Political Crossfire Forums

[Glorfindel]

ok... since you havent been quiet specific on you problem with Islam... I'm gonna have to focus on the most obvious issue... women and equality in Islam

let's see how equal women are in the united states....

a woman in the united states earns about 68 cents to every dollar a white man earns.

thats doesnt seem very fair to me

a woman still gets her husband's family name after she gets married... neglecting her own family name and her own family history...

thats is not very fair either

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year1 to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year

how is that for an advanced nation who treats women with respect

ever seen a victoria's secret comercial? how many times have seen men walking and prancing around in their underwear?

tell me that is not a type of abuse when a woman has to walk around naked to live...

how about the strip clubs ? where women are subjected to be sexual object for men to earn some money...

is that the kind of freedom you want to spread around?

the only thing you have freed women of is their clothes...

who are you kidding ... talking about feminism? just turn on the tv set and see hadree's or burger king's comercial

an hour in front of the tv will shock you back to reality

maybe half an hour if you watch E!

when a muslim confused woman takes off her viel ... the western world glorifies her and you seee her on every channel... the poor abused woman...

but when a senator in the turkish congress enters the congress wearing her viel... the reaction is jeers and boos from other senators..and declaring a motion to expell her from the congress

thats the kind of justice and freedom you people want....

[Lucky Luke]

Glorfindel wrote: ok... since you havent been quiet specific on you problem with Islam... I'm gonna have to focus on the most obvious issue... women and equality in Islam

let's see how equal women are in the united states....

a woman in the united states earns about 68 cents to every dollar a white man earns.

thats doesnt seem very fair to me

a woman still gets her husband's family name after she gets married... neglecting her own family name and her own family history...

thats is not very fair either

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year1 to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year

how is that for an advanced nation who treats women with respect

ever seen a victoria's secret comercial? how many times have seen men walking and prancing around in their underwear?

tell me that is not a type of abuse when a woman has to walk around naked to live...

how about the strip clubs ? where women are subjected to be sexual object for men to earn some money...

is that the kind of freedom you want to spread around?

the only thing you have freed women of is their clothes...

who are you kidding ... talking about feminism? just turn on the tv set and see hadree's or burger king's comercial

an hour in front of the tv will shock you back to reality

maybe half an hour if you watch E!

when a muslim confused woman takes off her viel ... the western world glorifies her and you seee her on every channel... the poor abused woman...

but when a senator in the turkish congress enters the congress wearing her viel... the reaction is jeers and boos from other senators..and declaring a motion to expell her from the congress

thats the kind of justice and freedom you people want....

I must clarify that this thread should have been titled The Ugly Truth About Saudi Arabia.

The major problem in our world is not Islam or any other religion but regimes like Saudi Arabia that we are actively supporting.

Bush is very clear on what kind of justice and freedom he wants the world to have when he is sending US coalition forces to invade secular Iraq from the kingdom of Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia.

In Iran women are driving cars and protest in the streets for their rights, in Iraq women are teachers, judges and architects, in Saudi Arabia they are locked at home made to watch American TV.
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[Glorfindel]

man ..you really dont know what or whom to attack? you are just a wild one arent you? loool

first of all ..lemme give you the news from Saudi arabia.... two women have been elected in the commercial industrial council in Jeddah in Saudi Arabia.. i have their names two if you want...

women are not locked in Saudi arabia... as you so ignorantly claim... but they work , teach , cure diseases and paticipate in aspect of the life of All Saudis

it is what you see that misled you into believing that women have no rights in Saudi Arabia and are chained to heavy chains in dark dungeons... you didnt get that from The O'Reilly Factor now ....did you?

my cousin is a doctor... and another cousin is a teacher... and all female members in my family have gone to college..or about to.... unlike you

please make sure your information are true before you say anything about Saudi Arabia in front of a Saudi member like me...

maybe you should look for another forum where nobody can prove you wrong to spread your hate and stupidity

P.S: I'm a man...

