Political Crossfire Forums

Prince Kassad · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: Mohammed and violence

Someone told me that only Muslim extremists support the use of violence. But wouldn't that make Mohammed himself an extremist?

I understand of course that the moderate Muslims in the US don't believe in holy war, but many of the third world Muslims do. :!:

So what are your thoughts on this? :?

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Mohammed and violence

Prince Kassad wrote: Someone told me that only Muslim extremists support the use of violence. But wouldn't that make Mohammed himself an extremist?

I understand of course that the moderate Muslims in the US don't believe in holy war, but many of the third world Muslims do. :!:

So what are your thoughts on this? :?

First of all, what do you basicly know about Prophet Muhammed?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

What you fail to realize, Kassad, is that the actions of an individual do not reflect on the beliefs of a group, such as Islam and those who follow it. Wow, I said that many times already. I think I should put it as my sig.

Muhammad (PBUH) wasn't an extremist. Don't listen to those who are trying to distort Islam.

I suggest you read more before posting such controversy.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6939 Location: Ohio

He's asking about the fighting that Mohammed did.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

If that's what he's asking for...

Muhammad (PBUH) fought against the Qureysh because THEY were attacking HIM and HIS FOLLOWERS. They have done many injustices towards Muslims, from killing them to desecrating them.Muhammad's actions in battle were for the defense of Islam, not for bloodshed, if that's what you mean.

Muhammad (Peace be upon him) got to a point where he had to retake Mecca for the Muslims. When he entered Mecca, no opposition met him. Every Qureysh tribe member was locked up inside his/her house. Now look at the wonder of Islam and its teachings: instead of going into every house and beating its "cowardly" inhabitants to death, Muhammad (PBUH) granted amnesty to those who opposed him, and forgave them for their past sins! Wow... Now, tell me that was extremist and "terroristic" of him. You can't argue: it's the peaceful message of Islam. Such a beautiful action brings tears to my eyes when I think of why many of those who are extremely biased against Islam call us "extremists." The actions of an individual do not reflect the beliefs of a group. That's why I think they should stop accusing Islam of giving birth to these extremists.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1634

i agree with moath

Lowro8d6 · Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 252 Location: Phoenix

Moath wrote: If that's what he's asking for...

Muhammad (PBUH) fought against the Qureysh because THEY were attacking HIM and HIS FOLLOWERS. They have done many injustices towards Muslims, from killing them to desecrating them.Muhammad's actions in battle were for the defense of Islam, not for bloodshed, if that's what you mean.

Muhammad (Peace be upon him) got to a point where he had to retake Mecca for the Muslims. When he entered Mecca, no opposition met him. Every Qureysh tribe member was locked up inside his/her house. Now look at the wonder of Islam and its teachings: instead of going into every house and beating its "cowardly" inhabitants to death, Muhammad (PBUH) granted amnesty to those who opposed him, and forgave them for their past sins! Wow... Now, tell me that was extremist and "terroristic" of him. You can't argue: it's the peaceful message of Islam. Such a beautiful action brings tears to my eyes when I think of why many of those who are extremely biased against Islam call us "extremists." The actions of an individual do not reflect the beliefs of a group. That's why I think they should stop accusing Islam of giving birth to these extremists.

Wasnt he stealing from caravans that were from mecca and thats why they attacked him. Then you have the slaughtering of a tribe of jews because he said they were fighting against him when they really werent. He dug a trench for this purpose and killed the woman men and children and had their head brought to him. He married a 6 year old and supposively didnt have sexual relations with her until she was 9. When he went to mecca he destroyed all of their pagen stuff, not real tolerant is he.

http://www.markriebling.com/archives/00000162.html

Quote: 2. Kill those who do not accept Mohammed’s teachings. The Koran excoriates Jews, and states explicitly: “Take not the Jews and thes Christians for friends.” (V, 51). The text does counsel tolerance as a tactic: prospective converts should be given the impression that Mohammed teaches: “Let there be no violence in religion.” The Koran thus counsels: “Give a respite to the unbelievers. Deal thou gently with them for a while.” But if, after a decent interval, unbelievers refuse to convert, they must be killed wherever they are found: “And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush.” Again: “Believers! Wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous.”

