Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Isaiah 9
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.



I've been told that the Jewish understanding of these verses is deferent than the Christian one.....

What exactly are the differences and why?

[Mailech]

Isaiah is known for the method by which he presents many of his messages through the use of prophetic names (Isaiah 7:3, 14; 8:3). In the verse under study, the prophet expounds his message by formulating a prophetic name for Hezekiah. The words of this name form a sentence expressive of God's greatness, which will become manifest in the benefits to be bestowed upon the future king in his lifetime. Thus, the name, though borne by the king, serves, in reality, as a testimonial to God.

Hezekiah is called "a wonderful counselor" because this name is a sign, which foretells God's design for him.


The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying: "As I have thought, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, that I will break Asshur in My land, and upon My mountains trample him under foot; then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulder." This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? (Isaiah 14:24-27)

Be not afraid of the words that you have heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me. Behold, I will put a spirit in him, and he shall hear a rumor, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. (Isaiah 37:6-7)
Hezekiah is called "the mighty God" because this name is a sign that foretells God's defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sennacherib's army.



Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come to this city, nor shoot an arrow there, neither shall he come before it with shield, nor cast a mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and he shall not come to this city, says the Lord. For I will defend this city to save it, for My own sake, and for My servant David's sake. (Isaiah 37:33-35)
Hezekiah is called "the everlasting Father" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. "Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years" (Isaiah 38:5).

Hezekiah is called "the ruler of peace" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. "Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'" (Isaiah 39:8).

The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Archaeologists have found that there was a sudden expansion of Judean settlements in the years following the fall of the northern kingdom. This indicates that many refugees fled south, thus giving added significance to the statement "that the government may be increased."

Hezekiah's kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people "from henceforth and forever." The greatness of Hezekiah lies in his setting the stage for Israel's future. Hezekiah was a true reformer. He cleansed religious worship of foreign influence, purged the palace and the Temple of images and pagan altars, and reestablished pure monotheistic religion.

In the long run Hezekiah's achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people. Thus, God, through Isaiah, bestows upon Hezekiah this name which honors the king by proclaiming the great things God will do for him, and, through him, for the people of Israel.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq070.html

[John]

So you're saying that Isaiah is talking about Hezekiah? :?

I though you guys told me it had something to do with the grammer.

[Mailech]

John wrote: So you're saying that Isaiah is talking about Hezekiah? :?

I though you guys told me it had something to do with the grammer.

Read it in context.

[John]

Past Tense Prophecy?

James Trimm, of SANJ, writes,

"Is. 9:6, 7 ... anti-missionaries LOVE to claim this must be past tense.

Rabbi Singer is one of these.

In reality there is no such thing as tense in Hebrew grammar. Hebrew verbs do not take past, present and future forms, but perfect (completed action) or imperfect (incomplete action). Normally a verb in the perfect form would imply a past tense which is why Singer insists this must be past tense and that it therefore refers to Hezekiah.

In reality there is a special idiom in Hebrew called the "Prophetic Perfect" this is where a prophet speaks of future events in the perfect form because he has seen them in the future where they have already happened. Another example of the prophetic perfect in Is. 5:13:

Therefore my people ARE GONE into captivity...

Now this verb is in the perfect form but it is clearly a future event because the captivity spoken of did not occur in Isaiah's lifetime.

In fact the Targum Jonathan to Isaiah 9:6-7 clearly identifies this figure as the Messiah. And the PEREK HA SHALOM; NUMBERS RABBAH XI, 16-20) has:

Rabbi Jose the Galilean says: The name of the Messiah too is "peace"; as it is written: "God the mighty, the everlasting Father, the ruler of peace" (Quoting Is. 9:5-6 (6-7))

So even the ancient sages understood Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7 in some editions) to refer to a FUTURE MESSIAH. Why would they do this if this passage supposedly obviously speaks of the past? Obviously it does NOT have to be in the past tense. Like Isaiah 5:13 it is written in the prophetic perfect.

Now I do not know If Rabbi Singer makes these claims about Isaiah 9 because he is being dishonest, or because he just does not know Hebrew grammar that well."

Hezekiah

"The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to appoint Hezekiah as the Messiah, and Sennacherib as Gog and Magog; whereupon the Attribute of Justice said before the Holy One, blessed be He: 'Sovereign of the Universe! 'If Thou didst not make David the Messiah, who uttered so many hymns and psalms before Thee, wilt Thou appoint Hezekiah as such, who did not hymn Thee in spite of all these miracles which Thou wroughtest for him?' Thererfore it [sc. the mem] was closed. Straightway the earth exclaimed 'Soveriegn of the Universe! Let me utter song before Thee instead of this righteous man [Hezekiah], and make him the Messiah.' So it broke into song before Him, as it is written, From the uttersmost part of the earth we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. Then the Prince of the Universe said to Him: 'Soverieng of the Universe! It [the earth] hath fulfilled They desire [for songs of praise] on behalf of this righteous man. But a heavenly Voice cried out, 'It is my secret. It is my secret.' "
Sanhedrin 94a, Soncino Press Edition

The Holy One, blessed be He, said: Let Hezekiah, who hath eight [shemoneh] names, come and mete out punishment to Sennacherib, who hath [likewise] eight. Hezekiah, as it is written, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the govenment shal be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called [i] Wonderful, [ii] Counsellor, [iii] Judge, [iv]Mighty,[v] Father,[vi] Everlasting,[vii] Prince and [viii]Peace.
Sanhedrin 94a, Soncino Press Edition

R. Hillel said: There shall be no Messiah for Israel, because they have already enjoyed him in the days of Hezekiah. R. Joseph said: May God forgive him [for saying so]. Now when did Hezekiah flourish? During the first Temple. Yet Zechariah, prophesying in the days of the second proclaims, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, thy king comth unto thee! he is just, and having salvation; lowly and riding upon an ass, and upon the colt the foal of an ass.
Sanhedrin 99a, Soncino Press Edition

Wonderful

The Angel of YHVH appeared to [Manoach's wife], and said to her, "Behold now, you are barren, and bear not: but you shall conceive, and bear a son. . . the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. Then the woman came and told her husband saying, 'A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very awesome . . . he did not tell me his name. . . And Manoach said to the Angel of YHVH, "What is your name, that when your sayings come to pass, we may honor you?" And the Angel of YHVH said unto him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is Wonderful?1"
" . . . and Manoach said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God."
Judges 13:3,5-6 (partial), 17-18, 22



Continued here!!

[Mailech]

If you are talking about the Grammer, I don't have it in front of me but from my recolection it should read

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father shall call him Prince of Peace

[Mailech]

John wrote: In reality there is no such thing as tense in Hebrew grammar. Hebrew verbs do not take past, present and future forms, but perfect (completed action) or imperfect (incomplete action). Normally a verb in the perfect form would imply a past tense which is why Singer insists this must be past tense and that it therefore refers to Hezekiah.

A blatant lie, there is a definite past , present and future tense. The only tricky thing is what is known as the Vav HaMehapechet, which changes past to future and future to past.

[John]

Mailech wrote: If you are talking about the Grammer, I don't have it in front of me but from my recolection it should read

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father shall call him Prince of Peace


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132602110-1513.html#6

Here it is..Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint.


You're wrong. :wink:

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: In reality there is no such thing as tense in Hebrew grammar. Hebrew verbs do not take past, present and future forms, but perfect (completed action) or imperfect (incomplete action). Normally a verb in the perfect form would imply a past tense which is why Singer insists this must be past tense and that it therefore refers to Hezekiah.

A blatant lie, there is a definite past , present and future tense. The only tricky thing is what is known as the Vav HaMehapechet, which changes past to future and future to past.

http://messianicart.com/contact.htm

Let's confront him.

[Duchifas]

Quote: In reality there is no such thing as tense in Hebrew grammar.

I'll send an angry note to my high school Hebrew teacher. It appears that she lied to me for 4 years. And she didn't even blush. Oh, the chutzpah!

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: If you are talking about the Grammer, I don't have it in front of me but from my recolection it should read

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father shall call him Prince of Peace


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132602110-1513.html#6

Here it is..Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint.


You're wrong. :wink:

I already told you the Septuagint only translated the Torah, the Church did the rest, so I really don't care what that says.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: If you are talking about the Grammer, I don't have it in front of me but from my recolection it should read

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father shall call him Prince of Peace


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132602110-1513.html#6

Here it is..Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint.


You're wrong. :wink:

I already told you the Septuagint only translated the Torah, the Church did the rest, so I really don't care what that says.

Maybe you care about how the Talmud translated it.


Sanhedrin 94
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness.28 What is meant by, among his fat ones [bemishmanav]29 leanness? — The Holy One, blessed be He, said: Let Hezekiah, who hath eight [shemoneh] names, come and mete out punishment to Sennacherib, who hath [likewise] eight.30 Hezekiah, as it is written, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called [i] Wonderful, [ii] Counsellor, [iii] Mighty, [iv] Judge,31 [v] Everlasting, [vi] Father, [vii] Prince, and [viii] Peace.32 But is there not Hezekiah too?33

[Mailech]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: So you're saying that Isaiah is talking about Hezekiah? :?

I though you guys told me it had something to do with the grammer.

Read it in context.

If you read before Isaiah is talking about the Assyria attacking the both Israel and Judah, acting harsher than before when he only exiled Naftali and Gad.
He will make it till Judah, till Judah is swallowed up to his neck, but there will be one born who will save them as miraculously as Gideon was saved from Midean. Just as 300 people beat 120,000 without any weapons, so to Hezkiah beat Assyria without drawing a sword. But still Israel did not learn and so they were exiled.

[Secondary Oak]

John wrote: In reality there is no such thing as tense in Hebrew grammar. Hebrew verbs do not take past, present and future forms, but perfect (completed action) or imperfect (incomplete action).

Hebrew has 4 tense forms: Past, present, future and command. I don't know how exactly they translate to the gazillion English tense forms*, but saying Hebrew doesn't have past, present and future tense is one of the weirdest claims I've seen lately.


* the multitude of English tense forms is probably my weakest point in English - and I'm not alone, many non-native speakers struggle with your "have not been had will done that" thingies.

[John]

Mailech wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: So you're saying that Isaiah is talking about Hezekiah? :?

I though you guys told me it had something to do with the grammer.

Read it in context.

If you read before Isaiah is talking about the Assyria attacking the both Israel and Judah, acting harsher than before when he only exiled Naftali and Gad.
He will make it till Judah, till Judah is swallowed up to his neck, but there will be one born who will save them as miraculously as Gideon was saved from Midean. Just as 300 people beat 120,000 without any weapons, so to Hezkiah beat Assyria without drawing a sword. But still Israel did not learn and so they were exiled.

No. Hezkiah didn't beat anyone. The Angel of the LORD did.

[John]

Secondary Oak wrote: John wrote: In reality there is no such thing as tense in Hebrew grammar. Hebrew verbs do not take past, present and future forms, but perfect (completed action) or imperfect (incomplete action).

Hebrew has 4 tense forms: Past, present, future and command. I don't know how exactly they translate to the gazillion English tense forms*, but saying Hebrew doesn't have past, present and future tense is one of the weirdest claims I've seen lately.


* the multitude of English tense forms is probably my weakest point in English - and I'm not alone, many non-native speakers struggle with your "have not been had will done that" thingies.

I didn't say it..

B.R. Burton did. Like I said.....confront him about it. I'd like to see what he says.

http://messianicart.com/contact.htm

[John]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: If you are talking about the Grammer, I don't have it in front of me but from my recolection it should read

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father shall call him Prince of Peace


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132602110-1513.html#6

Here it is..Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint.


You're wrong. :wink:

I already told you the Septuagint only translated the Torah, the Church did the rest, so I really don't care what that says.

Maybe you care about how the Talmud translated it.


Sanhedrin 94
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness.28 What is meant by, among his fat ones [bemishmanav]29 leanness? — The Holy One, blessed be He, said: Let Hezekiah, who hath eight [shemoneh] names, come and mete out punishment to Sennacherib, who hath [likewise] eight.30 Hezekiah, as it is written, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called [i] Wonderful, [ii] Counsellor, [iii] Mighty, [iv] Judge,31 [v] Everlasting, [vi] Father, [vii] Prince, and [viii] Peace.32 But is there not Hezekiah too?33

Well?

[Secondary Oak]

John wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: John wrote: In reality there is no such thing as tense in Hebrew grammar. Hebrew verbs do not take past, present and future forms, but perfect (completed action) or imperfect (incomplete action).

Hebrew has 4 tense forms: Past, present, future and command. I don't know how exactly they translate to the gazillion English tense forms*, but saying Hebrew doesn't have past, present and future tense is one of the weirdest claims I've seen lately.


* the multitude of English tense forms is probably my weakest point in English - and I'm not alone, many non-native speakers struggle with your "have not been had will done that" thingies.

I didn't say it..

B.R. Burton did. Like I said.....confront him about it. I'd like to see what he says.

http://messianicart.com/contact.htm
I was just explaining it to you and other hypothetical forum readers.

[John]

Secondary Oak wrote: John wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: John wrote: In reality there is no such thing as tense in Hebrew grammar. Hebrew verbs do not take past, present and future forms, but perfect (completed action) or imperfect (incomplete action).

Hebrew has 4 tense forms: Past, present, future and command. I don't know how exactly they translate to the gazillion English tense forms*, but saying Hebrew doesn't have past, present and future tense is one of the weirdest claims I've seen lately.


* the multitude of English tense forms is probably my weakest point in English - and I'm not alone, many non-native speakers struggle with your "have not been had will done that" thingies.

I didn't say it..

B.R. Burton did. Like I said.....confront him about it. I'd like to see what he says.

http://messianicart.com/contact.htm
I was just explaining it to you and other hypothetical forum readers.

Seriously...I would like to see what he says. Are you willing to confront him on the issue?

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: If you are talking about the Grammer, I don't have it in front of me but from my recolection it should read

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father shall call him Prince of Peace


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132602110-1513.html#6

Here it is..Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint.


You're wrong. :wink:

I already told you the Septuagint only translated the Torah, the Church did the rest, so I really don't care what that says.

Maybe you care about how the Talmud translated it.


Sanhedrin 94
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness.28 What is meant by, among his fat ones [bemishmanav]29 leanness? — The Holy One, blessed be He, said: Let Hezekiah, who hath eight [shemoneh] names, come and mete out punishment to Sennacherib, who hath [likewise] eight.30 Hezekiah, as it is written, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called [i] Wonderful, [ii] Counsellor, [iii] Mighty, [iv] Judge,31 [v] Everlasting, [vi] Father, [vii] Prince, and [viii] Peace.32 But is there not Hezekiah too?33

This is not the literal translation. Look at the way it is parsed. This is more on the level of drash.

Are you saying here that Hezekiah was the Messiah?

the truth is that the Gemara over there says that indeed those verses are about the Messiah, so you are right John. They are about the Messiah Hezekiah, and in fact it says that G-d wanted to make Hezekiah "THE MESSIAH" but he was not worthy.