Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

Israel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Israel wrote: John wrote: Are you gambling your soul on the difference between a spear and a sword?
That and about several other dozen prophecies he didn't have a chance to do...

I think I'd be safer saying Bar Kochba was Moshiach then Jesus was. And in fact, niether of them are.

Bar Kochba doesn't sound like the Son in Psalm 2.

Y'shua does. And when He fulfills the last of prophecy, He really is. Because He is going to break this world like an old pot.

There is also the matter of timing. Meshiach must have come before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Here is a website that has many of the prophecies of Y'shua HaMeshiach from the Tanakh.
http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/beginners_messianic.htm

I found this especially insulting.

Quote: While most Jews in the world today accept the concept of a Messiah as a Jewish precept, almost none - including those with Rabbinical training would be able to recite with any accuracy what is known and has been written about this individual in the Tanach for millennia.
So nice of that site to put the burden on us. It's not your lack of ability to explain your perspective to us, it's us, the dumb Rabbinicly trained jews who read the Hebrew and not some incorrectly translated text. Thanks Cap'n It was a great read. :?


OK, show me how this is incorrectly translated.
Quote: Isaiah 11: -2-5

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And He will delight in the fear of the Lord, and He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth and with the breath of His lips And will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist.

[Israel]

Moath wrote: Ok...

If the Talmud is not in Hebrew, then what language is it?
Aramaic. Lucky you. :-D

[Saracen]

:-D Well, it's in the middle between Arabic and Hebrew, eh?

I don't know Aramaic, but I can make out some of its script. I have an uncle who knows Hebrew.

But Aramaic is similar to both Arabic and Hebrew, isn't it? And the rule I mentioned above (about one-to-many English translations from Arabic and Hebrew) can be applied to Aramaic. Is that why you suggested that I don't study the Talmud alone, but with someone who knows the Talmud? :)

I can say the same thing about the Koran. It's obvious we're on the same ground here. :)

[psholtz]

Moath wrote: :-D Well, it's in the middle between Arabic and Hebrew, eh?

I don't know Aramaic, but I can make out some of its script. I have an uncle who knows Hebrew.

But Aramaic is similar to both Arabic and Hebrew, isn't it? And the rule I mentioned above (about one-to-many English translations from Arabic and Hebrew) can be applied to Aramaic. Is that why you suggested that I don't study the Talmud alone, but with someone who knows the Talmud? :)

I can say the same thing about the Koran. It's obvious we're on the same ground here. :)
Hebrew is quite closely related to Aramaic.. in fact, in many ways, Hebrew is only a slight variation on Aramaic (again, another proof of the very close connection between Hebrew/Judaism and the Persian Empire, although I'm not going to open that can of worms any further on this thread)..

Arabic is descended from the same general language group, but is slightly more modern:

[John]

Israel wrote: One other thing: Hypothetically if there are 10 requirements that The Messiach must do, and he does 9 and then says, I'm going to be killed tommorrow so I won't have time to do the 10th, then he is not The Messiach.

There is no concept of a second coming or a third coming or a fourth, ect...

So if he failed even ONE prophecy, then I am forbidden to listen to him. In fact there is something like 3 dozen or so Messianic prophecies, one difference between Judaism and Christianity is that IMO, Christians find messianic prophecies to replace the ones he didn't do. Again, my opinoin. But when I hear people say he fullfilled hundreds of prophecies I just chuckle since the Messiach didn't have hundreds to fullfill.


You're forgeting one of the major requirements....

Daniel 9
26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Part of Messianic prophecy is that the Messiah would be executed and then the very same people who carried out the execution would destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.


And that brings us back to this!

Zechariah 12
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me () whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Did you look at the Hebrew? Can you tell me what the Aleph and Tav is doing there?

Also. Can you please explain why the verse changes from first person to second person in the same sentence? "look on me"..."weep for Him"..

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: OK, show me how this is incorrectly translated.
Quote: Isaiah 11: -2-5

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And He will delight in the fear of the Lord, and He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth and with the breath of His lips And will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist.

Why would the Messiah if he is G-d fear the Lord, does G-d fear himself? hmm :think:

[John]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: OK, show me how this is incorrectly translated.
Quote: Isaiah 11: -2-5

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And He will delight in the fear of the Lord, and He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth and with the breath of His lips And will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist.

Why would the Messiah if he is G-d fear the Lord, does G-d fear himself? hmm :think:

You can't change your view now...you know as well as I that the fear of the Lord is an awe or respect for the Lord.

Messiah is the perfect example of how we as men should have a relationship with God. Messiah is a man, and being a man Messiah had to fulfill the relationship man should have with God. The catch was that because of our fallen nature God Himself had to incarnate as a man, with all the limitations that a man has in order to fulfill the relationship Himself and give us a means to fill that gap.