Mohammed does say: “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. All loveth not aggressors.” But as Mohammed himself made clear in Medina and in Mecca, war against unbelievers, or the murder of those who criticize Islam with words, is not considered aggression; it is considered legitimate self-defense.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

Wasnt he stealing from caravans that were from mecca and thats why they attacked him. Then you have the slaughtering of a tribe of jews because he said they were fighting against him when they really werent. He dug a trench for this purpose and killed the woman men and children and had their head brought to him. He married a 6 year old and supposively didnt have sexual relations with her until she was 9. When he went to mecca he destroyed all of their pagen stuff, not real tolerant is he.

Whatever source you got it from, I must discredit. Those are the same sources that accuse Islam of being a religion of violence than a religion of peace. I've seen the bibliography of the link you put. The bibliography further supports my claim. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was under extreme harassment from the Jews and other tribes near Mecca and Medina. They even massacred a large group of Muslims while they were asleep in front of the Kaaba in the silence of the night. Plus, Muhammad (PBUH) never stole from any caravan. This is nonsense and was never stated in the Seerat Il Nabawi (the complete compilation of the Prophet's life, from beginning to end). Neither was his "merciless" behavior that you accuse him of. And during that time, marriages at younger ages was quite common. Now why did he destroy those idols? Because they were in front of the Kaa'ba, and they were thus desecrating Islam's holiest site. Of course they had to be removed. He didn't go all around Arabia and destroy idols like crazy. He conquered Mecca without a shedding of one drop of blood. Just to show you how merciful he is.
Go to http://www.islam.com/ to learn more. Please don't quote biased Anti-Islamic sources.

2. Kill those who do not accept Mohammed’s teachings. The Koran excoriates Jews, and states explicitly: “Take not the Jews and thes Christians for friends.” (V, 51). The text does counsel tolerance as a tactic: prospective converts should be given the impression that Mohammed teaches: “Let there be no violence in religion.” The Koran thus counsels: “Give a respite to the unbelievers. Deal thou gently with them for a while.” But if, after a decent interval, unbelievers refuse to convert, they must be killed wherever they are found: “And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush.” Again: “Believers! Wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous.”

Mohammed does say: “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Allah loveth not aggressors.” But as Mohammed himself made clear in Medina and in Mecca, war against unbelievers, or the murder of those who criticize Islam with words, is not considered aggression; it is considered legitimate self-defense.

This story about the poetess Asma is under great controversy.
And the Koran, FYI, should not be understood in its most explicit form. When it says "Take not Christians and Jews for friends", it means that you shouldn't take Christians and Jews as friends and leave your fellow Muslims behind so as to abandon them. And another thing: those menacingly-appearing verses of the Koran are actions justified IN SELF-DEFENSE. Whoever quoted them overlooked the verses that it's linked to. And as I said before in many threads, the Koran can NOT BE UNDERSTOOD FROM IT'S LITERAL CONTEXT. That's why we have interpreters who help us.

Please do more research before coming to attack my religion.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

And just to show that Muhammad (PBUH) was not the barbarian terrorist that many of you think he is:

When he to the city of Taif alone to preach to its people, they refused to listen to him and instead threw rocks at him. Nobody knew who he was. They just beat the heck out of him. He was bleeding... almost to death. But he was pretty much alive after that onslaught. He could have thrown stones back and cursed at them just like they swore at him...
But look at the beauty of Islam. The same beauty of humanity and mercy exhibited in Christianity and Judaism as well as many other world religions. Instead of fighting back... he stayed silent. He didn't bend down to pick even one pebble to toss at them. He didn't even open his mouth once to say something bad to them. He never even thought about it.

We know more about the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) than you anti-Islamists do. So, next time you criticise my religion, be considerate: how does it feel like to have your beliefs criticised? Of course, you know the answer. NO. So, next time, I suggest you guys respect yourselves and type not one letter against Islamic teachings and the actions of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) before hearing about them from a True Muslim or reading about them in an ISLAMIC BOOK, NOT AN ANTI-ISLAMIC BOOK.

