Political Crossfire Forums

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23739

Joshua 20

1 Then the LORD spoke to Joshua, saying,

2 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'Designate the cities of refuge, of which I spoke to you through Moses,

3 that the manslayer who kills any person unintentionally, without premeditation, may flee there, and they shall become your refuge from the avenger of blood.

4 'He shall flee to one of these cities, and shall stand at the entrance of the gate of the city and state his case in the hearing of the elders of that city; and they shall take him into the city to them and give him a place, so that he may dwell among them.

5 'Now if the avenger of blood pursues him, then they shall not deliver the manslayer into his hand, because he struck his neighbor without premeditation and did not hate him beforehand.

6 'He shall dwell in that city until he stands before the congregation for judgment, until the death of the one who is high priest in those days. Then the manslayer shall return to his own city and to his own house, to the city from which he fled.'"

7 So they set apart Kedesh in Galilee in the hill country of Naphtali and Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim, and Kiriath-arba (that is, Hebron) in the hill country of Judah.

8 Beyond the Jordan east of Jericho, they designated Bezer in the wilderness on the plain from the tribe of Reuben, and Ramoth in Gilead from the tribe of Gad, and Golan in Bashan from the tribe of Manasseh.

9 These were the appointed cities for all the sons of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them, that whoever kills any person unintentionally may flee there, and not die by the hand of the avenger of blood until he stands before the congregation.

Who is the "avenger of blood" and how does this apply to Judaism?

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3411 Location: Haifa

John wrote: Who is the "avenger of blood" and how does this apply to Judaism?
In many tribal societies, up until this day, if a member of your family / clan is killed, this act is often avenged by killing the killer, without waiting for a trial or any other conviction. Haven't you seen The Godfather? :)

I believe the objective of this section is to try and avoid that problem.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

PaRDeS.

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3411 Location: Haifa

cap'n queasy wrote: PaRDeS.
:!?:

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

You're a Kohen. You should know this mnemonic

J/k :-D

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2590

The Goel HaDam, or avenger of blood was someone who was entitled to kill someone who accidentally killed his relative. (If it was done on purpose then the court would kill the murderer) There were 6 cities of refuge that allowed a person who killed accidentally to run to as a safe haven. The person could not leave the town until the High Priest who was alive when the killing took place died, then he was again safe.

The chief purpose of this, from what I can ascertain, is to force the accidental murderer into exile as a punishment.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23739

Mailech wrote: The Goel HaDam, or avenger of blood was someone who was entitled to kill someone who accidentally killed his relative. (If it was done on purpose then the court would kill the murderer) There were 6 cities of refuge that allowed a person who killed accidentally to run to as a safe haven. The person could not leave the town until the High Priest who was alive when the killing took place died, then he was again safe.

The chief purpose of this, from what I can ascertain, is to force the accidental murderer into exile as a punishment.

So what's the deal with the High Priest dying?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2590

John wrote: Mailech wrote: The Goel HaDam, or avenger of blood was someone who was entitled to kill someone who accidentally killed his relative. (If it was done on purpose then the court would kill the murderer) There were 6 cities of refuge that allowed a person who killed accidentally to run to as a safe haven. The person could not leave the town until the High Priest who was alive when the killing took place died, then he was again safe.

The chief purpose of this, from what I can ascertain, is to force the accidental murderer into exile as a punishment.

So what's the deal with the High Priest dying?

If the high priest did his job properly, there should be no accidental deaths. But there must have been some lacking in his service and so the freedom of the killer is dependent on the death of the high priest.

It is interesting, I heard somewhere that the mother of the high priest prepares food for the accidental murderer, so that he won't pray for her son to die.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23739

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: The Goel HaDam, or avenger of blood was someone who was entitled to kill someone who accidentally killed his relative. (If it was done on purpose then the court would kill the murderer) There were 6 cities of refuge that allowed a person who killed accidentally to run to as a safe haven. The person could not leave the town until the High Priest who was alive when the killing took place died, then he was again safe.

The chief purpose of this, from what I can ascertain, is to force the accidental murderer into exile as a punishment.

So what's the deal with the High Priest dying?

If the high priest did his job properly, there should be no accidental deaths. But there must have been some lacking in his service and so the freedom of the killer is dependent on the death of the high priest.

It is interesting, I heard somewhere that the mother of the high priest prepares food for the accidental murderer, so that he won't pray for her son to die.

I don't quite follow the logic there...could you explain that a little futher?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2590

John wrote: I don't quite follow the logic there...could you explain that a little futher?

The High Priest prays for the community in his prayers and in his sacrifices. Further it was the responsibility of the priests to be the teachers of Torah to the people.

G-d promises that if we keep His Law then there will be no ill among the Israelites (psholtz). Plentiful crop, no miscarriages, and also I would assume in there no accidental murders.

If the High Priest then does his job that will not happen. If the High Priest does not do his job and then you have this person exiled in the city of refuge, that person will pray for the HP's death so that he can go free. If the HP doesn't want people praying that he should die, he would be better off doing his job properly. When the HP does die, I guess we assume that the next one will bring better circumstances and this won't happen in the future.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23739

Mailech wrote: John wrote: I don't quite follow the logic there...could you explain that a little futher?

The High Priest prays for the community in his prayers and in his sacrifices. Further it was the responsibility of the priests to be the teachers of Torah to the people.

G-d promises that if we keep His Law then there will be no ill among the Israelites (psholtz). Plentiful crop, no miscarriages, and also I would assume in there no accidental murders.

If the High Priest then does his job that will not happen. If the High Priest does not do his job and then you have this person exiled in the city of refuge, that person will pray for the HP's death so that he can go free. If the HP doesn't want people praying that he should die, he would be better off doing his job properly. When the HP does die, I guess we assume that the next one will bring better circumstances and this won't happen in the future.

So basically you're saying that the fulfillment of the Law depends wholly on the perfection of the "High Priest".

Interesting.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2590

John wrote: So basically you're saying that the fulfillment of the Law depends wholly on the perfection of the "High Priest".

Interesting.

Actually I did not say anything that even remotely comes close to that.

But that you anyway for putting words in my mouth.

I said if the priests are not teaching as they should, then the people will not be able to fulfill the Law. I also said that if the HP does not to his job right then the repentance my not be accepted as fully.

It does not depend wholly on the HP, he is a part of it. Like if I had really bad teachers in college, I probably wouldn't be a very good engineer, unless I took it upon myself to learn on the job, read on my own time etc, in which case I can still be a fine engineer. So if I get fired from my job can I blame my professors? (No I will blame political crossfire for taking up so much of my time :lol: )

What remains is that the as a leader of the community he has a big responsibility to the community. But you can't place all the blame on his shoulders, that is stupid.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23739

Mailech wrote: John wrote: So basically you're saying that the fulfillment of the Law depends wholly on the perfection of the "High Priest".

Interesting.

Actually I did not say anything that even remotely comes close to that.

But that you anyway for putting words in my mouth.

I said if the priests are not teaching as they should, then the people will not be able to fulfill the Law. I also said that if the HP does not to his job right then the repentance my not be accepted as fully.

It does not depend wholly on the HP, he is a part of it. Like if I had really bad teachers in college, I probably wouldn't be a very good engineer, unless I took it upon myself to learn on the job, read on my own time etc, in which case I can still be a fine engineer. So if I get fired from my job can I blame my professors? (No I will blame political crossfire for taking up so much of my time :lol: )

What remains is that the as a leader of the community he has a big responsibility to the community. But you can't place all the blame on his shoulders, that is stupid.

Well, then what you're saying makes no sense.

Why is the pardon of the guy depend on the death of the High Priest?

If the guy leave the city of refuge....the avenger of blood is actually reqiured to kill the guy. There's something more going on here.

What is it?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mailech wrote: G-d promises that if we keep His Law then there will be no ill among the Israelites (psholtz).
I agree, keeping the Law is always a good idea, although the Law has *nothing* to do w/ the Israelites specifically (any more or less than it has to do w/ any other human being, or group of human beings, on planet Earth) and it has nothing to do w/ what you call the "Law of Moses".. :wink:

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2590

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: So basically you're saying that the fulfillment of the Law depends wholly on the perfection of the "High Priest".

Interesting.

Actually I did not say anything that even remotely comes close to that.

But that you anyway for putting words in my mouth.