The reason why He is called the only Son…is because God is eternal. He can’t change His mind once something is done. So when God incarnated Himself as a man in order to save the souls of men….He has chosen an eternal state of being that can never change (doing this twice would be a paradox)…hence the only Son.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Israel wrote: One other thing: Hypothetically if there are 10 requirements that The Messiach must do, and he does 9 and then says, I'm going to be killed tommorrow so I won't have time to do the 10th, then he is not The Messiach.

There is no concept of a second coming or a third coming or a fourth, ect...

So if he failed even ONE prophecy, then I am forbidden to listen to him. In fact there is something like 3 dozen or so Messianic prophecies, one difference between Judaism and Christianity is that IMO, Christians find messianic prophecies to replace the ones he didn't do. Again, my opinoin. But when I hear people say he fullfilled hundreds of prophecies I just chuckle since the Messiach didn't have hundreds to fullfill.


You're forgeting one of the major requirements....

Daniel 9
26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Part of Messianic prophecy is that the Messiah would be executed and then the very same people who carried out the execution would destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.


And that brings us back to this!

Zechariah 12
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me () whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Did you look at the Hebrew? Can you tell me what the Aleph and Tav is doing there?

Also. Can you please explain why the verse changes from first person to second person in the same sentence? "look on me"..."weep for Him"..

There are too many holes in your argument. Are you saying that every Et in the Torah refers to Jesus? If not why them not and this one yes?
Another way of translating it is

And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

And don't tell me that that is not possilbe, the Hebrew can bear out either one. It is after all poetic language.

Laslty, if you say that it is Jesus, then read it incontext with Chapter 13, especially verse 6. :wink: Seems to me that if it is Jesus, it is saying that he is a false prophet. :think:

[John]

Quote: There are too many wholes in your argument

Yes. Too many "wholes". That's why I believe it.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: OK, show me how this is incorrectly translated.
Quote: Isaiah 11: -2-5

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And He will delight in the fear of the Lord, and He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth and with the breath of His lips And will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist.

Why would the Messiah if he is G-d fear the Lord, does G-d fear himself? hmm :think:

You can't change your view now...you know as well as I that the fear of the Lord is an awe or respect for the Lord.
Fine, just as well, why would G-d be in awe of Himself, I am not in awe of myself, not anymore than I fear myself.

Quote: Messiah is the perfect example of how we as men should have a relationship with God. Messiah is a man
For once I agree :lol:

Quote: , and being a man Messiah had to fulfill the relationship man should have with God. The catch was that because of our fallen nature God Himself had to incarnate as a man, with all the limitations that a man has in order to fulfill the relationship Himself and give us a means to fill that gap.

That is illogical, how can G-d give Himself the limitations of man, then He is not G-d, you can't have your cake and eat it too. so if He is man then He is not G-d, since G-d has no limitations. But if He is G-d then what is the big deal of Him fulfilling the law?

Quote: The reason why He is called the only Son…is because God is eternal. He can’t change His mind once something is done. So when God incarnated Himself as a man in order to save the souls of men….He has chosen an eternal state of being that can never change (doing this twice would be a paradox)…hence the only Son.

But wait, by your reasoning, if Jesus was born at some point in time, then G-d would have already established Himself as not having a son, then having even the first son would be a paradox, and hence impossible.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Quote: There are too many wholes in your argument

Yes. Too many "wholes". That's why I believe it.

C'mon John, don't just dodge, I am really curious as to your response to the first and last arguments.

[John]

Quote: That is illogical, how can G-d give Himself the limitations of man, then He is not G-d, you can't have your cake and eat it too. so if He is man then He is not G-d, since G-d has no limitations. But if He is G-d then what is the big deal of Him fulfilling the law?

The question isn't how...(of course He could)..the question is why. And that would be to demonstrate perfect love and sacrifice.

The big deal is to prove a point. That ONLY God can fulfill the Law and that we HAVE to put all our Faith in Him. ALL of it.

Quote: But wait, by your reasoning, if Jesus was born at some point in time, then G-d would have already established Himself as not having a son, then having even the first son would be a paradox, and hence impossible.


No..not really. You're looking at it from our perspective.

Micah 5
2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity."


Jesus loves you Mailech, He is our Messiah.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: There are too many wholes in your argument

Yes. Too many "wholes". That's why I believe it.

C'mon John, don't just dodge, I am really curious as to your response to the first and last arguments.

Well, I believe that..."they will look on Me () whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. " Is the most logical translation.

