Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: If you are talking about the Grammer, I don't have it in front of me but from my recolection it should read

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father shall call him Prince of Peace


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132602110-1513.html#6

Here it is..Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint.


You're wrong. :wink:

I already told you the Septuagint only translated the Torah, the Church did the rest, so I really don't care what that says.

Maybe you care about how the Talmud translated it.


Sanhedrin 94
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness.28 What is meant by, among his fat ones [bemishmanav]29 leanness? — The Holy One, blessed be He, said: Let Hezekiah, who hath eight [shemoneh] names, come and mete out punishment to Sennacherib, who hath [likewise] eight.30 Hezekiah, as it is written, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called [i] Wonderful, [ii] Counsellor, [iii] Mighty, [iv] Judge,31 [v] Everlasting, [vi] Father, [vii] Prince, and [viii] Peace.32 But is there not Hezekiah too?33

This is not the literal translation. Look at the way it is parsed. This is more on the level of drash.

Are you saying here that Hezekiah was the Messiah?

the truth is that the Gemara over there says that indeed those verses are about the Messiah, so you are right John. They are about the Messiah Hezekiah, and in fact it says that G-d wanted to make Hezekiah "THE MESSIAH" but he was not worthy.

Of course Isaiah 9 is about the Messiah. There's no question about that.

But Hezekiah was the Messiah? God "wanted" him to be but he wasn't worthy? That's just plain silliness.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: So you're saying that Isaiah is talking about Hezekiah? :?

I though you guys told me it had something to do with the grammer.

Read it in context.

If you read before Isaiah is talking about the Assyria attacking the both Israel and Judah, acting harsher than before when he only exiled Naftali and Gad.
He will make it till Judah, till Judah is swallowed up to his neck, but there will be one born who will save them as miraculously as Gideon was saved from Midean. Just as 300 people beat 120,000 without any weapons, so to Hezkiah beat Assyria without drawing a sword. But still Israel did not learn and so they were exiled.

No. Hezkiah didn't beat anyone. The Angel of the LORD did.

Whatever, I meant that he won without a sword, as did Gideon.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Of course Isaiah 9 is about the Messiah. There's no question about that.

But Hezekiah was the Messiah? God "wanted" him to be but he wasn't worthy? That's just plain silliness.

Really it was about Hezekiah, who might have been the Messiah. You see in every generation there is someone who could be the Messiah, if the generation is worthy of it. Since there has yet to be a generation that is worthy of it, he has not yet come.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: So you're saying that Isaiah is talking about Hezekiah? :?

I though you guys told me it had something to do with the grammer.

Read it in context.

If you read before Isaiah is talking about the Assyria attacking the both Israel and Judah, acting harsher than before when he only exiled Naftali and Gad.
He will make it till Judah, till Judah is swallowed up to his neck, but there will be one born who will save them as miraculously as Gideon was saved from Midean. Just as 300 people beat 120,000 without any weapons, so to Hezkiah beat Assyria without drawing a sword. But still Israel did not learn and so they were exiled.

No. Hezkiah didn't beat anyone. The Angel of the LORD did.

Whatever, I meant that he won without a sword, as did Gideon.

I do agree that I think Isaiah 9 is talking about the Angel of the LORD. :-D

[Duchifas]

Quote: Seriously...I would like to see what he says. Are you willing to confront him on the issue?

Confront him with what? His ignorance?

He is your "Jesus buddy," so why don't you invite him here. He claims to have the holy spirit cleansed his heart, he has accepted Yeshua, etc. And he is in Texas. So send him an email and invite him. I think he is more likely to come over when invited by a fellow holy spirit guy, rather than by some hell-bound gospel enemies.

I am all for him coming over and explaining to us how Hebrew has no tenses. Seriously. If he convinces me, I will demand my school tuition back. So it's a win win for everyone.

Go for it.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: So you're saying that Isaiah is talking about Hezekiah? :?

I though you guys told me it had something to do with the grammer.

