Political Crossfire Forums

[JS]

Moath wrote: Of course women being mistreated is a part of the sharia, among other things, seeing as that is how women were treated during that time period. Likewise, christianity in its original form certainly wasn't advocating feminism in any shape or form- far from it.

Actually, Tingeling, women being mistreated is not part of Sharia Law. It's just that many Muslim men mistreat their wives. However, these men are not following the Sharia, which actually has laws that protect women, not harm them as you might think. :?

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), women were actually looked upon differently. They were more segregated from society than they were before Islam became the prevalent religion in Arabia. Females borne were actually, most of the time, buried alive by their fathers. You can even ask Glorfindel and pharaoh. They probably know more about this stuff than I do. Women are given status in Islamic society. Just that some governments don't doesn't mean that Islam doesn't.

Have you ever considered that too much 'protection' is actually harm?

JS

[Saracen]

Have you ever considered that too much 'protection' is actually harm?

Did you read what I just said?

However, these men are not following the Sharia, which actually has laws that protect women, not harm them as you might think.

Sharia does not protect women to the extent that you speak of. This is on part of the man who is doing the harm, not the law itself.

Please, educate yourself. Islam protects women and puts them in a high social status. They're not exploited as cheap sex toys for men as they are in many parts of the Western world. Go to http://www.islam-guide.com/ to learn more about the status of Women in Islam.

[pharaoh]

Nice site Moath :wink:

[Saracen]

Thanks :wink:

I have the book, actually. I got it as a free gift when I ordered some Popeye's Chicken and Biscuits for delivery. :-D :lol:

[pharaoh]

Quote: I have the book, actually. I got it as a free gift when I ordered some Popeye's Chicken and Biscuits for delivery

Interesting! They thought that by giving away free religious gifts with their products they may sell something! Wow are they that desperate? :lol:

Its a pretty good site, I checked it out about 2 years ago and I keep posting it when it may prove helpful to someone.

[Saracen]

And keep posting from it, my friend. It's a good ISLAMIC source. :tu:

[JS]

Moath wrote: Have you ever considered that too much 'protection' is actually harm?

Did you read what I just said?

However, these men are not following the Sharia, which actually has laws that protect women, not harm them as you might think.

Sharia does not protect women to the extent that you speak of. This is on part of the man who is doing the harm, not the law itself.

Please, educate yourself. Islam protects women and puts them in a high social status. They're not exploited as cheap sex toys for men as they are in many parts of the Western world. Go to http://www.islam-guide.com/ to learn more about the status of Women in Islam.

lol, did YOU read what I just asked? What exactly am I to educate myself on? I simply asked if any of you had ever considered if too much protection could actually be considered harm? I made no judgements, I simply asked a direct question.

JS

[Saracen]

It's a very vague question to begin with. I suggest you open a thread in the Philosophy forum. The guys there will be happy to answer this. Of course, they'll have different views. I chose not to answer this question here because it will go...

:ot:

But I can tell you that what the men are doing is in no way protection.

[JS]

Moath wrote: It's a very vague question to begin with. I suggest you open a thread in the Philosophy forum. The guys there will be happy to answer this. Of course, they'll have different views. I chose not to answer this question here because it will go...

:ot:

But I can tell you that what the men are doing is in no way protection.

I see, fair enough I suppose, it is a question designed to promote logical thought and of course it is germaine to this discussion in the extreme. The claim has been made that these various rules and laws from several cultures are designed to 'protect' women. If we establish a baseline agreement that too much protection can be harmful, then we have a starting point of agreement at which to diverge and determine the level of protection that each side deems appropriate and therefore can gauge how far apart we are on the subject vice throwing baseless claims against each others ideological walls to smash like so many melons.

JS

[Saracen]

Well, that's just it. Too much protection isn't protection. It's harm.

[Alghazali]

Am new to this forum thing. I have read what have been said about islam and its associations to jihad/violence and holy wars. We live in a time where islamic terror is a subject of the media, and as muslim i find a duty to address the common misconception about the history of islam.

Muhammad's religious career is often divided into two periods: the Meccan Period which lasted for thirteen years, from the start of his revelations to his emigration to Medina; and the Medinan period, which lasted the remaining ten years of his life.

The Meccan Period is characterized by the more elliptical and otherworldly portions of the Qur'an, and by the story of the rejected and persecuted prophet. Had the assassination plot against him in 621 succeeded, his religious career would have been similar in broad outline to that of Jesus.

