Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: How about this portrait of the Meshiach?

The Suffering Servant.

What about it. If you look earlier in Isaiah, at the other servant songs, the servant is identified as the Jewish people, same here.

The Jewish people are identified by a capitalized "He" in Scripture?

Quote: Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,

And interceded for the transgressors.

The Jewish people bore the sin of the world and interceded for transgressors?


Very thin.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: How about this portrait of the Meshiach?

The Suffering Servant.

What about it. If you look earlier in Isaiah, at the other servant songs, the servant is identified as the Jewish people, same here.

The Jewish people are identified by a capitalized "He" in Scripture?

Quote: Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,

And interceded for the transgressors.
Remeber capitalization is a Christian interpretation. I am sure that the Jewish version is not capitalized.

Quote: The Jewish people bore the sin of the world and interceded for transgressors?


Very thin.

In a way yes. He was numbered with the transgressors, means that the Jews also sinned, which is why they bore the sins of the world.
You see when the nations sin against the Jews, the Jews are receiving the blows of their sinning, so in that manner, they are bearing the sins of the world. It idepends how you define bear.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: There are too many wholes in your argument

Yes. Too many "wholes". That's why I believe it.
Your words have this very special way of doing massive injustice to my sense of logic and reason.. :?

[Jonah]

cap'n queasy wrote: How about this portrait of the Meshiach?

The Suffering Servant.

Quote: Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,

And like a root out of parched ground;

He has no stately form or majesty

That we should look upon Him,

Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,

A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;

And like one from whom men hide their face

He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,

And our sorrows He carried;

Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,

And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,

Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all

To fall on Him.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,

Yet He did not open His mouth;

Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,

And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,

So He did not open His mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;

And as for His generation, who considered

That He was cut off out of the land of the living

For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,

Yet He was with a rich man in His death,

Because He had done no violence,

Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10 But the LORD was pleased

To crush Him, putting Him to grief;

If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,

He will see His offspring,

He will prolong His days,

And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,

He will see and be satisfied;

By His knowledge the Righteous One,

My Servant, will justify the many,

As He will bear their iniquities.


12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,

And He will divide the booty with the strong;

Because He poured out Himself to death,

And was numbered with the transgressors;

Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,

And interceded for the transgressors.


Hello, Mailech. Don't overlook Isaiah 53: 4 in the above text, "Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten of God, and afflicted."

"We" being the Jews considered Jesus stricken by G-d, smitten by him and afflicted because they thought he had blasphemed, in claiming to be G-d, which certainly fits the bill of a false prophet as you know. That is, of course, if it were really blasphemy. So he was "smitten by G-d" for supposed blasphemy, by their judgement. Those, then, were the wounds he received in the house of his brothers.

[Mailech]

Jonah wrote: Hello, Mailech. Don't overlook Isaiah 53: 4 in the above text, "Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten of God, and afflicted."

"We" being the Jews considered Jesus stricken by G-d, smitten by him and afflicted because they thought he had blasphemed, in claiming to be G-d, which certainly fits the bill of a false prophet as you know. That is, of course, if it were really blasphemy. So he was "smitten by G-d" for supposed blasphemy, by their judgement. Those, then, were the wounds he received in the house of his brothers.

Jonah, always a pleasure to hear from you.

That is one way of intepreting it. I interpret it, that the We are the Gentile nations. They view him the Jews as striken and afflicted, for that reason, they feel free to attack them.

And the truth is this has born out and been true in history. The Gentiles of Europe viewed the Jews as rejected by G-d and felt free to use them as a scapegoat and afflict them.

The wounds could very well refer to Jesus, but that would apply that he was in fact a false prophet based on the context of Zach 13

[Jonah]

Mailech wrote: Jonah wrote: Hello, Mailech. Don't overlook Isaiah 53: 4 in the above text, "Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten of God, and afflicted."

"We" being the Jews considered Jesus stricken by G-d, smitten by him and afflicted because they thought he had blasphemed, in claiming to be G-d, which certainly fits the bill of a false prophet as you know. That is, of course, if it were really blasphemy. So he was "smitten by G-d" for supposed blasphemy, by their judgement. Those, then, were the wounds he received in the house of his brothers.

Jonah, always a pleasure to hear from you.

That is one way of intepreting it. I interpret it, that the We are the Gentile nations. They view him the Jews as striken and afflicted, for that reason, they feel free to attack them.

And the truth is this has born out and been true in history. The Gentiles of Europe viewed the Jews as rejected by G-d and felt free to use them as a scapegoat and afflict them.

The wounds could very well refer to Jesus, but that would apply that he was in fact a false prophet based on the context of Zach 13

Yes, I can understand context-wise why you see it the way you do. The context seems to totally support what you say; I mean, why weave Messiah into this one?

Yet, why would a false prophet respond in the way described? Seems a little odd.

Also, why call the nation/s that has the Israelites be called the "Shepherd"?

[Mailech]

Jonah wrote: Mailech wrote: Jonah wrote: Hello, Mailech. Don't overlook Isaiah 53: 4 in the above text, "Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten of God, and afflicted."