[Lucky Luke]

Glorfindel wrote: man ..you really dont know what or whom to attack? you are just a wild one arent you? loool

first of all ..lemme give you the news from Saudi arabia.... two women have been elected in the commercial industrial council in Jeddah in Saudi Arabia.. i have their names two if you want...

women are not locked in Saudi arabia... as you so ignorantly claim... but they work , teach , cure diseases and paticipate in aspect of the life of All Saudis

it is what you see that misled you into believing that women have no rights in Saudi Arabia and are chained to heavy chains in dark dungeons... you didnt get that from The O'Reilly Factor now ....did you?

my cousin is a doctor... and another cousin is a teacher... and all female members in my family have gone to college..or about to.... unlike you

please make sure your information are true before you say anything about Saudi Arabia in front of a Saudi member like me...

maybe you should look for another forum where nobody can prove you wrong to spread your hate and stupidity

P.S: I'm a man...

How do all these hard working women drive to work my friend?

Me too without any education I can get elected to the local PTA but that doesn't prove anything about democracy in Scotland.

What about your cousins do they carry their written permission with them at all times Glorfindel?

Quote: Women’s Rights
Women in the kingdom suffer from severe discrimination and restrictions in their freedom. The Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, or the “religious police,” enforces strict gender segregation and obliges women and girls to wear long black cloaks and head coverings in public. Although some women hold professional jobs at hospitals, schools, banks, offices, and elsewhere, they still need written permission from a male relative to travel.

When women are mistreated or suffer violence at the hands of male relatives, they often have no means for redress. Rania al-Baz, a presenter on state-run Channel One television, raised the issue of domestic violence in an unprecedentedly public way in April 2004 when she gave press interviews from her hospital bed and released photos of her badly bruised face after her husband had savagely beaten her. Her case galvanized public opinion and stimulated considerable debate about the problem of spousal abuse.
hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/saudia9810.htm

There is a bright future for Muslim women but in Saudi Arabia women could wait another 9 years to be allowed to vote in a national election, their sisters in Iran and Iraq are showing them the way.



This is for the poster who opened this thread to read:
Quote: First International Congress on Islamic Feminism
Catalan Islamic Board has organized the First International Congress on Islamic Feminism, Barcelona, 27th, 28th and 29th October 2005 at which the work of various associations in the field of women's rights in the Islamic World will be presented.

There are those that take for granted that Islam oppresses women and that this cannot be changed. From this perspective, westernization is the only way to achieve the Islamic woman's liberation. Opposing this interpretation which attacks their traditions, is a women's movement claiming the possibility of achieving liberation within the framework of Islam. This movement considers that a degradation of the legal tradition of Islam and a distortion of the Sacred Texts have taken place, resulting in the current patriarchal structure and sexist laws of many of the Islamic countries. Moreover, this movement affirms that the true Islam contains important elements of liberation and calls for the recovery of those elements as a framework for the emancipation of Muslim women.

And this is for you Glorfindel to read:
Quote: Muslim women denounce sexist interpretations of holy texts

During the Congress, a woman led Islamic prayers in public to a mixed audience

On the afternoon of the 29th, the Chairwoman of the Catalan Women's Association (Institut de la Dona), Marta Selva, and the Chairman of the Unesco Centre of Catalonia, Enric Masllorens, closed proceedings of the first International Congress on Islamic Feminism, which for three days assembled over 400 delegates.

Junta Islàmica Catalana organised this meeting with the intention of internationally disseminating the emergent movement of Muslim women for human rights, known as the "gender jihad". Another priority of the Congress was to initiate a collaboration between Muslim women and the global feminist movement.

During the course of the meeting, it became clear that Islamic feminism is a reality in many countries with a majority Muslim population. The Congress heard from women fighting for their rights and working in very difficult conditions against the implementation, in the name of Islam, of highly sexist and discriminatory family codes of behaviour.

Discussions were held on diversity and feminism, Koranic hermeneutics, Islamism and feminism, and other topics. There was also an exploration of the situation of Muslim women in South East Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa.

There was a particularly moving moment when Amina Wadud, lecturer in Islamic Studies at the Commonwealth University of Virginia (USA), gave the Friday khutba (sermon) and led the mixed male/female audience in prayer. ...........

www.feminismeislamic.org/eng/index.htm
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PS: of course you are a man you are posting from Saudi Arabia on the net!