However, Muhammad escaped the trap set for him and went to live in the oasis of Medina. There he evolved from the charismatic head of a small group to the political and spiritual director of a large community. For the first time he had to wrestle with the challenges of creating a new society. The Qur'an continued to be revealed to him, but the focus of the message broadened now from the purely spiritual to include the more temporal issues of community building, lawmaking, and social institutions. Muhammad also came under formal military attack for the first time in Medina. Consequently, the Qur'an and Muhammad's teaching also focused on delineating the concept of the just war. Formal permission to fight is first applied in the Medinan Period:
"They will question you concerning the holy month, and fighting in it. Say: 'Fighting in it is a heinous thing, but to bar people from God's way, to disbelieve in Him and the Holy Mosque and to expel its people from it - that is more heinous in God's sight; and persecution is more heinous than fighting." (Qur'an 2:217)
Through most of the Medina period, the Muslim community was in mortal danger and surviving in a defensive mode. Between 624 and 627 especially, the Muslim community was often quite literally fighting for its life. It is no accident that the concepts of jihad and martyrdom were developed at this time.

Though the Qur'an takes on more temporal issues in the Medinan Period, it does not abandon the notions of spiritual striving and God consciousness that were hallmarks of the Meccan Period. Even the concept of defensive warfare is placed within the larger concept of jihad as striving for what is right. Though jihad might involve bloodshed, it has the broader meaning of exerting an effort for improvement, not only in the political or military realm, but also in the moral, spiritual, and intellectual realms. Muhammad is often cited in Islamic tradition for calling the militant aspect of jihad the "minor" or "little" jihad, while referring to the improvement of one's self as the "greater" jihad.

Other revelations and rulings during this period concerned the proper treatment of prisoners of war and non-combatants, the sanction against killing innocent civilians, and the respectful treatment of enemy corpses (in contrast to the custom of the time, which was mutilation.) The wanton destruction of property or agricultural resources was put off limits too. Even words of consolation for prisoners of war are found in the Qur'an:
"Prophet, tell the captives you have taken: 'If God finds some good in your hearts, He will reward you with something better than was taken away from you, and forgive your sins, for God is forgiving and kind." (Qur'an 8:70)
Various Muslim traditions define the time and place when the concept of martyrdom first appeared. One tells the story of a young man who becomes a Muslim and is killed the next morning in a skirmish. The young man's distraught wife comes to Muhammad, asking what will be the fate of her husband's soul, as he never prayed or performed even one act of worship. Muhammad answered that dying in defense of faith is the sign of ultimate submission to God. A person dying this way would be considered a martyr and go to heaven. At the same time, the Prophet warned against those who claim to be fighting for the sake of righteousness, but in fact are fighting for selfish or unjust reasons. Such a person will not be rewarded. Those who die in certain other ways, including women who die in childbirth and people who die in natural catastrophes including burning buildings, are considered martyrs too.

With many of the billion-plus Muslims living in poverty or oppression, Islam has become a rallying point for independence movements worldwide. Since jihad and martyrdom were placed within a religious context during the Medinan period, some of these independence movements have deployed the same concepts as sanctified tools for motivating combatants in the face of overwhelming odds. Thus, some seek a military solution to their political aspirations.

At the far end of the spectrum lies a fairly recent tendency to justify acts of terror with quotations from the traditions of Islam. This exercise in legal sleight of hand, placed beyond the pale by all except the terrorists themselves, has bred enormous doubt throughout the world about the essentially peaceful nature of Islam.

Especially since the tragic events of September 11, most religious scholars around the world have rejected these interpretations as spurious. Rather, they have re-emphasized the Prophet's saying that "the true jihad is only that which exalts God's word, which is truth." The Qur'an condemns as an ultimate act of blasphemy actions that attempt to dismantle the very fabric of existence by destroying and spreading ruin on the Earth. Elsewhere it states that God has willed Muslims "to be a community of moderation." (Qur'an 2:143)

[pharaoh]

Good post and welcome to the forums! :-D

[Saracen]

Indeed. Excellent post! :-D

[Live-E.V.I.L.]

Lucky Luke wrote: ...This is why they are proposing for the Muslim world to define its own future not to let others imposing it like you were told to participate in a charade to satisfy the needs of an American President to look good.
:-D
:-D

oh yes, blame Amreica when all else fails, everyone else does. we should just change our national anthem to the "Imperial March" from the Star Wars movies... :roll:

[Lucky Luke]

Live-E.V.I.L. wrote:

oh yes, blame Amreica when all else fails, everyone else does. we should just change our national anthem to the "Imperial March" from the Star Wars movies... :roll:

I blame the Socialist Bliar first, his master the Neocon Bush second.

:-D
:-D

[SaladFingers]

Muslima wrote: good job paroah.....

yeah.....i could say the same as you said about any other religion but i didn't and won't...you know why? because muslims respect other religions and they are obliged to tolerate them.....and muslims are taught to control their anger....that's why i am not going to argue since the beginning and because arguments need proofs........

by the way, from which site or book did you get this shocking article?

