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John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:53 am Post subject: Law of Cleansing a Leper

Leviticus 14

1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,

2 "This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing. Now he shall be brought to the priest,

3 and the priest shall go out to the outside of the camp. Thus the priest shall look, and if the infection of leprosy has been healed in the leper,

4then the priest shall give orders to take two live clean birds and cedar wood and a scarlet string and hyssop for the one who is to be cleansed.

5 "The priest shall also give orders to slay the one bird in an earthenware vessel over running water.

6 "As for the live bird, he shall take it together with the cedar wood and the scarlet string and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the live bird in the blood of the bird that was slain over the running water.

7 "He shall then sprinkle seven times the one who is to be cleansed from the leprosy and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the live bird go free over the open field.

8 "The one to be cleansed shall then wash his clothes and shave off all his hair and bathe in water and be clean Now afterward, he may enter the camp, but he shall stay outside his tent for seven days.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2014&version=49

What's this all about?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

Could you be a bit more specific?

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Law of Cleansing a Leper

Mailech wrote: Could you be a bit more specific?

I've done some research and I can't find an example of this ritual actually curing leprosy.

So what's going on here? I don't think it's just "filler" text.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

John wrote: Mailech wrote: Could you be a bit more specific?

I've done some research and I can't find an example of this ritual actually curing leprosy.

So what's going on here? I don't think it's just "filler" text.

That is because leprosy is a really really really bad translation for Tsara'at. There is no English word for it. It is a spiritual malady not to be confused with leprosy.

The most commonly accepted sin for which tsara'at was a punishment was for slander and gossiping.
If you want to know why read the book 'Shemiras Ha'Lashon' by the Chafetz Chaim (aka Rabbi Yisroel Meyer Kagen HaCohen)

The proof that it was not leprosy is the fact that it can infect buildings, furniture and clothes. Furthermore, a person who was covered from head to toe with it was not considered impure, if it was leprosy, you are no longer contageous of you have a total infection.

Lastly the ritual that you talk about above was not to cure the tsara'at, it was to purify the person after he was cured. The only was to get cured was to pray and repent.

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Law of Cleansing a Leper

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Could you be a bit more specific?

I've done some research and I can't find an example of this ritual actually curing leprosy.

So what's going on here? I don't think it's just "filler" text.

That is because leprosy is a really really really bad translation for Tsara'at. There is no English word for it. It is a spiritual malady not to be confused with leprosy.

The most commonly accepted sin for which tsara'at was a punishment was for slander and gossiping.
If you want to know why read the book 'Shemiras Ha'Lashon' by the Chafetz Chaim (aka Rabbi Yisroel Meyer Kagen HaCohen)

The proof that it was not leprosy is the fact that it can infect buildings, furniture and clothes. Furthermore, a person who was covered from head to toe with it was not considered impure, if it was leprosy, you are no longer contageous of you have a total infection.

Lastly the ritual that you talk about above was not to cure the tsara'at, it was to purify the person after he was cured. The only was to get cured was to pray and repent.

Well, I personally believe that the "leprosy" here is a picture of sin.

But I also don't really buy the explanation that this chapter in Leviticus isn't talking about actual leprosy as in the infection. It is...there's really no way around that...not without really twisting things around.

One of the reasons why I know that it was talking about actual leprosy is because when Jesus cured people from leprosy...He told them to present the offering to the High Priest as requested in Lev. Even if you believe that it's "made up" that Jesus did this. It kind of hard to explain that a Jew who lived in the time of the second Temple didn't understand what Lev is talking about.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

John wrote: Well, I personally believe that the "leprosy" here is a picture of sin.

But I also don't really buy the explanation that this chapter in Leviticus isn't talking about actual leprosy as in the infection. It is...there's really no way around that...not without really twisting things around.

One of the reasons why I know that it was talking about actual leprosy is because when Jesus cured people from leprosy...He told them to present the offering to the High Priest as requested in Lev. Even if you believe that it's "made up" that Jesus did this. It kind of hard to explain that a Jew who lived in the time of the second Temple didn't understand what Lev is talking about.

Well like I said, unless leprosy can exist on walls, clothes and furniture, then it is not leprosy.

Maybe Jesus didn't know what he was talking about, so when he cured the lepers and the told them to give an offering, they where probably like, thanks for the cure but you must be an idiot, I had leprosy, not tsara'at.

Again to repeat myself, it was an issue of purity and impurity. I honestly don't know much about leprosy, has it ever been cured in a week? Why would someone who is totally infected not be removed from the camp?
Assuming it is leprosy and is able to be spread onto buildings, why would the priest empty out the building before going to inspect it. Would that not let the infection spread? it either did or didn't if it is just a physical ailment. Why did Miriam get it after she talked badly of her brother, and why was she cured in just a week, if it is real leprosy?