Lowro8d6 · Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 252 Location: Phoenix

Moath wrote: Wasnt he stealing from caravans that were from mecca and thats why they attacked him. Then you have the slaughtering of a tribe of jews because he said they were fighting against him when they really werent. He dug a trench for this purpose and killed the woman men and children and had their head brought to him. He married a 6 year old and supposively didnt have sexual relations with her until she was 9. When he went to mecca he destroyed all of their pagen stuff, not real tolerant is he.

Whatever source you got it from, I must discredit. Those are the same sources that accuse Islam of being a religion of violence than a religion of peace. I've seen the bibliography of the link you put. The bibliography further supports my claim. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was under extreme harassment from the Jews and other tribes near Mecca and Medina. They even massacred a large group of Muslims while they were asleep in front of the Kaaba in the silence of the night. Plus, Muhammad (PBUH) never stole from any caravan. This is nonsense and was never stated in the Seerat Il Nabawi (the complete compilation of the Prophet's life, from beginning to end). Neither was his "merciless" behavior that you accuse him of. And during that time, marriages at younger ages was quite common. Now why did he destroy those idols? Because they were in front of the Kaa'ba, and they were thus desecrating Islam's holiest site. Of course they had to be removed. He didn't go all around Arabia and destroy idols like crazy. He conquered Mecca without a shedding of one drop of blood. Just to show you how merciful he is.
Go to http://www.islam.com/ to learn more. Please don't quote biased Anti-Islamic sources.

2. Kill those who do not accept Mohammed’s teachings. The Koran excoriates Jews, and states explicitly: “Take not the Jews and thes Christians for friends.” (V, 51). The text does counsel tolerance as a tactic: prospective converts should be given the impression that Mohammed teaches: “Let there be no violence in religion.” The Koran thus counsels: “Give a respite to the unbelievers. Deal thou gently with them for a while.” But if, after a decent interval, unbelievers refuse to convert, they must be killed wherever they are found: “And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush.” Again: “Believers! Wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous.”

Mohammed does say: “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Allah loveth not aggressors.” But as Mohammed himself made clear in Medina and in Mecca, war against unbelievers, or the murder of those who criticize Islam with words, is not considered aggression; it is considered legitimate self-defense.

This story about the poetess Asma is under great controversy.
And the Koran, FYI, should not be understood in its most explicit form. When it says "Take not Christians and Jews for friends", it means that you shouldn't take Christians and Jews as friends and leave your fellow Muslims behind so as to abandon them. And another thing: those menacingly-appearing verses of the Koran are actions justified IN SELF-DEFENSE. Whoever quoted them overlooked the verses that it's linked to. And as I said before in many threads, the Koran can NOT BE UNDERSTOOD FROM IT'S LITERAL CONTEXT. That's why we have interpreters who help us.

Please do more research before coming to attack my religion.

No its directly from Life of Mohammed the book. Im not trying to make Islam look bad I'm just stating some facts that Mohammed did. I mean Muslims dont believe Mohammed was Divine, they believe he was a regular human being like everyone else. I'm just trying to say he wasn't as nice as everyone thinks. Sorry if its not politicall correct but he did raid caravans. He raided a caravan that was going to Mecca from Syria and Mecca attacked him. Then he only had like 300 guys vs 1000 other and they one. Everyone thought he had to be a prophet from allah if this happend. Then after the fighting he accused Jews to be fighting against him when they were neutral. He killed like 500-600 of them. Dug a trench for this purpose.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

No its directly from Life of Mohammed the book. Im not trying to make Islam look bad I'm just stating some facts that Mohammed did. I mean Muslims dont believe Mohammed was Divine, they believe he was a regular human being like everyone else. I'm just trying to say he wasn't as nice as everyone thinks. Sorry if its not politicall correct but he did raid caravans. He raided a caravan that was going to Mecca from Syria and Mecca attacked him. Then he only had like 300 guys vs 1000 other and they one. Everyone thought he had to be a prophet from allah if this happend. Then after the fighting he accused Jews to be fighting against him when they were neutral. He killed like 500-600 of them. Dug a trench for this purpose.