And you're going to need to explain further why you think the "being" in Zechariah 13:6 is a false prophet. It seems to me that you're the one who needs to read it in context....but I do agree that it is the same person as in chapter 12.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: There are too many wholes in your argument

Yes. Too many "wholes". That's why I believe it.

C'mon John, don't just dodge, I am really curious as to your response to the first and last arguments.

Well, I believe that..."they will look on Me () whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. " Is the most logical translation. I knew you would say that, I mean the comment about Et.

Quote: And you're going to need to explain further why you think the "being" in Zechariah 13:6 is a false prophet. It seems to me that you're the one who needs to read it in context....but I do agree that it is the same person as in chapter 12.

Zechariah 13

1. On that day, a spring shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for purification and for sprinkling.
---G-d will purify the land

2. And it shall come to pass on that day, says the Lord of Hosts: I will cut off the names of the idols from the earth, and they shall no longer be mentioned. And also the prophets and the spirit of contamination I will remove from the earth.
---G-d will remove idols and false prophets

3. And it shall come to pass, if a man still prophesies, that his father and his mother-his parents-shall say to him, "You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord." And his father and his mother-his parents-shall thrust him through because of his prophesying.
---Parents will turn in their own children for false prophecy

4. And it shall come to pass on that day that the prophets shall be ashamed, each one of his vision when he prophesies; and they will not wear a hairy mantle in order to lie.
---On that day all the false prophets will be ashamed of their lies

5. And he shall say, "I am not a prophet! I am a tiller of the soil, for a man entrusted me with his cattle from my youth."
---The false prophet will admit that he is not a real prophet, that he abused the trust given him

6. And one will say to him, "What are these wounds between your hands?" And he shall say, "That I was smitten in the house of my friends."
---They will ask the false prophet what are those wounds between your hands, he will say that is where my loved ones reproved me

7. O sword, awaken against My shepherd and against the man who is associated with Me! says the Lord of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and the flock shall scatter, and I will return My hand upon the little ones.
---G-d will smite the Kingdoms that he used to watch the Jews in the exile for their mistreatment, and the flock will be free

8. And it shall come to pass throughout all the land, says the Lord, two parts of it shall be cut off. They shall perish, and the third shall remain therein.
9. And I will bring the third in fire; and I will refine them as one refines silver, and I will test them as one tests gold. He shall call in My name, and I will respond to him. I said, "He is My people"; and he shall say, "The Lord is my God."

[Israel]

John...
John wrote: Did you look at the Hebrew? Can you tell me what the Aleph and Tav is doing there?

The same thing it does in these locations...

Genesis 1:4, 4:1, 5:22, 14:4, 19:13, 37:23, 47:23
Exodus 18:20
Leviticus 6:4, 14:40
Judges 11:27
Isaiah 1:4, 6:1, 7:12, 19:14
Zechariah 6:8

Does the Et in all these locations refer to Jesus? And I will find more if you dare to say yes...

This will be thrilling! Thanks for your input!

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: 8. And it shall come to pass throughout all the land, says the Lord, two parts of it shall be cut off. They shall perish, and the third shall remain therein.
9. And I will bring the third in fire; and I will refine them as one refines silver, and I will test them as one tests gold. He shall call in My name, and I will respond to him. I said, "He is My people"; and he shall say, "The Lord is my God."

8.Two parts were cut off when the Meshiach was cut off. It took almost two thousand years but they are in Israel again after the Diaspora.

9. This time of testing (Jacob's Trouble) is at the end of the time of the Gentiles, which is near. It will end when Messiah comes, He was cut off the first appointed time, as prophecized. Fortunately for us this fulfilled His Divine Purpose. To take the sins of the world on his shoulders and sacrifice Himself on our behalf. When He returns it will be in Power and Glory at the head of His Host. And He will Judge the Nations.

Quote: Micah 5:1-15 -


1 "Now muster yourselves in troops, daughter of troops;

They have laid siege against us;

With a rod they will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek.

2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,

Too little to be among the clans of Judah,

From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.

His goings forth are from long ago,

From the days of eternity."

3Therefore He will give them up until the time

When she who is in labor has borne a child.

Then the remainder of His brethren

Will return to the sons of Israel[/b].

4 And He will arise and shepherd His flock

In the strength of the LORD,

In the majesty of the name of the LORD His God.

And they will remain,

Because at that time He will be great

To the ends of the earth.

5 This One will be our peace.

When the Assyrian invades our land,

When he tramples on our citadels,

Then we will raise against him

Seven shepherds, and eight leaders of men.

6 They will shepherd the land of Assyria with the sword,

The land of Nimrod at its entrances;

And He will deliver us from the Assyrian

When he attacks our land

And when he tramples our territory.