Read it in context.

If you read before Isaiah is talking about the Assyria attacking the both Israel and Judah, acting harsher than before when he only exiled Naftali and Gad.
He will make it till Judah, till Judah is swallowed up to his neck, but there will be one born who will save them as miraculously as Gideon was saved from Midean. Just as 300 people beat 120,000 without any weapons, so to Hezkiah beat Assyria without drawing a sword. But still Israel did not learn and so they were exiled.

No. Hezkiah didn't beat anyone. The Angel of the LORD did.

Whatever, I meant that he won without a sword, as did Gideon.

I do agree that I think Isaiah 9 is talking about the Angel of the LORD. :-D

It is not about Jesus, it is about Hezekiah, it happened several hundred years before Jesus, what you say makes zero sense in context.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Of course Isaiah 9 is about the Messiah. There's no question about that.

But Hezekiah was the Messiah? God "wanted" him to be but he wasn't worthy? That's just plain silliness.

Really it was about Hezekiah, who might have been the Messiah. You see in every generation there is someone who could be the Messiah, if the generation is worthy of it. Since there has yet to be a generation that is worthy of it, he has not yet come.

That generation will be a haughty generation indeed.

Do you really think God works that way?

It was this haughty spirit that caused the world to reject Messiah in the first place. The sad thing is that you guys are going to accept someone who has the opposite character of Messiah. You guys will esteem Mr. Pride.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: So you're saying that Isaiah is talking about Hezekiah? :?

I though you guys told me it had something to do with the grammer.

Read it in context.

If you read before Isaiah is talking about the Assyria attacking the both Israel and Judah, acting harsher than before when he only exiled Naftali and Gad.
He will make it till Judah, till Judah is swallowed up to his neck, but there will be one born who will save them as miraculously as Gideon was saved from Midean. Just as 300 people beat 120,000 without any weapons, so to Hezkiah beat Assyria without drawing a sword. But still Israel did not learn and so they were exiled.

No. Hezkiah didn't beat anyone. The Angel of the LORD did.

Whatever, I meant that he won without a sword, as did Gideon.

I do agree that I think Isaiah 9 is talking about the Angel of the LORD. :-D

It is not about Jesus, it is about Hezekiah, it happened several hundred years before Jesus, what you say makes zero sense in context.

So you think that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus?

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Of course Isaiah 9 is about the Messiah. There's no question about that.

But Hezekiah was the Messiah? God "wanted" him to be but he wasn't worthy? That's just plain silliness.

Really it was about Hezekiah, who might have been the Messiah. You see in every generation there is someone who could be the Messiah, if the generation is worthy of it. Since there has yet to be a generation that is worthy of it, he has not yet come.

That generation will be a haughty generation indeed.

Do you really think God works that way?

It was this haughty spirit that caused the world to reject Messiah in the first place. The sad thing is that you guys are going to accept someone who has the opposite character of Messiah. You guys will esteem Mr. Pride.

Wrong. Like I said every generation has one. In Moses time it was Him, in David's time it was Him, in Hezekiah's time it was him. Even to this very day. Some say Bar Kochba could have been in his time.

[Mailech]

John wrote: So you think that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus?

No you do.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Of course Isaiah 9 is about the Messiah. There's no question about that.

But Hezekiah was the Messiah? God "wanted" him to be but he wasn't worthy? That's just plain silliness.

Really it was about Hezekiah, who might have been the Messiah. You see in every generation there is someone who could be the Messiah, if the generation is worthy of it. Since there has yet to be a generation that is worthy of it, he has not yet come.

That generation will be a haughty generation indeed.

Do you really think God works that way?

It was this haughty spirit that caused the world to reject Messiah in the first place. The sad thing is that you guys are going to accept someone who has the opposite character of Messiah. You guys will esteem Mr. Pride.

Wrong. Like I said every generation has one. In Moses time it was Him, in David's time it was Him, in Hezekiah's time it was him. Even to this very day. Some say Bar Kochba could have been in his time.

Moses wasn't the Messiah, nither was David nor Hezekiah. The Messiah is THE Messiah.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: So you think that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus?

No you do.


Yep. :-D


Do you at least understand that the Angel of the Lord is a visitation of God Himself?

[Mailech]

John wrote: It was this haughty spirit that caused the world to reject Messiah in the first place. The sad thing is that you guys are going to accept someone who has the opposite character of Messiah. You guys will esteem Mr. Pride.

What you say is foolish.

Hey John, if someone is smart are they automatically arogant.

You agree with me that Moses was not an ordinary person. He who was the father of all prophets, who saw G-d "face to face".

Yet the Torah says that he was the most humble of all men.

I recetly mentioned the Chafetz Chaim. He was undoubtably one of the greatest scholars and most pious men in the last hundred years. Yet when you read stories about him, you see he was a very humble man. Just because someone is great does not mean that they are arrogant.

You thinking so shows your iwn prejudice and blindness.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: So you think that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus?

No you do.


Yep. :-D


Do you at least understand that the Angel of the Lord is a visitation of God Himself?

No the Angel of the Lord is exactly what it says, a messenger of G-d

[Mailech]

John wrote: Moses wasn't the Messiah, nither was David nor Hezekiah. The Messiah is THE Messiah.

You bring up a good point, maybe I'll start a thread on that who is the Jewish Messiah and what is his role, read the prophets. His role is to spread the true word of G-d to all the nations. You don't have to be G-d to do that.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Moses wasn't the Messiah, nither was David nor Hezekiah. The Messiah is THE Messiah.

You bring up a good point, maybe I'll start a thread on that who is the Jewish Messiah and what is his role, read the prophets. His role is to spread the true word of G-d to all the nations. You don't have to be G-d to do that.

His word is being spread throughout the nations.


Do you know how and in the name of who?

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Moses wasn't the Messiah, nither was David nor Hezekiah. The Messiah is THE Messiah.

You bring up a good point, maybe I'll start a thread on that who is the Jewish Messiah and what is his role, read the prophets. His role is to spread the true word of G-d to all the nations. You don't have to be G-d to do that.

His word is being spread throughout the nations.


Do you know how and in the name of who?

First of all I mean His real word. Second I do know who is spreading a fascimile, Mohammad

[Israel]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Moses wasn't the Messiah, nither was David nor Hezekiah. The Messiah is THE Messiah.

You bring up a good point, maybe I'll start a thread on that who is the Jewish Messiah and what is his role, read the prophets. His role is to spread the true word of G-d to all the nations. You don't have to be G-d to do that.
My understanding is that the other nations will come to us, not our Messiach will go to other nations. They will recognize the truth of our Messiach and come to us as there will be no purpose for them once they know the truth.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Moses wasn't the Messiah, nither was David nor Hezekiah. The Messiah is THE Messiah.

You bring up a good point, maybe I'll start a thread on that who is the Jewish Messiah and what is his role, read the prophets. His role is to spread the true word of G-d to all the nations. You don't have to be G-d to do that.

His word is being spread throughout the nations.


Do you know how and in the name of who?

First of all I mean His real word. Second I do know who is spreading a fascimile, Mohammad

I read the same Holy book as you.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Moses wasn't the Messiah, nither was David nor Hezekiah. The Messiah is THE Messiah.

You bring up a good point, maybe I'll start a thread on that who is the Jewish Messiah and what is his role, read the prophets. His role is to spread the true word of G-d to all the nations. You don't have to be G-d to do that.

His word is being spread throughout the nations.


Do you know how and in the name of who?

First of all I mean His real word. Second I do know who is spreading a fascimile, Mohammad

I read the same Holy book as you.

Yes you do, plus some other books,

but you are like a child learning to read, some things you get right some you get wrong. I ask my teachers for help when I don't know something, you rely on your inclination.

Why I use phonics and you use whole language learning. We all know which one works better. :lol: