Political Crossfire Forums

Lucky Luke · Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 8662 Location: Scotland

Snow Patrol wrote: Look im not debating you anymore because you have no evidence, make the same regurgitated points, have little or no grasp of facts, take wild personal speculation taken as blunt fact...
.................They have not been asked because they don't want it, where's the mass street protests demanding it, where's the mass independence/SNP rally's, where's the support for it in the polls? where's the demands for a referendum? why is there declining support for those parties favouring independence over devolution?

You cannot prove it because it is not there.

I got it Snow Patrol from one of your links, in 2003 a poll was conducted and Scottish people were asked the question I want them to be asked and guess what happened?

Quote: Q7 Do you think there should or should not be a referendum held to measure the level of public support for full Scottish independence from the United Kingdom?

Yes, there should be a referendum...................71 %
No, there should not be a referendum...............21 %
Don't know...................................................... 8 %
http://www.mori.com/polls/2003/scottishelection.shtml

It is what the Scottish people wanted to have a referendum on full Scottish independence and yet they were denied.

Scotland was robbed, again. You said Scottish people did not want a referendum on full independence, you were wrong. When will we get a referendum Snow Patrol?

:-D
:-D

Ch33kY · Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 1281

I chose Republic.

The problem with the national referendum was that many people didn't vote for Republic simply because they want to maintain the current political system - the Westminster System.

edit: We need to remove the Govenor General and his/her powers, and change the Constitution! Furthermore, establish a Bill of Civil Rights, somewhat like the USA.

If we change to a Republic, we should replace on the national flag the Union Jack with the Aboriginal Flag, as below:

Ch33kY · Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 1281

Lucky Luke wrote: Snow Patrol wrote: Look im not debating you anymore because you have no evidence, make the same regurgitated points, have little or no grasp of facts, take wild personal speculation taken as blunt fact...
.................They have not been asked because they don't want it, where's the mass street protests demanding it, where's the mass independence/SNP rally's, where's the support for it in the polls? where's the demands for a referendum? why is there declining support for those parties favouring independence over devolution?

You cannot prove it because it is not there.

I got it Snow Patrol from one of your links, in 2003 a poll was conducted and Scottish people were asked the question I want them to be asked and guess what happened?

Quote: Q7 Do you think there should or should not be a referendum held to measure the level of public support for full Scottish independence from the United Kingdom?

Yes, there should be a referendum...................71 %
No, there should not be a referendum...............21 %
Don't know...................................................... 8 %
http://www.mori.com/polls/2003/scottishelection.shtml

It is what the Scottish people wanted to have a referendum on full Scottish independence and yet they were denied.

Scotland was robbed, again. You said Scottish people did not want a referendum on full independence, you were wrong. When will we get a referendum Snow Patrol?

:-D
:-D

Scottish people shouldn't be allowed to rule themselves because their governement wouldn't spend any of the money collected form taxes.

I've Scottish herritage and have seen first hand how cheap they are!! :lol:

Lucky Luke · Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 8662 Location: Scotland

Ch33kY wrote:

Scottish people shouldn't be allowed to rule themselves because their governement wouldn't spend any of the money collected form taxes.

I've Scottish herritage and have seen first hand how cheap they are!! :lol:

Too late the Scottish Parliament has tax raising power but it is spending our money like if there were no tomorrow.

:-D
:-D

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK · Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:32 am Post subject:

Ch33kY wrote: I chose Republic.

The problem with the national referendum was that many people didn't vote for Republic simply because they want to maintain the current political system - the Westminster System.

edit: We need to remove the Govenor General and his/her powers, and change the Constitution! Furthermore, establish a Bill of Civil Rights, somewhat like the USA.

If we change to a Republic, we should replace on the national flag the Union Jack with the Aboriginal Flag, as below:

That is desecration of the flag and I am highly offended, my family and I did not fight to protect any other flag except for the one that has the union jack in it. Why should we have the aborigional flag in place of the union jack, that is an utter disgrace.

