a true Muslim will not prohibit, even through the government, anyone from doing whatever they want as long as they don't harm anyone else. This is allah's perogative. "

Theocracy is an integral part of Islam, and well as the Hisbah (roughly "Vice Police"), so it's hard to say that Islam allows people to fornicate, commit adultery or pose nude under the pretext of 'free will'.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

This is a weird thread. :lol: