Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

You are right Moath of course. It is funny, I have had Muslim friends, and in many ways Judaism is just as close if not closer to Islam than it is to Christianity, it is just the politics that get in the way. The flip side is that some of the religious aspects have definite political ramifications. Oh well.

Mailech, I agree 100%. If you're interested, you might want to go to the Islam forums and see what I had to say about interpreting the Koran. :) I even have this friend who's telling me how absurd it is that the Arab-Israeli conflict is going on despite the similarities between Islam and Judaism... but that's changing the subject. Thanks for bringing your point up.:)

and the Talmud teaches that Jesus is in Hell being boiled alive in hot human excrement..

Who told you that? Reference, please. :roll:

And John, it's kinda funny that Chrisitanity promotes reading the Bible on your own. Is that why there are so many different sects of it? No offence. Just curious.

And psholtz, did you know that Civil War General Sherman's ideals and philosophies were based on the teachings of the Koran as well? Check it out: you're probably more accessible to Civil War biographical libraries than I am. :wink:

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: Looks like both sides are presented to me. Pro-Talmud and con-Talmud.

Anything wrong with that?
There's a lot wrong w/ that. For starters, the fact that there are always more than two ways of looking at something (esp social and economic issues). Always beware when complex social issues are pre-fabbed and broken down for you into "Pro-X" and "Con-X".. whoever is doing it is setting up a dialectic which will only be used to further divide and conquer you. As for myself, I prefer the "Think-For-Yourself" option, which I do not see illustrated on this Web site.

The dialectic is esp dangerous as it concerns the Talmud, since you're either going to be funneled into being (a) pro-Talmud; or (b) anti-Semitic, which is a silly division to make, although I'm sure that's precisely the division that the Elites want to be made..

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

I think it's just a web-site that is for study of the Talmud. They also show various opinions about it. It's not just for or against.

Your opinion of it's purpose is a bit off the wall IMHO, but ok. Maybe it is an attempt to brain-wash people and turn then into zionist robots by showing several sides of the issue. :lol:

Anyway, it is an on-line Talmud, which is the point of the thread.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

The whole thing about Jesus boiling in excrement, well, just because he is called Yaishu does not mean that it is him. Read it, the chronology is off. the teacher of the guy who is boiling was a few hundred years before. Or something like that. If you like, you can give me the tractate and daf that it is on and I can look it up myself, I for one have no inclination to look it up myself.

The same goes for the dog turd thing that you like to bring up John, I don't know to what it refers, but if you point me to the page, I can look it up.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: I think it's just a web-site that is for study of the Talmud. They also show various opinions about it. It's not just for or against.
OK, well one post ago you're the one who said the site offers both (a) pro-Talmud and (b) anti-Talmud viewpoints.. Soo... one or the other? I dunno.. It's not the first time you've managed to contradict yourself in so brief a span of time.

Quote: Your opinion of it's purpose is a bit off the wall IMHO, but ok.
What is my opinion of its purpose? I wasn't even aware that I had an opinion as to the purpose of the Talmud. To me, the Talmud is quite inscrutable and unfathomable.. There are passages in the Talmud that I think are quite clever, wise parables. There are other passages that I would take issue w/.. Obviously, in a work that large, it's impossible to be entirely "pro-Talmud" or "anti-Talmud", since it goes both ways depending on what passage you're looking at.

If something is forcing me to be either (a) pro-Talmud; or (b) anti-Talmud, than it's forcing me to be something that I am not, and moreover that no human being could be, unless that human were completely and totally brainwashed (in either direction).

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Looks like both sides are presented to me. Pro-Talmud and con-Talmud.

Anything wrong with that?
There's a lot wrong w/ that. For starters, the fact that there are always more than two ways of looking at something (esp social and economic issues). Always beware when complex social issues are pre-fabbed and broken down for you into "Pro-X" and "Con-X".. whoever is doing it is setting up a dialectic which will only be used to further divide and conquer you. As for myself, I prefer the "Think-For-Yourself" option, which I do not see illustrated on this Web site.