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK · Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:52 am Post subject:

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Thats only because our immigration policy sux and we are letting the wrong people in. One in three aussies still has ties to the UK, I guarentee that Australia will not be a republic within 100 years. In the last referendum, it was the vast majority against the republic and those who do support a republic cannot agree on a model.

in the referendum a lot of people didn't vote. Unlike our elections it was not compulsory. The wording of the referendum was problematic also, and this was pointed out and discussed ad infinitum. The referendum was NOT about whether we should be a republic or not, but what model of republic we should have.

we won't be tied to the british crown in 100 years - britain may well be a republic by then.

My point exactly why trying to prevent the inevitable by changing the rules to suit a status quo?

I really believe that a more simply worded referendum in Australia would have ended the reign of the English Queen over Australia.
:-D
:-D

definitely. if it had been a simple, should australia be a republic? yes or no? rather than confusing the issue with the unwarranted detail, far more people would have supported a republic.

Duckie may not be aware (since he's only third generation and not a REAL Australian) but we were used in WWI and WWII, and the guy Duckie uses in his signature - Rommel treated Australians far more honourably than did the British. The British high command ordered the torpedoeing of the Nino Bixio, knowing the ship was filled with allied prisoners, rather than her accompanying destroyers which would have been better military targets. These were the same men who had been captured by Rommel at Ruin Ridge, so they could see the contrast.

A familiarity with this part of our history has influenced some to be quite anti the crown, if not the British.

What do you mean I am not a "real" Australian? You should be deported for your lack of patriotism. I fought for my country and I was born here so I don't know how you figure that, I think it shows your ignorance.

You are not a real australian. your family doesn't have a long enough history. to me you are further from being australian than those lebs are relative to you.

My ancestors were pioneers here. they didn't come in the boom times of the post war period. My father and my grandfather fought for this country. I think I know a bit more about what a real australian is than you do duckie.

furthermore, I don't think people like you should be able to vote in a referendum on a republic. you still have your roots in england, matey, so as far as I'm concerned you're a bloody pom! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

My family were pioneers to, knob jockey. My grandmother was born o/s and she wasn't born in England so your dead wrong there. My father was awarded the order of Australia medal and these are my honours and awards.

AASM (East Timor and Iraq clasp)
UN Transitional Administration East Timor Medal
ICB
Iraq Campaign Medal, being gazetted, still to be awarded
Australian Defence Medal, being gazetted, still to be awarded

Pretty damn good for a "non aussie", if a bloke called me that in a pub I'd deck him and if a woman called me that well I'd probably knock her boyfriend out and say, "your move hun".

Its been done b4. 8:)

cassandrabandra · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 762

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Ch33kY wrote: I chose Republic.

The problem with the national referendum was that many people didn't vote for Republic simply because they want to maintain the current political system - the Westminster System.

edit: We need to remove the Govenor General and his/her powers, and change the Constitution! Furthermore, establish a Bill of Civil Rights, somewhat like the USA.

If we change to a Republic, we should replace on the national flag the Union Jack with the Aboriginal Flag, as below:

That is desecration of the flag and I am highly offended, my family and I did not fight to protect any other flag except for the one that has the union jack in it. Why should we have the aborigional flag in place of the union jack, that is an utter disgrace.

the flag isn't the issue. but for what its worth, I don't believe we need the union jack in our flag.

cassandrabandra · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 762

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Thats only because our immigration policy sux and we are letting the wrong people in. One in three aussies still has ties to the UK, I guarentee that Australia will not be a republic within 100 years. In the last referendum, it was the vast majority against the republic and those who do support a republic cannot agree on a model.

in the referendum a lot of people didn't vote. Unlike our elections it was not compulsory. The wording of the referendum was problematic also, and this was pointed out and discussed ad infinitum. The referendum was NOT about whether we should be a republic or not, but what model of republic we should have.

we won't be tied to the british crown in 100 years - britain may well be a republic by then.

My point exactly why trying to prevent the inevitable by changing the rules to suit a status quo?

I really believe that a more simply worded referendum in Australia would have ended the reign of the English Queen over Australia.
:-D
:-D

definitely. if it had been a simple, should australia be a republic? yes or no? rather than confusing the issue with the unwarranted detail, far more people would have supported a republic.

Duckie may not be aware (since he's only third generation and not a REAL Australian) but we were used in WWI and WWII, and the guy Duckie uses in his signature - Rommel treated Australians far more honourably than did the British. The British high command ordered the torpedoeing of the Nino Bixio, knowing the ship was filled with allied prisoners, rather than her accompanying destroyers which would have been better military targets. These were the same men who had been captured by Rommel at Ruin Ridge, so they could see the contrast.

A familiarity with this part of our history has influenced some to be quite anti the crown, if not the British.

What do you mean I am not a "real" Australian? You should be deported for your lack of patriotism. I fought for my country and I was born here so I don't know how you figure that, I think it shows your ignorance.

You are not a real australian. your family doesn't have a long enough history. to me you are further from being australian than those lebs are relative to you.

My ancestors were pioneers here. they didn't come in the boom times of the post war period. My father and my grandfather fought for this country. I think I know a bit more about what a real australian is than you do duckie.

furthermore, I don't think people like you should be able to vote in a referendum on a republic. you still have your roots in england, matey, so as far as I'm concerned you're a bloody pom! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

My family were pioneers to, knob jockey. My grandmother was born o/s and she wasn't born in England so your dead wrong there. My father was awarded the order of Australia medal and these are my honours and awards.

AASM (East Timor and Iraq clasp)
UN Transitional Administration East Timor Medal
ICB
Iraq Campaign Medal, being gazetted, still to be awarded
Australian Defence Medal, being gazetted, still to be awarded

Pretty damn good for a "non aussie", if a bloke called me that in a pub I'd deck him and if a woman called me that well I'd probably knock her boyfriend out and say, "your move hun".

Its been done b4. 8:)

after seeing your post on the other thread, I realised that your history in this country was not so recent.

My comment about you not being a 'real' australian was tongue in cheek, and based on your statement that your grandmother was born overseas. My interpretation that she must have been a pom was based on your stance on this issue.

I won't apologise, because it was said in jest. And besides, the aggressive tone in your posts suggests that it would mean nothing to you anyway.

Lucky Luke · Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 8662 Location: Scotland

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:

Ch33kY wrote: edit: We need to remove the Govenor General and his/her powers, and change the Constitution! Furthermore, establish a Bill of Civil Rights, somewhat like the USA.

If we change to a Republic, we should replace on the national flag the Union Jack with the Aboriginal Flag, as below:

That is desecration of the flag and I am highly offended, my family and I did not fight to protect any other flag except for the one that has the union jack in it. Why should we have the aborigional flag in place of the union jack, that is an utter disgrace.

The union jack will mean nothing shortly, what will you do once the union is no more SPOTTEDGREENDUCK?

:-D
:-D

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK · Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:43 am Post subject:

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Ch33kY wrote: I chose Republic.

The problem with the national referendum was that many people didn't vote for Republic simply because they want to maintain the current political system - the Westminster System.

edit: We need to remove the Govenor General and his/her powers, and change the Constitution! Furthermore, establish a Bill of Civil Rights, somewhat like the USA.

If we change to a Republic, we should replace on the national flag the Union Jack with the Aboriginal Flag, as below:

That is desecration of the flag and I am highly offended, my family and I did not fight to protect any other flag except for the one that has the union jack in it. Why should we have the aborigional flag in place of the union jack, that is an utter disgrace.

the flag isn't the issue. but for what its worth, I don't believe we need the union jack in our flag.

I am not saying you are wrong but the egg yolk on the red and black placemat is DEFINANTLY not the answer!

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK · Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:44 am Post subject:

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Thats only because our immigration policy sux and we are letting the wrong people in. One in three aussies still has ties to the UK, I guarentee that Australia will not be a republic within 100 years. In the last referendum, it was the vast majority against the republic and those who do support a republic cannot agree on a model.

in the referendum a lot of people didn't vote. Unlike our elections it was not compulsory. The wording of the referendum was problematic also, and this was pointed out and discussed ad infinitum. The referendum was NOT about whether we should be a republic or not, but what model of republic we should have.

we won't be tied to the british crown in 100 years - britain may well be a republic by then.

My point exactly why trying to prevent the inevitable by changing the rules to suit a status quo?

I really believe that a more simply worded referendum in Australia would have ended the reign of the English Queen over Australia.
:-D
:-D

definitely. if it had been a simple, should australia be a republic? yes or no? rather than confusing the issue with the unwarranted detail, far more people would have supported a republic.

