Political Crossfire Forums

[Mailech]

Israel wrote: Moath wrote: Hey, Israel. I share your sentiments. Some twisted sheik living in California did the same thing with the Koran. Take a look at it yourself:

http://www.islam-exposed.com/

It's kinda funny that many people are trying to re-invent religious text. What's ironic about this one is that it's written in a very similar style to the Koran, but is NOTHING like it.

So... when is the last time you've read the Hebrew?

I like where you're going with this. :) Arabic, like Hebrew I'm sure, does not translate one-to-one to the English language. Right? I mean, for example, you can't understand and interpret the Koran from its literal message in the text, but you have to analyze it. I used the same argument against those who misinterpret the Koran.
The fourth word of the bible is a great example of something that doesn't translate.

Et?

[John]

Israel wrote: Moath wrote: Hey, Israel. I share your sentiments. Some twisted sheik living in California did the same thing with the Koran. Take a look at it yourself:

http://www.islam-exposed.com/

It's kinda funny that many people are trying to re-invent religious text. What's ironic about this one is that it's written in a very similar style to the Koran, but is NOTHING like it.

So... when is the last time you've read the Hebrew?

I like where you're going with this. :) Arabic, like Hebrew I'm sure, does not translate one-to-one to the English language. Right? I mean, for example, you can't understand and interpret the Koran from its literal message in the text, but you have to analyze it. I used the same argument against those who misinterpret the Koran.
The fourth word of the bible is a great example of something that doesn't translate.

The Alpha and the Omega...or Aleph and the Tav.

Zechariah 12
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.



Do me a favor and look at what Zechariah 12:10 says in the Hebrew.





"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
-Jesus the Messiah

[Israel]

John wrote: Isaiah 55
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Does that apply to the Good as New translation? :lol:

If no, on what authority do you say such?

[Israel]

Mailech wrote: Israel wrote: Moath wrote: Hey, Israel. I share your sentiments. Some twisted sheik living in California did the same thing with the Koran. Take a look at it yourself:

http://www.islam-exposed.com/

It's kinda funny that many people are trying to re-invent religious text. What's ironic about this one is that it's written in a very similar style to the Koran, but is NOTHING like it.

So... when is the last time you've read the Hebrew?

I like where you're going with this. :) Arabic, like Hebrew I'm sure, does not translate one-to-one to the English language. Right? I mean, for example, you can't understand and interpret the Koran from its literal message in the text, but you have to analyze it. I used the same argument against those who misinterpret the Koran.
The fourth word of the bible is a great example of something that doesn't translate.

Et?
Yea, it's loosely translated as "the" although I don't think it's a great translation.

[Saracen]

Very considerable that you bring up an example.

But what I meant is that you can't understand the Koran right away from its literal meaning in Arabic. It can have many translations to English as well as interpretations. I can't bring up examples now cause I'm in the middle of studying for exams, lol. I'm sure the same thing goes with the Talmud and Torah, right? I mean, they're in Hebrew, and one word in Hebrew can mean several things in English, right?

[John]

Israel wrote: John wrote: Isaiah 55
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Does that apply to the Good as New translation? :lol:

If no, on what authority do you say such?

What does the Good as New translation have to do with me? I'd never even heard about it until you brought it up.

[Israel]

John wrote: The Alpha and the Omega...or Aleph and the Tav.

Zechariah 12
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have [b]pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn[/b].

Do me a favor and look at what Zechariah 12:10 says in the Hebrew.
We've been through this before, was Jesus killed with swords thrusted through him?? Because like Psalm 22:16, I don't see pierced... :-D


You're right though, one opinion in the Gemorah is that it does talk about the coming of the Moshiach... just not Jesus. :-D

[Israel]

Moath wrote: Very considerable that you bring up an example.

But what I meant is that you can't understand the Koran right away from its literal meaning in Arabic. It can have many translations to English as well as interpretations. I can't bring up examples now cause I'm in the middle of studying for exams, lol. I'm sure the same thing goes with the Talmud and Torah, right? I mean, they're in Hebrew, and one word in Hebrew can mean several things in English, right?

I sort of know what you mean, in fact, there are two different possible readings of Leviticus 19:18. It's like the famous verse in the TNK love thy neighbor... it can actually be worded two different ways:

love thy neighbor as thyself
love thy neighbor - s/he is like you

Both are correct.

[Israel]

John wrote: Israel wrote: John wrote: Isaiah 55
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Does that apply to the Good as New translation? :lol:

If no, on what authority do you say such?

What does the Good as New translation have to do with me? I'd never even heard about it until you brought it up.

Well, you're saying that the Word of G-d is never lost. Has it been lost in the Good as New translation?

[Israel]

Moath wrote: . I'm sure the same thing goes with the Talmud and Torah, right? I mean, they're in Hebrew, and one word in Hebrew can mean several things in English, right?

One thing: The Talmud isn't in Hebrew.

[John]

Israel wrote: John wrote: The Alpha and the Omega...or Aleph and the Tav.

Zechariah 12
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have [b]pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn[/b].