The dialectic is esp dangerous as it concerns the Talmud, since you're either going to be funneled into being (a) pro-Talmud; or (b) anti-Semitic, which is a silly division to make, although I'm sure that's precisely the division that the Elites want to be made..

:lol: Take a chill pill. The point was just that it has the Talmud on-line that you can look at.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

Mailech wrote: The whole thing about Jesus boiling in excrement, well, just because he is called Yaishu does not mean that it is him. Read it, the chronology is off. the teacher of the guy who is boiling was a few hundred years before. Or something like that. If you like, you can give me the tractate and daf that it is on and I can look it up myself, I for one have no inclination to look it up myself.

The same goes for the dog turd thing that you like to bring up John, I don't know to what it refers, but if you point me to the page, I can look it up.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_69.html

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

John wrote: http://www.come-and-hear.com/navigate.html

This site has it.

I looked at the website. It only goes to show how when you try to learn the Torah and the Gemara on your own you will distort what it says and completely misunderstand it.

The site was so completely anti-religious Jews. Going so far as to say that Orthodox Jews condone child sacrifice and the murder of Christian children. That web site is disgusting.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

John wrote: Mailech wrote: The whole thing about Jesus boiling in excrement, well, just because he is called Yaishu does not mean that it is him. Read it, the chronology is off. the teacher of the guy who is boiling was a few hundred years before. Or something like that. If you like, you can give me the tractate and daf that it is on and I can look it up myself, I for one have no inclination to look it up myself.

The same goes for the dog turd thing that you like to bring up John, I don't know to what it refers, but if you point me to the page, I can look it up.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_69.html

Ok, I read it so what?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

That was the Elizabeth Dilling viewpoint I mentioned earlier. It also had commentary by Rabbis and something about Talmud Law for America.

Like I said it shows several views. I have to agree Dilling is pretty crazed.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

cap'n queasy wrote: What do you think of Elizabeth Dilling, who is right under that?

Looks like both sides are presented to me. Pro-Talmud and con-Talmud.

Anything wrong with that?

Reading from Elizabeth Dillings bio, I would say that she was an anti-Semite, but that is just from my cursory perusal.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2583

John wrote: http://www.come-and-hear.com/navigate.html

This site has it.

Just to reiterate John, you using that site to learn about and discuss the Gemara is equivalent to an athiest using www.skepticsannotatedbible.com and www.bibletrash.com as primary sources. :x

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

John wrote: Moath wrote: The Talmud is something you shouldnt study on your own, like the Bible, the Torah and the Koran. If you do, it might bring up prejudice and wrong interpretations of the text that you're studying.

Are you kidding? Christianity promotes highly that you read the Bible for yourself. I honestly think that most of the bad interpretations of the Bible that are floating around come from people believing what other people say about the Bible than from reading it for personally.
So... when is the last time you've read the Hebrew?

John wrote: God promises that His word will not return void without accomplishing its purpose...reading the Bible can do you nothing but good.
So... Is it kill or murder John? Something so simple as the ten commandments not being right.

I also wanted your expert opinion.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39114

Quote: A brand-new translation of the Bible – praised by Britain's archbishop of Canterbury, that nation’s senior Christian voice – flatly contradicts traditional core Christian beliefs on sex and morality.

Titled "Good as New," the new Bible is translated by former Baptist minister John Henson for the "One" organization, to produce what the group calls a "new, fresh and adventurous" translation of the Christian scriptures.

The 104th archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams – leader of the Church of England – describes it is a book of "extraordinary power," but admitted many would be startled by its content.

"Instead of condemning fornicators, adulterers and 'abusers of themselves with mankind'," says Ruth Gledhill, the London Times religious affairs correspondent, "the new version of his first letter to Corinth has St. Paul advising Christians not to go without sex for too long in case they get 'frustrated.'"

On what authority do you say his holy spirit is wrong? You can't, except in your little head because it conflicts your beliefs. But when it boils down to it, you don't KNOW if his translation is more accurate then the KJV or the NSAB or any other of your bibles.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

Hey guys, I appreciate the talk and all, but all I wanted was a reliable Talmud source. :lol:

But hey, now that the talk is underway, why stop it when we can get some enlightenment out of it?