I said if the priests are not teaching as they should, then the people will not be able to fulfill the Law. I also said that if the HP does not to his job right then the repentance my not be accepted as fully.

It does not depend wholly on the HP, he is a part of it. Like if I had really bad teachers in college, I probably wouldn't be a very good engineer, unless I took it upon myself to learn on the job, read on my own time etc, in which case I can still be a fine engineer. So if I get fired from my job can I blame my professors? (No I will blame political crossfire for taking up so much of my time :lol: )

What remains is that the as a leader of the community he has a big responsibility to the community. But you can't place all the blame on his shoulders, that is stupid.

Well, then what you're saying makes no sense.

Why is the pardon of the guy depend on the death of the High Priest?

If the guy leave the city of refuge....the avenger of blood is actually reqiured to kill the guy. There's something more going on here.

What is it?

The avenger of blood is not required to do anything, he may if he chooses.

Second, the HP as a leader in the community just like the king has very important responsibilities as a role model, teacher and one who prays for the community, even more so than the king. So while it all does not rest on his shoulders, he still carries a very heavy weight.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2590

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: G-d promises that if we keep His Law then there will be no ill among the Israelites (psholtz).
I agree, keeping the Law is always a good idea, although the Law has *nothing* to do w/ the Israelites specifically (any more or less than it has to do w/ any other human being, or group of human beings, on planet Earth) and it has nothing to do w/ what you call the "Law of Moses".. :wink:

Duly noted again, and once again completely irrelivent to the discussion and based soley on your own ideas. But thanks again for repeating yourself we appreciate it.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23739

Quote: The avenger of blood is not required to do anything, he may if he chooses.

Second, the HP as a leader in the community just like the king has very important responsibilities as a role model, teacher and one who prays for the community, even more so than the king. So while it all does not rest on his shoulders, he still carries a very heavy weight.

What wieght? Dying of old age?

What about someone who had only been in the city of refuge for a month and the High Priest dies...compared to the guy who had been there 40 years?

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2590

John wrote: Quote: The avenger of blood is not required to do anything, he may if he chooses.

Second, the HP as a leader in the community just like the king has very important responsibilities as a role model, teacher and one who prays for the community, even more so than the king. So while it all does not rest on his shoulders, he still carries a very heavy weight.

What wieght? Dying of old age?

What about someone who had only been in the city of refuge for a month and the High Priest dies...compared to the guy who had been there 40 years?

By weight I mean the responsibilty of office. :bnghd:

As to the other one, well that is for G-d to deal with. He determines the duration for each and why.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23739

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: The avenger of blood is not required to do anything, he may if he chooses.

Second, the HP as a leader in the community just like the king has very important responsibilities as a role model, teacher and one who prays for the community, even more so than the king. So while it all does not rest on his shoulders, he still carries a very heavy weight.

What wieght? Dying of old age?

What about someone who had only been in the city of refuge for a month and the High Priest dies...compared to the guy who had been there 40 years?

By weight I mean the responsibilty of office. :bnghd:

As to the other one, well that is for G-d to deal with. He determines the duration for each and why.

So you admit that you don't know why..and it doesn't seem to make any logical sense. Right? The death of the High Priest seems to just be thrown in there without rhyme or reason.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2590

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: The avenger of blood is not required to do anything, he may if he chooses.

Second, the HP as a leader in the community just like the king has very important responsibilities as a role model, teacher and one who prays for the community, even more so than the king. So while it all does not rest on his shoulders, he still carries a very heavy weight.

What wieght? Dying of old age?

What about someone who had only been in the city of refuge for a month and the High Priest dies...compared to the guy who had been there 40 years?

By weight I mean the responsibilty of office. :bnghd:

As to the other one, well that is for G-d to deal with. He determines the duration for each and why.

So you admit that you don't know why..and it doesn't seem to make any logical sense. Right? The death of the High Priest seems to just be thrown in there without rhyme or reason.

NO NO NO and NO, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH JOHN!!!!!!!

First of all I don't know all the reasons and ideas behind any of the commandments, no one does but G-d.

Second I explained to you a reason why the priest is thrown into the mix. There is definately a rhyme and reason.

What I did say was how long the HP lives and how long a person is in exile for is for G-d to worry about, not me.