Duckie may not be aware (since he's only third generation and not a REAL Australian) but we were used in WWI and WWII, and the guy Duckie uses in his signature - Rommel treated Australians far more honourably than did the British. The British high command ordered the torpedoeing of the Nino Bixio, knowing the ship was filled with allied prisoners, rather than her accompanying destroyers which would have been better military targets. These were the same men who had been captured by Rommel at Ruin Ridge, so they could see the contrast.

A familiarity with this part of our history has influenced some to be quite anti the crown, if not the British.

What do you mean I am not a "real" Australian? You should be deported for your lack of patriotism. I fought for my country and I was born here so I don't know how you figure that, I think it shows your ignorance.

You are not a real australian. your family doesn't have a long enough history. to me you are further from being australian than those lebs are relative to you.

My ancestors were pioneers here. they didn't come in the boom times of the post war period. My father and my grandfather fought for this country. I think I know a bit more about what a real australian is than you do duckie.

furthermore, I don't think people like you should be able to vote in a referendum on a republic. you still have your roots in england, matey, so as far as I'm concerned you're a bloody pom! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

My family were pioneers to, knob jockey. My grandmother was born o/s and she wasn't born in England so your dead wrong there. My father was awarded the order of Australia medal and these are my honours and awards.

AASM (East Timor and Iraq clasp)
UN Transitional Administration East Timor Medal
ICB
Iraq Campaign Medal, being gazetted, still to be awarded
Australian Defence Medal, being gazetted, still to be awarded

Pretty damn good for a "non aussie", if a bloke called me that in a pub I'd deck him and if a woman called me that well I'd probably knock her boyfriend out and say, "your move hun".

Its been done b4. 8:)

after seeing your post on the other thread, I realised that your history in this country was not so recent.

My comment about you not being a 'real' australian was tongue in cheek, and based on your statement that your grandmother was born overseas. My interpretation that she must have been a pom was based on your stance on this issue.

I won't apologise, because it was said in jest. And besides, the aggressive tone in your posts suggests that it would mean nothing to you anyway.
we're cool

cassandrabandra · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 762

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: we're cool

LOL I guess you might be ridji dij

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:33 am Post subject:

What would austrilians say to becoming part of a federal republic with Britian and other former empire states?

cassandrabandra · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 762

thefranzkafkafront wrote: What would austrilians say to becoming part of a federal republic with Britian and other former empire states?

haven't thought about that possibility.

I wonder would that work? I think there would be many who would baulk at the economic implications of this.

There could be implications for immigration here too - those who belonged to the federal republic would not have immigration restrictions, and clearly this would raise issues as many are culturally diverse and economically impoverished nations.

I would think also that you may end up with a two tiered republic - one in which OZ, the UK and Britain (and maybe a few others) set themselves apart from the rest - for economic, cultural and political reasons.

Lucky Luke · Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 8662 Location: Scotland

cassandrabandra wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: What would austrilians say to becoming part of a federal republic with Britian and other former empire states?

haven't thought about that possibility.

I wonder would that work? I think there would be many who would baulk at the economic implications of this.

There could be implications for immigration here too - those who belonged to the federal republic would not have immigration restrictions, and clearly this would raise issues as many are culturally diverse and economically impoverished nations.

I would think also that you may end up with a two tiered republic - one in which OZ, the UK and Britain (and maybe a few others) set themselves apart from the rest - for economic, cultural and political reasons.

And Britain would have to leave the EU, not going to happen the ROI is a great European success that Scotland cannot wait to follow Britain won't survive very long.

:-D
:-D

Snow Patrol · Joined: 30 May 2005 Posts: 2175 Location: Glasgow

Lucky Luke wrote: Snow Patrol wrote: Look im not debating you anymore because you have no evidence, make the same regurgitated points, have little or no grasp of facts, take wild personal speculation taken as blunt fact...
.................They have not been asked because they don't want it, where's the mass street protests demanding it, where's the mass independence/SNP rally's, where's the support for it in the polls? where's the demands for a referendum? why is there declining support for those parties favouring independence over devolution?

You cannot prove it because it is not there.

I got it Snow Patrol from one of your links, in 2003 a poll was conducted and Scottish people were asked the question I want them to be asked and guess what happened?

Quote: Q7 Do you think there should or should not be a referendum held to measure the level of public support for full Scottish independence from the United Kingdom?