"We" being the Jews considered Jesus stricken by G-d, smitten by him and afflicted because they thought he had blasphemed, in claiming to be G-d, which certainly fits the bill of a false prophet as you know. That is, of course, if it were really blasphemy. So he was "smitten by G-d" for supposed blasphemy, by their judgement. Those, then, were the wounds he received in the house of his brothers.

Jonah, always a pleasure to hear from you.

That is one way of intepreting it. I interpret it, that the We are the Gentile nations. They view him the Jews as striken and afflicted, for that reason, they feel free to attack them.

And the truth is this has born out and been true in history. The Gentiles of Europe viewed the Jews as rejected by G-d and felt free to use them as a scapegoat and afflict them.

The wounds could very well refer to Jesus, but that would apply that he was in fact a false prophet based on the context of Zach 13

Yes, I can understand context-wise why you see it the way you do. The context seems to totally support what you say; I mean, why weave Messiah into this one?

Yet, why would a false prophet respond in the way described? Seems a little odd.

Also, why call the nation/s that has the Israelites be called the "Shepherd"?

He is responding in that manner because there is no longer any pretext, it is obvious to all that he is a false prophet. So he admits that he is, and thanks his friends for rebuking him, from his sinful path.

As to the shepherd, well, a shepherd is someone who watches a flock, whether they do ao good job or not does not make them any less of a shepherd.

It is clear that this shepherd does not find favor in the eyes of G-d. G-d smites him, after the knowledge of G-d is everywhere.

Then we have is there a relationship between the wounded person in Zach 13 and Zach 12?

[John]

Quote: Then we have is there a relationship between the wounded person in Zach 13 and Zach 12?


What do you think?

[John]

Here's what John MacArthur had to say about the issue.



a) The context of Zechariah 13:7

Zechariah 13:7 is not an easy passage to interpret. If it had been simple, the disciples might have understood it. The context speaks of false prophets, whom God will judge according to their false prophecies. Then verse 7 says, "Smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered."

b) The interpretation of Zechariah 13:7

At first it might seem that the Lord is referring to smiting a false shepherd and scattering his followers. But we have the clear interpretation of Christ, who says that the smitten shepherd is the Messiah and the scattered flock His people.

(1) Identifying the shepherd

In Zechariah 13:7 God says, "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd." That statement indicates God is not referring to a false prophet. God wouldn't refer to a false prophet as His shepherd--His personal representative. God says He will bring His sword "against the man." Here Zechariah uses a Hebrew word that is not the generic word for man, but one that means "mighty man" or "man of great strength." The shepherd God would slay is the mighty shepherd of God. Then verse 7 says, "The man who is my fellow." That literally means, "the mighty man of My union" or "the mighty man equal to Me." Who is equal to God? Christ. Who was God's shepherd? Christ. Who is the mighty shepherd? Christ. Clearly Zechariah has turned from a discussion of false shepherds. While it was true that God would wound the false shepherd in the house of his idol (v. 6), God would also wound the true shepherd and scatter His sheep. The end of verse 7 says, "I will turn my hand upon the little ones." That means God will preserve a remnant.

(2) Identifying the sheep

Zechariah is saying that the day is coming when God is going to smite His own shepherd, the Lord Jesus Christ, and scatter the sheep. I believe Zechariah is referring to the nation Israel. It was characterized by chaos after the death of their Messiah. In [sc]A.D. 70, the city of Jerusalem was destroyed along with the Temple. Today the Jewish people are still experiencing that same chaos as a result of rejecting their Messiah. The scattering of the disciples was the first phase of that chaos. But Zechariah 13:7 also says, "I will turn my hand upon the little ones." When the nation of Israel went into chaos, God gathered the scattered disciples. (Many Christians were preserved from the destruction of Jerusalem in [sc]A.D. 70 because they knew enough to flee [Luke 19:20-22].) Similarly God will preserve a future remnant of those who love Christ.

The prophecy of Zechariah is critical to our understanding of Christ's supernatural knowledge. He knew the meaning of the plan of God. He knew how to interpret a difficult passage in Zechariah perfectly and clearly. He understood the disciples--He knew what they were going to do. He knew what Satan was going to bring to bear on them, and He knew they wouldn't handle it. He knew what Peter would do, even though he said he wouldn't do it. He knew every detail of what was going to happen and when. Jesus didn't lose, but the disciples did. They are not heroes--they abandoned Christ. They revealed themselves to be ignorant, unable to understand the plan of God, the prophetic word, or the signs of the times. Christ shines by comparison.

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote:

The wounds could very well refer to Jesus, but that would apply that he was in fact a false prophet based on the context of Zach 13

Using that chain of logic, on the converse, wouldn't that imply that the Jewish people are the "false prophet" of Zech 13?

I don't think your exegesis is correct as far as the relationship between Zech 13 and Isaiah 53 goes...

[Mailech]

John wrote: Quote: Then we have is there a relationship between the wounded person in Zach 13 and Zach 12?


What do you think?

