Political Crossfire Forums

[johnz]

In Britain's Courts?

In Britain's courts, does it matter if you're black or white?

The sentences handed out for two recent murders suggests an unexpected discrepancy

TWO identical acts of kindness that led two young men to violent deaths have been recounted before the criminal courts in the past fortnight.

Anthony Walker and Christopher Yates, concerned about female friends late at night, walked with them to bus stops in Liverpool and London respectively to make sure that the women got home safely. Both were set upon, not far from homes they shared with their mothers, by other young men from their own neighbourhoods who had been drinking heavily or taking drugs.

In Huyton, Liverpool, Mr Walker, 18, who was black, was attacked by Paul Taylor and Michael Barton and killed with a savage blow to the head with an ice axe. They were sentenced to at least 24 years and 18 years, respectively. In Barking, East London, Mr Yates, 30, a white man, was knocked to the ground and kicked and stamped on by Sajid Zulfiqar, Zahid Bashir and Imran Maqsood.

Every bone in his face was broken in a ferocious attack. Afterwards, Zulfiqar boasted in Urdu: “We killed the white boy. That will teach a white man to stick his nose in Paki business.”

But while a judge in Liverpool decided that Mr Walker’s murderers were racists — and therefore liable to more severe jail terms — an Old Bailey judge decided that Mr Yates’s murderers had not been motivated by racial hatred. Zulfiqar, Bashir and Maqsood were sentenced to 15 years in prison, the minimum tariff for murder.

The similarities between the two murder cases, and the differences in their outcomes, has left the Yates family feeling that it has been treated unequally. “I understand what Mrs Walker and her family are going through. We are going through exactly the same thing,” Rose Yates, Mr Yates’s mother, told The Times.

“But it appears to me that we have experienced a different measure of justice than they have experienced.”

Mrs Yates, a thoughtful woman who has taught children of many races and creeds, pondered long and hard before making this comment. Like Gee Walker, she sat through every day of her son’s killers’ trial. She heard how the three men who killed her son had also screamed racial abuse at a black man and carried out a violent assault on a second black man. In the end, Mrs Yates concluded “it seemed that they had something against everyone who was not of their own race”.

The judgments in the Walker and Yates cases reflect a reluctance by the authorities — police, prosecutors, judges and politicians — to recognise that ethnic minority groups can be perpetrators as well as victims of racism.

The question of anti-white racism makes the political class uncomfortable. But it is a very real phenomenon.

A Home Office report reveals that of the 22 homicides classified as racially motivated between 2001-04, the majority of victims (12 cases) were white.

There is growing anecdotal evidence of a more aggressive Asian youth culture which manifests itself in racist attacks against whites and blacks.

The increasing aggression is the result of the growing sense of victimisation and isolation felt by many in the Asian community. Young people from Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities feel victimised by police after the July 7 attacks; some are also fired by the rise of political Islam and anger over issues such as Iraq.

Shifting demographics in East London are also fuelling incidents. In Tower Hamlets and Newham, Asian communities sense encroachment from the growth of the City and Canary Wharf and the stirrings of gentrification since the successful 2012 Olympic bid.

There is resentment that unemployment levels remain high and incomes low in the Bangladeshi community while new middle-class immigrants push up house prices.

As a result, the tensions of the 1960s, when the poor white communities felt threatened by the influx of West Indian and Asian immigrants, are once more being raised, but this time it is the Asians who feel their community is imperilled by the white arrivals.

Elsewhere in the borough of Tower Hamlets, one police officer said that he had seen a rise in antisocial behaviour incidents which might be racially motivated.

He said: “We are seeing a new phenomenon. Asian gangs used to fight turf wars with one another. But there have been attacks on young, white professionals buying new properties here because they are seen as moving into a Bengali neighbourhood.”

It was in this fraught and changing environment that Mr Yates was murdered. A judge thinks his death was not the result of a racist attack. His mother begs to disagree.

But because of the discomfort such cases cause, there are few voices prepared to speak out in support of Mrs Yates.

The Commission for Racial Equality, asked about anti-white racism, said that there was little, if any, research on the issue. The London Borough of Barking & Dagenham, where Mr Yates lived, said its community cohesion unit did not want to comment.

People from minority communities are most likely to be victims of racist crime.

Results from the 2002-03 British Crime Survey show that less than 1 per cent of white people had experienced a crime that they thought was racially motivated. This compares with 2 per cent for the black community and 3 per cent among Asian groups.

But 1 per cent of whites amounts to a substantial number of people — and a growing problem.