Yes, there should be a referendum...................71 %
No, there should not be a referendum...............21 %
Don't know...................................................... 8 %
http://www.mori.com/polls/2003/scottishelection.shtml

It is what the Scottish people wanted to have a referendum on full Scottish independence and yet they were denied.

Scotland was robbed, again. You said Scottish people did not want a referendum on full independence, you were wrong. When will we get a referendum Snow Patrol?

:-D
:-D
Yes i saw that, i do read my own links. However what you seem to fail to grasp is that there is no time reference on that question. All it states is that people believe there should be a referendum on independence at some point, as i and most others i know who take an interest on the subject do. I did not say Scottish people did not want a referendum ever on the subject, i said there was not enough demand for it at the moment:

Snow Patrol wrote: They have not been asked because they don't want it, where's the mass street protests demanding it, where's the mass independence/SNP rally's, where's the support for it in the polls? where's the demands for a referendum? why is there declining support for those parties favouring independence over devolution?
Again, your reading comprehension seems to be lacking.

Lucky Luke · Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 8662 Location: Scotland

Snow Patrol wrote:
Yes i saw that, i do read my own links. However what you seem to fail to grasp is that there is no time reference on that question. All it states is that people believe there should be a referendum on independence at some point, as i and most others i know who take an interest on the subject do. I did not say Scottish people did not want a referendum ever on the subject, i said there was not enough demand for it at the moment:

Snow Patrol wrote: They have not been asked because they don't want it, where's the mass street protests demanding it, where's the mass independence/SNP rally's, where's the support for it in the polls? where's the demands for a referendum? why is there declining support for those parties favouring independence over devolution?
Again, your reading comprehension seems to be lacking.

Can we agree that a referendum should be in the agenda in the next 1 to 2 years now that devolution has been given a chance?

I truly believe that the Scottish people would be well served to know for sure if they are ready for independence now or not.

You know and I know that how the SNP does in the polls doesn't mean that a referendum should be on or not, a lot of people voting Labour, Lib Dem, Conservative would like a referendum but won't vote SNP and shouldn't have to vote SNP to get it. Most competent Scottish politicians are not from the SNP because they are passionate about politics and want to make a difference today, they would do a great job for Scotland tomorrow.

:-D
:-D

thundertaker · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:49 am Post subject:

thefranzkafkafront wrote: What would austrilians say to becoming part of a federal republic with Britian and other former empire states?

The realities of economics stand in the way. It's a nice idea in theory, unforutnately, our economic interests are different. Australia's trade links are mainly with Asia, and ours are with Europe.
However, I would certainly be in favour of introducing common citizenship within the commonwealth, especially if the continental Europeans have complete and unfettered access to the UK thanks to the EU.
Commonwealth citizens already have almost all the rights of British Citizens in the UK. They can vote, join the army, the civil service, stand for political office etc. They do however, need a visa to stay in the country, and all I would propose would be to remove the need for a visa.

As for lucky luke dreaming of an independent scotland within his lifetime, forget it. The scots enjoy too many subsidies courtesy of the English Taxpayer, and unless the UK government is doing something catestrophically wrong or oppressive, people are far more inclined to go with the devil they know.
I won't repeat what I have already stated about the monarchy being an 'english' monarchy, because as I already illustrated, they are more scottish than english anyway......

Achilles The Myrmidon · Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 4415 Location: Hellas

A.As a commonwealth citizen i want the viza to saty

B.The Scots dont need the English.They have oil in Scotland.Plus FREEDOM cannot be bought.I am in favor of a free Scotland ,Ireland and Wales...

thundertaker · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:27 am Post subject:

Achilles The Myrmidon wrote: A.As a commonwealth citizen i want the viza to saty

As a Cypriot, you are a commonwealth AND and EU citizen. A Cypriot in Britain would therefore almost be a defacto British citizen if he came to Britain. You would only be a semi-foreigner in Britain, along with the Irish....

Quote: B.The Scots dont need the English.They have oil in Scotland.Plus FREEDOM cannot be bought.I am in favor of a free Scotland ,Ireland and Wales...

Polls indicate that most Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish want to remain British. British citizens already have freedom (notwithstanding the regular onslaughts against our civil liberties by this scots-dominated New Labour government)......