I believe that if you want to know about the Talmud, you should study it with someone who truly knows the Talmud, like Mailech and Israel pointed out, or go to a reliable Judaism-based source, not one that brings up bad issues about it. Those who are against the Koran's teachings did the same thing and look where it has gotten them: nowhere. They have been disproved time and time again (you can see that yourselves in the Islam forums).

Guys, listen to what Mailech says. He knows more about the Talmud than you guys do. And the idea of using biased "anti" sources is just wrong. How could you get your interpretations about something from a source that goes all-out against it?!

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

Moath wrote: Guys, listen to what Mailech says. He knows more about the Talmud than you guys do. And the idea of using biased "anti" sources is just wrong. How could you get your interpretations about something from a source that goes all-out against it?!
Agreed, I find it similar to the way John complains that we've never read the NT but he's never read the Qur'an or Talmud.

John: What you don't seem to realize is that the bible has thousands of versions to check the difference of opinion. So you can sort of kind of guess which is close or seems to be right. With Talmud, there are not thousands of versions on-line so with some of the mis-translations, you won't find the correct.

As I said John, since when do you start adhereing to the Talmud? Or do you pick and choose what meshes well with Christianity and ignore the rest? (like the bible). :)

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

Hey, Israel. I share your sentiments. Some twisted sheik living in California did the same thing with the Koran. Take a look at it yourself:

http://www.islam-exposed.com/

It's kinda funny that many people are trying to re-invent religious text. What's ironic about this one is that it's written in a very similar style to the Koran, but is NOTHING like it.

So... when is the last time you've read the Hebrew?

I like where you're going with this. :) Arabic, like Hebrew I'm sure, does not translate one-to-one to the English language. Right? I mean, for example, you can't understand and interpret the Koran from its literal message in the text, but you have to analyze it. I used the same argument against those who misinterpret the Koran.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

Mailech wrote: John wrote: http://www.come-and-hear.com/navigate.html

This site has it.

Just to reiterate John, you using that site to learn about and discuss the Gemara is equivalent to an athiest using www.skepticsannotatedbible.com and www.bibletrash.com as primary sources. :x

I'm not doing anything..I just Googled it. It has a link to an English translation of the Talmud. *shrug*

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

John wrote: :lol: Take a chill pill. The point was just that it has the Talmud on-line that you can look at.
Have you studied the Talmud before hand to gather if they have an accurate translation of the Talmud? Imagine if I was a stranded poor African never heard of Jesus, and some nice Christian fellow who has 'the spirit' gave me a copy of the "Good as New" bible, by that wonderful guy Baptist minister John Henson *the link is above*. Now I want you to think outside the box here, and I as this poor stranded African read this and believe it to be the word of G-d, how are you any different? And don't talk about how you have some 'holy spirit' vs this guy really not.

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

Moath wrote: Hey, Israel. I share your sentiments. Some twisted sheik living in California did the same thing with the Koran. Take a look at it yourself:

http://www.islam-exposed.com/

It's kinda funny that many people are trying to re-invent religious text. What's ironic about this one is that it's written in a very similar style to the Koran, but is NOTHING like it.

So... when is the last time you've read the Hebrew?

I like where you're going with this. :) Arabic, like Hebrew I'm sure, does not translate one-to-one to the English language. Right? I mean, for example, you can't understand and interpret the Koran from its literal message in the text, but you have to analyze it. I used the same argument against those who misinterpret the Koran.
The fourth word of the bible is a great example of something that doesn't translate.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

Quote: So... Is it kill or murder John? Something so simple as the ten commandments not being right.

Get real Israel. The people that spoke King James English understood thou shall not kill to mean not to murder. It doesn't take too many IQ points to catch that drift.

Exodus 20 (NASB)
12"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.

13"You shall not murder.

14"You shall not commit adultery.

15"You shall not steal.

16"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Isaiah 55
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.