It really makes no sense to say that it is leprosy. I think that the real translations just transliterate it, since there is no English word for it.

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject:

Quote: Why did Miriam get it after she talked badly of her brother, and why was she cured in just a week, if it is real leprosy?

Because God cured her. Isn't that the point?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

John wrote: Quote: Why did Miriam get it after she talked badly of her brother, and why was she cured in just a week, if it is real leprosy?

Because God cured her. Isn't that the point?

fine. the other points still remain.

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:35 pm Post subject:

How does a spiritual malady spread into buildings?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

John wrote: How does a spiritual malady spread into buildings?

Because G-d put it there. First G-d puts it on the building as a warning, if that is not heeded then it goes to the clothes, if that is not heeded it goes to the person, and then he has it until he repents.

That is why it can go anywhere it wants, because G-d can put it anywhere He wants.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: How does a spiritual malady spread into buildings?

How did the sea split? And how did the Nile turn into blood?

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject:

Mailech wrote: John wrote: How does a spiritual malady spread into buildings?

Because G-d put it there. First G-d puts it on the building as a warning, if that is not heeded then it goes to the clothes, if that is not heeded it goes to the person, and then he has it until he repents.

That is why it can go anywhere it wants, because G-d can put it anywhere He wants.

Doesn't the building need a "spirit" in order for it to obtain a spiritual malady?

The bacteria that cause leprosy can live inside of material of a building.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: How does a spiritual malady spread into buildings?

Because G-d put it there. First G-d puts it on the building as a warning, if that is not heeded then it goes to the clothes, if that is not heeded it goes to the person, and then he has it until he repents.

That is why it can go anywhere it wants, because G-d can put it anywhere He wants.

Doesn't the building need a "spirit" in order for it to obtain a spiritual malady?

The bacteria that cause leprosy can live inside of material of a building.

Did you not read what I just wrote?
I has physical symptoms and maybe it has a bacteria associated with it, I don't know and don't care. It is a punishment for the PERSON to have his house get tsaraat.

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject:

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: How does a spiritual malady spread into buildings?

Because G-d put it there. First G-d puts it on the building as a warning, if that is not heeded then it goes to the clothes, if that is not heeded it goes to the person, and then he has it until he repents.

That is why it can go anywhere it wants, because G-d can put it anywhere He wants.

Doesn't the building need a "spirit" in order for it to obtain a spiritual malady?

The bacteria that cause leprosy can live inside of material of a building.

Did you not read what I just wrote?
I has physical symptoms and maybe it has a bacteria associated with it, I don't know and don't care. It is a punishment for the PERSON to have his house get tsaraat.

Where do you get that from?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

John wrote: Where do you get that from?

Well it sure isn't a good thing!

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

Besides, even if the bactria can exist in a building and I am sure it can, will the building show symptoms, I highly doubt it.

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:00 pm Post subject:

Mailech wrote: Besides, even if the bactria can exist in a building and I am sure it can, will the building show symptoms, I highly doubt it.

Mold. :-D

Seriously though...how would the house show signs of "spiritual leprosy"?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2537

John wrote: Mailech wrote: Besides, even if the bactria can exist in a building and I am sure it can, will the building show symptoms, I highly doubt it.

Mold. :-D

Seriously though...how would the house show signs of "spiritual leprosy"?

Let me rephrase since we are having a definition problem.

The tsara'at is a physical ailment that comes about because of spiritual reasons. When a person gossips and slanders he gets punished, that punishment is tsara'at.

Before G-d inflicts this punishment on the person himself and forces him out of the camp, He first displays the symptoms on the walls of the house, I am not sure about all the laws, but basically either it goes away or you knock down the walls. If the person despite this continues to sin in the above manner his clothes shown the symptoms. These either go away or are burned. If the person continues to sin and not repent then his body gets symptoms and he is forced out of the camp until he gets better.

If a person is so debased that the tsara'at covers every inch of his body then there is no point in sending him out of the camp, he will not learn his lesson, he is allowed to stay. If he begins to repent and some of it goes away, and then he is sent out to finish his repentance

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject:

Quote: When a person gossips and slanders he gets punished, that punishment is tsara'at.

Why don't you have it?

John · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject:

Quote: Before G-d inflicts this punishment on the person himself and forces him out of the camp, He first displays the symptoms on the walls of the house, I am not sure about all the laws, but basically either it goes away or you knock down the walls. If the person despite this continues to sin in the above manner his clothes shown the symptoms. These either go away or are burned. If the person continues to sin and not repent then his body gets symptoms and he is forced out of the camp until he gets better.

So Miriam didn't get the courtesy house and clothe warnings?