You have no idea about what the Jews have done at his time. They treated him the same way they (the Jews) treated Jesus. They were IN NO WAY NEUTRAL. They spat at him, made his life an almost complete misery, made Muslims feel bad, and were directly responsible for the deaths of several innocent Muslims as well. I know the Life of Muhammad (PBUH) book; the one compiled by Muslims. If you haven't realised, they were also a plague to Medina at that time. They were the first ones to attack the Prophet (PBUH) in Medina. The Jews, as I said, massacred the Muslims while they were asleep one night in Mecca. And it was their deception that got the Muslims angered. And the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) didn't raid those caravans going between Syria and Mecca. Abu Sufyan, the leader of the caravans, opposed Muhammad (PBUH) but he never was attacked by him. And that story about the Jews is twisted. He killed men. He didn't kill the women or children. Those were the rules of war at that time. Kill the men and spare the women and children. All sides abided by this rule. And the Prophet (PBUH) was a very peaceful man. You just stick to the seemingly bad side of the Prophet (PBUH) because you feel that you can base his actions on the actions of those "Islamic" terrorists......

And about the boldened phrase, that's wrong. Completely. You're mixing up stuff. I used to do that as well before having the life story of the Prophet (PBUH) explained to me by my religion teacher.

Lowro8d6 · Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 252 Location: Phoenix

Moath wrote: No its directly from Life of Mohammed the book. Im not trying to make Islam look bad I'm just stating some facts that Mohammed did. I mean Muslims dont believe Mohammed was Divine, they believe he was a regular human being like everyone else. I'm just trying to say he wasn't as nice as everyone thinks. Sorry if its not politicall correct but he did raid caravans. He raided a caravan that was going to Mecca from Syria and Mecca attacked him. Then he only had like 300 guys vs 1000 other and they one. Everyone thought he had to be a prophet from allah if this happend. Then after the fighting he accused Jews to be fighting against him when they were neutral. He killed like 500-600 of them. Dug a trench for this purpose.

You have no idea about what the Jews have done at his time. They treated him the same way they (the Jews) treated Jesus. They were IN NO WAY NEUTRAL. They spat at him, made his life an almost complete misery, made Muslims feel bad, and were directly responsible for the deaths of several innocent Muslims as well. I know the Life of Muhammad (PBUH) book; the one compiled by Muslims. If you haven't realised, they were also a plague to Medina at that time. They were the first ones to attack the Prophet (PBUH) in Medina. The Jews, as I said, massacred the Muslims while they were asleep one night in Mecca. And it was their deception that got the Muslims angered. And the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) didn't raid those caravans going between Syria and Mecca. Abu Sufyan, the leader of the caravans, opposed Muhammad (PBUH) but he never was attacked by him. And that story about the Jews is twisted. He killed men. He didn't kill the women or children. Those were the rules of war at that time. Kill the men and spare the women and children. All sides abided by this rule. And the Prophet (PBUH) was a very peaceful man. You just stick to the seemingly bad side of the Prophet (PBUH) because you feel that you can base his actions on the actions of those "Islamic" terrorists......

And about the boldened phrase, that's wrong. Completely. You're mixing up stuff. I used to do that as well before having the life story of the Prophet (PBUH) explained to me by my religion teacher.

Im not trying to base his actions on terrorists. Im just stating facts. You can either choose to believe it or not. He wasnt really that peaceful.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

Im not trying to base his actions on terrorists. Im just stating facts. You can either choose to believe it or not. He wasnt really that peaceful.

He was more peaceful than anyone else at that time. In fact, he was VERY peaceful. The extremity of some of his actions were retribusive. He never started any conflicts or battles.

Arabia at his time was already plagued with belligerence, tribes fighting each other for no reason, crimes so horrible that hearing about them in detail would make your neck hairs stand on end, and other such calamity. He brought order to Arabia and truly united the people under a banner: the banner of Islam.

I wouldn't call them facts, because they're missing a lot of points.

Dagger · Joined: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 459 Location: Vancouver BC

Amen. I havent been here for long time. Just gotta say Moath and Paraoh you guys are doing a great job.

Psycho Sid · Joined: 31 Dec 2005 Posts: 18

Prince Kassad:

"Someone told me that only Muslim extremists support the use of violence. But wouldn't that make Mohammed himself an extremist?