THE RACIAL ELEMENTS

Ross Parker, 17, was beaten and stabbed to death in Peterborough in 2001. Racial tension was running high in the days after September 11. A judge said the killing had been “racist”. But the prosecution did not present the issue of racial motivation to the jury for fear of complicating the case. Shaied Nazir, Ahmed Ali Awan and Sarfraz Ali were jailed for murder.

Gavin Hopley, 19, was kicked to death by up to eight Asian men in Oldham in February 2003. His watch and chain were stolen and he died in hospital. Six men were convicted of violent disorder and theft offences but no one has been convicted of his murder.

Kriss Donald, 15, was abducted in Glasgow in March 2004, stabbed 13 times, doused in petrol and set alight. Daanish Zahid was found guilty of his abduction and murder in November last year. Three other defendants, who were returned to the UK from Pakistan, have been charged and await trial. It was alleged that Stathclyde Police had shelved an operation against Asian gang crime for fear of being perceived as racist.

[Jajo]

johnz wrote: In Britain's Courts?

In Britain's courts, does it matter if you're black or white?



There is one very important fact that is totaly missing from this, that is why the East London murders were not seen racialy motivated. The judge ruled this way due to the fact that the defendants had attacked other people that night of several differing ethnic backgrounds it was not a racist rampage but just a stupid drunken one. So over all by omiting this fact the article is being writen on a false premise.

[Windy]

Jajo wrote: johnz wrote: In Britain's Courts?

In Britain's courts, does it matter if you're black or white?



There is one very important fact that is totaly missing from this, that is why the East London murders were not seen racialy motivated. The judge ruled this way due to the fact that the defendants had attacked other people that night of several differing ethnic backgrounds it was not a racist rampage but just a stupid drunken one. So over all by omiting this fact the article is being writen on a false premise.

Exactly, the two Asian men also randomly attacked a black man and an Asian man. Just because they described the victim as a white man doesn't make it racist. If they attacked a attacked a woman and called her a b**** would that make it a sexist attack?

Barton and his mate attacked the guy solely because he was black and stuck an axe in his head because he was winning the fight.

[Showboat]

They should all be locked up for their natural born lives. No parole. The law is weak.

[98MustGT]

Hate crime legislation just further divides us.

Suppose the victim is half white, does the purpotrator get half the time required for a hate crime?

[DumbTeen]

Murders, be they racist or not, should all be punished. I see no reason however for the arbitrary distinction, based on perceived intent, of a "hate crime" VS a regular crime. If you want to jack up penalties for murder fine, but don't do something as arbitrary as (effectively) making murdering minorities more punishment-worthy than not.

Hate crime legislation only causes resentment in whites, it only makes minorities appear once again to need "special treatment" and are "more equal", or other gibberish.

(make no mistake, any racist murder NEEDS TO BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW, but there's no need to turn a physical crime into a thoughtcrime)

[Jajo]

DumbTeen wrote: Murders, be they racist or not, should all be punished. I see no reason however for the arbitrary distinction, based on perceived intent, of a "hate crime" VS a regular crime. If you want to jack up penalties for murder fine, but don't do something as arbitrary as (effectively) making murdering minorities more punishment-worthy than not.

Hate crime legislation only causes resentment in whites, it only makes minorities appear once again to need "special treatment" and are "more equal", or other gibberish.

(make no mistake, any racist murder NEEDS TO BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW, but there's no need to turn a physical crime into a thoughtcrime)

I disagree, the existence of 'hate crime' legislation is so that crimes which are done due to something over which the victim has no controll, the colour of there skin, are shown to be worse than those that display mitigating circumstances such as incitement or duress. The killing of a person because they are black has no logical reason however the killing of someone because they have slept with you mother and thrown dead cats on you drive has, but please do not think I am condoning murder I am just arguing that there are different types of it and as such differing sentences should be handed out to show that.

[tehjonny]

Whilst its true sometimes the hate and discrimination laws are rather *ahem* selectively applied, in this case the simple point is that the murder of Anthony Walker was racially motivated. Whilst the murder of Christopher yates was just a small (not to belittle it) part of a larger alcohol/drugs/stupidity driven spree of violence.

However to be honest murder is murder, the motivation for it shouldn't really be involved in the punishment. And yeah, even 24yrs for murder is pretty weak.

[lowchen]

Jajo wrote: DumbTeen wrote: Murders, be they racist or not, should all be punished. I see no reason however for the arbitrary distinction, based on perceived intent, of a "hate crime" VS a regular crime. If you want to jack up penalties for murder fine, but don't do something as arbitrary as (effectively) making murdering minorities more punishment-worthy than not.