LOLOLOLOLOL :lol:

WOW So Im guessing right off the bat you aren't a scholar of the Quran, k here we go.

"Slay the Muslims wherever you find them. Seize them, surround them and everywhere lie in ambush for them. But if they repent from their wrong beliefs and become humans, then spare their lives." (9:5)

We also agree that this fake verse is offensive to Muslims and encourages non-Muslims to kill them. Here's the real ayat in Quran 9:5:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free." (9:5)

http://apostatesofislam.com/alternate_main.htm

With further reading go ahead and get yourself educatorz more on Islam and how it all really works.

Some good reading on Mohammed:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728&TOCID=2083225348

This great prophet married a 6 year old girl, and consummated the marriage when she was 9.

My niece is 9 years old, and this whole thing disgusts me.

Islam teaches people to control their anger?

Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Yea, islam is non-violant alright..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3667349.stm read this news story of a woman who was beaten outrageously by her husband over a piddly arguement, but then Im sure since the pro-islamic people on this forum will say that the man was in his right?

Also go ahead and watch this movie clips of how pieceful (hehe!) islam is in its forgiveness of theft:
http://apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

as well as how they handle any kind of sexual crime or accident, such as the 13 year old girl stoned to death in Iran when she became pregnant from her 15 yo brother, which at that age range they were more then likely "curious" and made a totally honest mistake that even I would forgive, but to stone them!?!?!?!?

http://apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

And after that video, go ahead and read some more about how cruel and tiranical Muhammed was.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/stoning.htm

But then I doubt any of you will have bothered to investigate this far, because you wont be able to stomach what Islam does.

[pharaoh]

Quote: "Slay the Muslims wherever you find them. Seize them, surround them and everywhere lie in ambush for them. But if they repent from their wrong beliefs and become humans, then spare their lives." (9:5)

We also agree that this fake verse is offensive to Muslims and encourages non-Muslims to kill them. Here's the real ayat in Quran 9:5:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free." (9:5)



Man you should calm yourself a bit...take it easy...
You think you know everything and you are acting very arrogantly and without any kind of respect to my faith.
Before I start educating you on Islam, I advise you to stop taking your information from anti Islam sites. why? Because they dont tell you the context of a certain text or whether it talks about a certain situation or in general.
Okay?

[Ostia Di Ellysium]

It goes to show that a religion is what you see in it....If you want to see beautiful, you will see beautiful and you will look for those things that appeal to you...if you want to see ugly or things to justify what you want to believe, you will also see those things.

There may be only one Quran, but it is notable the many interpretations, twisted or no, viable or no, justified or no...the same as the bible....upon which the Quran is partially based.

Muhammad was a man. That is something that many miss...just like Jesus was a man...like Abraham...they all had human failings, feelings, moments of indecision, moments of heartache, moments of joy and recognition that mistakes were made and different paths must be taken...and many of these things were not written down due to the views of their patrons...and it is an absolute human presumption that God and his angels were feeding the prophets everything. The prophets were human and if they were subject to that, they would be burned-out shells....for every word and thought would not be their own. With this understanding, the bible can't be perfect, nor can the Quran be....Both were written after the deaths of the individuals involved...and not by them...through the sometimes rose-tinted glasses of their survivors...and they are interpreted by humans, naturally imperfect...so, in effect, there may be one book, but not one Quran or bible...

These books and every religion is what we make of them...that is the bottom line...and the religion becomes the mirror of the heart of those who believe. Therefore, the beauty and ugliness of a religion is more the reflection of the believer and not necessarily the religion itself...So when we say there is a problem with the religion, we should be saying we have problems with the believer....and there are sooo many different kinds of believer...

Also, it is also presumptuous to assume that all the wisdom and knowledge God, or Allah, whatever you want to call IT (older holy documents state that the embodiment of God used to be an It, a combination of both male and female aspects -frankly speaking, gender to God is useless and its only in the human realm where it finds its base - Oh, you humans are so silly!), could be mashed between two covers in books written by the hand of man...man's life is too short, his views too limited, his reality too limited...Humans are developing creatures...a reflection of God...and like all images, capture only part of what actually is...we reflect God in our ability to think, to reason, to create and destroy...but like reflections, it is up to us to fill out the rest of the picture

[Robin Hood]

Quote: It goes to show that a religion is what you see in it....If you want to see beautiful, you will see beautiful and you will look for those things that appeal to you...if you want to see ugly or things to justify what you want to believe, you will also see those things.

Why the seperation between religion and other sets of ideas?

[Ostia Di Ellysium]

[quote="Robin Hood"] Quote: Why the seperation between religion and other sets of ideas?

Cuz we are talking about religion :wink:
Wasn't making a separation but applying a concept that does apply to other sets of ideas as well