Do me a favor and look at what Zechariah 12:10 says in the Hebrew.
We've been through this before, was Jesus killed with swords thrusted through him?? Because like Psalm 22:16, I don't see pierced... :-D


You're right though, one opinion in the Gemorah is that it does talk about the coming of the Moshiach... just not Jesus. :-D

Yes.....Jesus had a spear thrusted through him.

John 19
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe.

36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."

37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: What do you think of Elizabeth Dilling, who is right under that?

Looks like both sides are presented to me. Pro-Talmud and con-Talmud.

Anything wrong with that?

Reading from Elizabeth Dillings bio, I would say that she was an anti-Semite, but that is just from my cursory perusal.

I actually directed that question to Paul, because he freaked out about that "zionist" site.

That is correct. Her's is one view of the Talmud, the Talmud in US law view that upset Paul so much is another.

I don't agree with either so I'm not worried about them. However you can read the Talmud and rabbinical commentary and opinion as well, which is pretty cool.

[Israel]

John wrote: Israel wrote: John wrote: The Alpha and the Omega...or Aleph and the Tav.

Zechariah 12
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have [b]pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn[/b].

Do me a favor and look at what Zechariah 12:10 says in the Hebrew.
We've been through this before, was Jesus killed with swords thrusted through him?? Because like Psalm 22:16, I don't see pierced... :-D


You're right though, one opinion in the Gemorah is that it does talk about the coming of the Moshiach... just not Jesus. :-D

Yes.....Jesus had a spear thrusted through him.

John 19
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe.

36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."

37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
Is a spear and a sword the same thing?

[cap'n queasy]

They both pierce.

Where is a sword specified?

[John]

Israel wrote: John wrote: Israel wrote: John wrote: The Alpha and the Omega...or Aleph and the Tav.

Zechariah 12
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have [b]pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn[/b].

Do me a favor and look at what Zechariah 12:10 says in the Hebrew.
We've been through this before, was Jesus killed with swords thrusted through him?? Because like Psalm 22:16, I don't see pierced... :-D


You're right though, one opinion in the Gemorah is that it does talk about the coming of the Moshiach... just not Jesus. :-D

Yes.....Jesus had a spear thrusted through him.

John 19
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe.

36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."

37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
Is a spear and a sword the same thing?

Are you gambling your soul on the difference between a spear and a sword?

[Israel]

John wrote: Are you gambling your soul on the difference between a spear and a sword?
That and about several other dozen prophecies he didn't have a chance to do...

I think I'd be safer saying Bar Kochba was Moshiach then Jesus was. And in fact, niether of them are.

[Israel]

One other thing: Hypothetically if there are 10 requirements that The Messiach must do, and he does 9 and then says, I'm going to be killed tommorrow so I won't have time to do the 10th, then he is not The Messiach.

There is no concept of a second coming or a third coming or a fourth, ect...

So if he failed even ONE prophecy, then I am forbidden to listen to him. In fact there is something like 3 dozen or so Messianic prophecies, one difference between Judaism and Christianity is that IMO, Christians find messianic prophecies to replace the ones he didn't do. Again, my opinoin. But when I hear people say he fullfilled hundreds of prophecies I just chuckle since the Messiach didn't have hundreds to fullfill.

[cap'n queasy]

Israel wrote: John wrote: Are you gambling your soul on the difference between a spear and a sword?
That and about several other dozen prophecies he didn't have a chance to do...

I think I'd be safer saying Bar Kochba was Moshiach then Jesus was. And in fact, niether of them are.

Bar Kochba doesn't sound like the Son in Psalm 2.

Y'shua does. And when He fulfills the last of prophecy, He really is. Because He is going to break this world like an old pot.

There is also the matter of timing. Meshiach must have come before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Here is a website that has many of the prophecies of Y'shua HaMeshiach from the Tanakh.
http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/beginners_messianic.htm

[Israel]

cap'n queasy wrote: Israel wrote: John wrote: Are you gambling your soul on the difference between a spear and a sword?
That and about several other dozen prophecies he didn't have a chance to do...

I think I'd be safer saying Bar Kochba was Moshiach then Jesus was. And in fact, niether of them are.

Bar Kochba doesn't sound like the Son in Psalm 2.

Y'shua does. And when He fulfills the last of prophecy, He really is. Because He is going to break this world like an old pot.

There is also the matter of timing. Meshiach must have come before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Here is a website that has many of the prophecies of Y'shua HaMeshiach from the Tanakh.
http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/beginners_messianic.htm

I found this especially insulting.

Quote: While most Jews in the world today accept the concept of a Messiah as a Jewish precept, almost none - including those with Rabbinical training would be able to recite with any accuracy what is known and has been written about this individual in the Tanach for millennia.
So nice of that site to put the burden on us. It's not your lack of ability to explain your perspective to us, it's us, the dumb Rabbinicly trained jews who read the Hebrew and not some incorrectly translated text. Thanks Cap'n It was a great read. :?

[Saracen]

Ok...

If the Talmud is not in Hebrew, then what language is it?