Hate crime legislation only causes resentment in whites, it only makes minorities appear once again to need "special treatment" and are "more equal", or other gibberish.

(make no mistake, any racist murder NEEDS TO BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW, but there's no need to turn a physical crime into a thoughtcrime)

I disagree, the existence of 'hate crime' legislation is so that crimes which are done due to something over which the victim has no controll, the colour of there skin, are shown to be worse than those that display mitigating circumstances such as incitement or duress. The killing of a person because they are black has no logical reason however the killing of someone because they have slept with you mother and thrown dead cats on you drive has, but please do not think I am condoning murder I am just arguing that there are different types of it and as such differing sentences should be handed out to show that.

respectfully disagree. If a white person attacks me it doesnt matter whether he attacks cause Im of a different race or whether he attacks me cause he doesnt like my opinion. HE HAS ATTACKED ME. End of story. the hate crime legislation is another way of prioritizing one group's pain at the expense of another.

[AKAMad]

There is one simple reason why the CPS is reluctant to prosecute for hate crime is that it only covers race. They could claim that they killed them because they were Christians and turn themselves into Al Queda martyrs.
It pays to be subtle sometimes.

[spacta]

To be honest i don't care about the ins and outs of whether someone is black, white, a man or woman, culturally different to the perpetrator or not. Those who commit murder have to be punished for the intentions they had, and whether you call it a race hate crime or not, it really doesn't matter, but to assume that a race crime has been commited just because somone of a different race has attacked them is simply nonesense.

[bob.appleyard]

Two other events that have surfaced recently in the British media that raise the question: does it matter if you're black or white?

Quote: In a critical 400-page report, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said that the treatment given to Chris Alder, a 37-year-old black Falklands war veteran, by Humberside officers amounted to “unwitting racism”.

...

Mr Alder was arrested on April 1, 1998. He was knocked to the ground during a fight outside a nightclub and taken to hospital, but he became angry, difficult and uncooperative and was arrested for a breach of the peace.

At Queen’s Gardens police station in Hull he was found unconscious in the police van. He was carried to the custody suite, where he lay dying with his trousers around his ankles for 11 minutes as the entire scene was captured by CCTV. The report said: “The tapes record the desultory conversation of the officers and Mr Alder’s guttural last breaths.”

Forensic science techniques later found that there were “monkey noises” being made at the beginning of the officers’ shift and after Mr Alder’s death. In his report Mr Hardwick said: “If the racist connotations of these noises was not obvious to the officers, they should have been.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2106616,00.html

Quote: Scotland Yard is facing severe criticism and the threat of legal action after an attempt to prosecute a group of West End theatregoers collapsed in chaos yesterday. Leading theatrical figures mounted a protest after the arrest of O'Neill Crooks, a builder, his son Divanio, 23, and a family friend, Yasmin Adbi, 21, outside the Apollo Theatre in Soho last July.

...

The case collapsed before reaching trial when the prosecution could not produce its one independent witness. By contrast, the district judge, Michael Snow, sitting at Horseferry Road magistrates court, was told that the Crooks family would be supporting their case with six independent witnesses. The court was also told that "bad character" evidence would have been called in relation to one of the police officers concerned, Brona McManus, who claimed she was assaulted by Ms Adbi.

Jennifer Birch, the prosecutor, revealed that PC McManus had been involved in a case that had concluded last week with the officer being described by a district judge as an "incredible" witness. Ms Birch, who was also prosecutor for that case, told the magistrate that it had also involved allegations of an assault on PC McManus and that she had used her baton on both occasions. She acknowledged that the officer's testimony would amount to a "credibility matter".

Justin Cole, for Ms Adbi, said of the cases: "The similarities are quite remarkable: the use of the baton and the allegation that the same words were used."

After consulting senior officials at the Crown Prosecution Service, Ms Birch told the court that on seeing the witness statements for the defence, the crown had decided not to proceed.

Mr Crooks, of Camberwell, south London, said he would complain to the Independent Police Complaints Commission and might start a civil action. "The officers were so adamant that I was selling drugs. They were pushing me against the wall. I fought this case, even before we had a solicitor and a barrister, because I felt there had been total injustice."

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1737496,00.html

EDIT: oops, forgot links.

So yeah, racism of all shapes and sizes is alive and well in the UK.

[tehjonny]

Murder is murder, the motivation for the violence is neither here nor there.