I don't know, but I don't think so. On the one hand, there is no real reason to say they are the same person, where the one in Zach 12 is a sympathetic person (or group), the one in Zach 13 is clearly a false prophet. The only reason to connect them is they are both wounded, but that seems to be not a great connection.


cap'n qeasy wrote: Mailech wrote: The wounds could very well refer to Jesus, but that would apply that he was in fact a false prophet based on the context of Zach 13


Using that chain of logic, on the converse, wouldn't that imply that the Jewish people are the "false prophet" of Zech 13?

I don't think your exegesis is correct as far as the relationship between Zech 13 and Isaiah 53 goes...

Well as I said before I don't think that Zach 13 and Zach 12 are the same people. If you want to compare Zach 12 to Isaiah 53 then mayne you can, but that bolsters my argument as well, that they are both about the Jews.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Here's what John MacArthur had to say about the issue.

The problem I also have of saying the the shepherd is Jesus, is that Zechariah in chapter 13 is talking about the end of days, when everyone knows G-d, there will be no false gods and no false prophets, but that day has not yet come. (I assume that Christians say that will be in the 2nd coming.)

But the smiting of the shepherd happens at the same time, i.e. in the end of days. So I don't see how Jesus dying can be part of this prophecy.

[cap'n queasy]

Not necessarily at the same time. Prophecy is a pattern over time, generally.
Many times in prophecy the prophecies span time and point to patterns of events. Some events are of "types" like the parting of the Jordan and the parting of the Red Sea are similiar "types".

The mystery of the Church of Christ is a parenthesis in the Tanahk. As the prophecy concerned Israel the entire period of this mystery which concerns Gentiles is not mentioned. The New Testament is what fills this parenthesis.

Quote: Isa 9:1 -
But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles. 2 The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.3 You shall multiply the nation, You shall increase their gladness; They will be glad in Your presence As with the gladness of harvest, As men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian. 5 For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.


It fits this pattern.

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: OK, show me how this is incorrectly translated.
Quote: Isaiah 11: -2-5

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And He will delight in the fear of the Lord, and He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth and with the breath of His lips And will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist.

Why would the Messiah if he is G-d fear the Lord, does G-d fear himself? hmm :think:

It says He has "The Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord". You can't split the phrase and reatain the meaning. True Knowledge is equal to fear of the Lord, and Meshiach will have this Spirit.

It says He will delight in this fear of the Lord, but it doesn't say the Meshiach will fear the Lord.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: OK, show me how this is incorrectly translated.
Quote: Isaiah 11: -2-5

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And He will delight in the fear of the Lord, and He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth and with the breath of His lips And will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist.

Why would the Messiah if he is G-d fear the Lord, does G-d fear himself? hmm :think:

It says He has "The Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord". You can't split the phrase and reatain the meaning. True Knowledge is equal to fear of the Lord, and Meshiach will have this Spirit.

It says He will delight in this fear of the Lord, but it doesn't say the Meshiach will fear the Lord.

Well read the whole thing, all these things will rest on him, the spirit of G-d ... The spirit of knowledge, and the fear of G-d. The fear (awe) of G-d will rest on him, says it right there. He delights in the awe of G-d, since he is happy to be in awe of G-d. That isn't so complicated.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Not necessarily at the same time. Prophecy is a pattern over time, generally.
Many times in prophecy the prophecies span time and point to patterns of events. Some events are of "types" like the parting of the Jordan and the parting of the Red Sea are similiar "types".

The mystery of the Church of Christ is a parenthesis in the Tanahk. As the prophecy concerned Israel the entire period of this mystery which concerns Gentiles is not mentioned. The New Testament is what fills this parenthesis.

Quote: Isa 9:1 -
But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles. 2 The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.3 You shall multiply the nation, You shall increase their gladness; They will be glad in Your presence As with the gladness of harvest, As men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian. 5 For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.


It fits this pattern.

I am not quite sure what you are saying, but I think that you are saying, that within a single prophecy there is no need to have a consistency of time. Is that it?

I would disagree, but of course, I am not an expert, not knowing all the prophecies off the top of my head. But from what I do know, a single prophecy usually is fairly chronological.

So if my way of interpreting follows a pattern, and your's jumps around, who is reaching.

Besides what was the point of the Isaiah quote?

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote:

The wounds could very well refer to Jesus, but that would apply that he was in fact a false prophet based on the context of Zach 13

Using that chain of logic, on the converse, wouldn't that imply that the Jewish people are the "false prophet" of Zech 13?

I don't think your exegesis is correct as far as the relationship between Zech 13 and Isaiah 53 goes...
Why bother using logic when discussing the ways of the Lord??

God knows the Christian Fundamentalists never seem to bother..

[JCool333]

The one issue here, is that according to Jewish belief, the Torah can only be fully understood in hebrew, its original language, by Torah scholars who are not only geniuses, but are taught Torah their entire lives usually. I as a Jew do not think that one can learn the Torah in english alone. To learn the basics, OK, but to learn the ideas, you just can't. Or else Moshe would really have horns coming from his head...