I understand of course that the moderate Muslims in the US don't believe in holy war, but many of the third world Muslims do.

So what are your thoughts on this? "

It depends on your definition of 'violence'. Islam promotes self-defense (whic is violent by necessity), so Islam is not against all forms of violence.

theinfamy · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 19 Location: Cincinatti

I hope some of you know that there are a lot of sites out there that say there islamic but arent. they are made just to criticize and discredit it. It's kinda sad when people are paying money to host a site for something like that. Thats the real evil right there.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

I hope some of you know that there are a lot of sites out there that say there islamic but arent. they are made just to criticize and discredit it. It's kinda sad when people are paying money to host a site for something like that. Thats the real evil right there.

Wow, infamy. I'm starting to like you every second. :) Good post. :tu:

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

One more point before people forget about this thread. This is about the alleged "massacre of the Jews" by the Muslims that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did in his lifetime...

When the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) arrived in Medina, he was welcomed by every inhabitant there. Due to the power of Islam at the time, it reached Medina and many people were already Muslim before the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) even arrived at Medina. When the Muhajireen (those who undertook the Hijrah, or flight to Medina) made it there, they were welcomed by their Ansar brothers in Islam. Of course, this is just background info on the Prophet's (PBUH) coming to the city...

When the Qureysh heard of this "threat", they mobilized to march into Medina and attack it by force. The Muslims were under deep persecution in Mecca. These events finally incited the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to undraw a sword for the first time in his life to battle these aggressors, at the age of 50. This is a wonderment to many: he never unsheathed a weapon to attack the condemners of Islam at the time for ten whole years after the Revelation. Why is it so, then, that many people do not look at the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as a peaceful person? He was peaceful by nature, no doubt about that. But one can not let aggressors take over... one must use violence to resist those who purport it.

In doing so, the Jewish tribesmen of Medina formed an alliance with the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) against the aggressive Qureysh. The two sides met at Badr, a historic battlefield. That was where the Muslims fought their first battle against the aggressors who would stop at nothing to shut out the light of Islam...

But things got a little bit complicated for the Muslims, who found themselves facing two sides, not one...

The Muslims, trusting the Jews, were fighting side-by-side their newly-found "comrades"... that is, until the Jews tricked the Muslims and betrayed them, turning against their allies and fought against them. No Jews were killed by the Muslims during the conflict. After the Battle of Badr was won by the Muslims, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) turned toward the treasonous Jews. "What do you have to say for yourselves?," he asked. The Jews spoke up and told the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) that if they were going to get punished for their wrongdoings, they would be punished by their own laws, not the Islamic law...

And according to their laws: Treason is punishable by DEATH.

The tribesmen involved in the war were lined up and their heads were chopped off systematically. Of course, this is not a pogrom-style massacre going on, but instead a punishment by the Jews on themselves. The women and children were spared.

So, in taking a look at this argument, one can deduce that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not wantonly massacre those Jews. In other words...

Those Jews asked for it. They wanted to be governed by their laws, and they lost their lives to this judgement.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: The Muslims, trusting the Jews, were fighting side-by-side their newly-found "comrades"... that is, until the Jews tricked the Muslims and betrayed them, turning against their allies and fought against them. No Jews were killed by the Muslims during the conflict.

??? this is nonsensical...you state that the Jews and Muslims fought on the battelfield, and that the Jews lost yet none were killed...

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16383 Location: On Earth

??? this is nonsensical...you state that the Jews and Muslims fought on the battelfield, and that the Jews lost yet none were killed...

I did not say that the Jews lost, Reason. I said that they turned against their Muslim comrades who were too busy fighting the Qureysh, but then the Muslims noticed the treachery: some Muslims were killed as a result by the Jews. The Jews and Muslims were fighting on the same side. Helloo! I couldn't have said it more clearer: the Jews formed an ALLIANCE with the Muslims. Even though the victors of the Battle of Badr were the Muslims, the Jews, powerless in front of the victors of the battle, knew what was coming to them. They blamed themselves for it, and in an outrage, ordered the Prophet (PBUH) to judge them for their treason.

As I said before:
And according to their laws: Treason is punishable by DEATH.

And Reason, leave this thread until you know what you're talking about.