7 Then the remnant of Jacob

Will be among many peoples

Like dew from the LORD,

Like showers on vegetation

Which do not wait for man

Or delay for the sons of men.

8 The remnant of Jacob

Will be among the nations,

Among many peoples

Like a lion among the beasts of the forest,

Like a young lion among flocks of sheep,

Which, if he passes through,

Tramples down and tears,

And there is none to rescue.

9 Your hand will be lifted up against your adversaries,

And all your enemies will be cut off.

10 "It will be in that day," declares the LORD,

"That I will cut off your horses from among you

And destroy your chariots.

11 "I will also cut off the cities of your land

And tear down all your fortifications.

12 "I will cut off sorceries from your hand,

And you will have fortune-tellers no more.

13 "I will cut off your carved images

And your sacred pillars from among you,

So that you will no longer bow down

To the work of your hands.

14 "I will root out your Asherim from among you

And destroy your cities.

15 "And I will execute vengeance in anger and wrath

On the nations which have not obeyed."

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: There are too many wholes in your argument

Yes. Too many "wholes". That's why I believe it.

C'mon John, don't just dodge, I am really curious as to your response to the first and last arguments.

Well, I believe that..."they will look on Me () whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. " Is the most logical translation. I knew you would say that, I mean the comment about Et.

Quote: And you're going to need to explain further why you think the "being" in Zechariah 13:6 is a false prophet. It seems to me that you're the one who needs to read it in context....but I do agree that it is the same person as in chapter 12.

Zechariah 13

1. On that day, a spring shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for purification and for sprinkling.
---G-d will purify the land

2. And it shall come to pass on that day, says the Lord of Hosts: I will cut off the names of the idols from the earth, and they shall no longer be mentioned. And also the prophets and the spirit of contamination I will remove from the earth.
---G-d will remove idols and false prophets

3. And it shall come to pass, if a man still prophesies, that his father and his mother-his parents-shall say to him, "You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord." And his father and his mother-his parents-shall thrust him through because of his prophesying.
---Parents will turn in their own children for false prophecy

4. And it shall come to pass on that day that the prophets shall be ashamed, each one of his vision when he prophesies; and they will not wear a hairy mantle in order to lie.
---On that day all the false prophets will be ashamed of their lies

5. And he shall say, "I am not a prophet! I am a tiller of the soil, for a man entrusted me with his cattle from my youth."
---The false prophet will admit that he is not a real prophet, that he abused the trust given him

6. And one will say to him, "What are these wounds between your hands?" And he shall say, "That I was smitten in the house of my friends."
---They will ask the false prophet what are those wounds between your hands, he will say that is where my loved ones reproved me

7. O sword, awaken against My shepherd and against the man who is associated with Me! says the Lord of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and the flock shall scatter, and I will return My hand upon the little ones.
---G-d will smite the Kingdoms that he used to watch the Jews in the exile for their mistreatment, and the flock will be free

8. And it shall come to pass throughout all the land, says the Lord, two parts of it shall be cut off. They shall perish, and the third shall remain therein.
9. And I will bring the third in fire; and I will refine them as one refines silver, and I will test them as one tests gold. He shall call in My name, and I will respond to him. I said, "He is My people"; and he shall say, "The Lord is my God."

:think: Hmmm. You make a pretty good point here. So who is the smitten shepherd talked about in verse 7 to 9?

[cap'n queasy]

How about this portrait of the Meshiach?

The Suffering Servant.

Quote: Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,

And like a root out of parched ground;

He has no stately form or majesty

That we should look upon Him,

Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,

A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;

And like one from whom men hide their face

He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,

And our sorrows He carried;

Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,

And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,

Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all

To fall on Him.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,

Yet He did not open His mouth;

Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,

And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,

So He did not open His mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;

And as for His generation, who considered

That He was cut off out of the land of the living

For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,

Yet He was with a rich man in His death,

Because He had done no violence,

Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10 But the LORD was pleased

To crush Him, putting Him to grief;

If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,

He will see His offspring,

He will prolong His days,

And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,

He will see and be satisfied;

By His knowledge the Righteous One,

My Servant, will justify the many,

As He will bear their iniquities.


12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,

And He will divide the booty with the strong;

Because He poured out Himself to death,

And was numbered with the transgressors;

Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,

And interceded for the transgressors.

[Mailech]

John wrote: :think: Hmmm. You make a pretty good point here. So who is the smitten shepherd talked about in verse 7 to 9?

I wrote that I thought the shepherd is the nations that G-d gave the Jews to, so that they should stay there. But they will be punished for the mistreatment that the Jews recieved.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: How about this portrait of the Meshiach?

The Suffering Servant.

What about it. If you look earlier in Isaiah, at the other servant songs, the servant is identified as the Jewish people, same here.