[Glorfindel]

lucky luke
they don't even have to frive to work... they've got chauffeurs ....

yeah women are not allowed to drive... but that's for reasons a non-muslim would not understand...a non muslim who doesnt know the structure of the Saudi society and how many dangers are being avoided by not letting women drive...

set aside the religious reasons.. that you might not even agree with...

you dont have to own a car and drive to be a working member of your community...

but that is all the probelm with you people... women driving...they are still going to work and adapting their lives according the teachings of their religion and in the same time being a good member of the society

and if you are interested in why it would not be good for women to drive in Saudi Arabia... check my other replies and you will find an very satisfactory answer to it

and what hell are you talking about? each one of those women who have been elected have graduated from university...

written permission... looooooooooool.... no they dont...

nobody does man.... women don't have to carry written permissions... where did you see that?

that is a very misleading article my friend... believe me... I know

and about elections... listen man... men have voted for the first time in their lives in Saudi Arabia last year...and women will be able to vote as soon as they get seprate IDs ..beucase you see... now women in Saudi Arabia don't carry ID.. let alone their passports... but now women are getting their own ID and soon enough they will be able to vote...women voting is not an issue of discussion... it is only an issue of time

and by they way... what did it take for women in the Us and britain to be able to vote? i dont think they were granted that right instantly after men were... and didnt a woman throw herself in a race track in protest to that inequality...

yeah i know your history ...you may not though

Thank God no woman had to kill herself to earn her given right

and about that woman who led muslims in their prayer... the only thing wrong with that is religion-wise... a man should lead muslims in their prayers... not a woman... not because a woman is less of a man of something... it is just what our religion commands us...

they , by the way, prayed in a church. look how far you people would go just to make problems out of nothing when it comes to Islam.

but again... you people have to make a big thing out of it...

when was the Vatican established? why no woman was allowed to reach the chair of papacy?

PS: I'm a man and i'm posting from the United States .... just so you know..lol

[Lucky Luke]

Glorfindel wrote: lucky luke
they don't even have to frive to work... they've got chauffeurs ....

yeah women are not allowed to drive... but that's for reasons a non-muslim would not understand...a non muslim who doesnt know the structure of the Saudi society and how many dangers are being avoided by not letting women drive...

set aside the religious reasons.. that you might not even agree with...

you dont have to own a car and drive to be a working member of your community...

but that is all the probelm with you people... women driving...they are still going to work and adapting their lives according the teachings of their religion and in the same time being a good member of the society

and if you are interested in why it would not be good for women to drive in Saudi Arabia... check my other replies and you will find an very satisfactory answer to it

and what hell are you talking about? each one of those women who have been elected have graduated from university...

written permission... looooooooooool.... no they dont...

nobody does man.... women don't have to carry written permissions... where did you see that?

that is a very misleading article my friend... believe me... I know

and about elections... listen man... men have voted for the first time in their lives in Saudi Arabia last year...and women will be able to vote as soon as they get seprate IDs ..beucase you see... now women in Saudi Arabia don't carry ID.. let alone their passports... but now women are getting their own ID and soon enough they will be able to vote...women voting is not an issue of discussion... it is only an issue of time

and by they way... what did it take for women in the Us and britain to be able to vote? i dont think they were granted that right instantly after men were... and didnt a woman throw herself in a race track in protest to that inequality...

yeah i know your history ...you may not though

Thank God no woman had to kill herself to earn her given right

and about that woman who led muslims in their prayer... the only thing wrong with that is religion-wise... a man should lead muslims in their prayers... not a woman... not because a woman is less of a man of something... it is just what our religion commands us...

they , by the way, prayed in a church. look how far you people would go just to make problems out of nothing when it comes to Islam.

but again... you people have to make a big thing out of it...

when was the Vatican established? why no woman was allowed to reach the chair of papacy?

PS: I'm a man and i'm posting from the United States .... just so you know..lol

Look Glorfindel my point is that Saudi Arabia is the worst example of east meet west and women living in Saudi Arabia have a very different lives than their sisters had in Iraq before the invasion or in Iran today.

They are not allowed to drive, have a seperate ID or to vote in a national election. These are facts that make Saudi Arabia a very rich country very open to the world but a society that finds very difficult to close the gap with Muslim neighbouring countries regarding human rights in general and women rights in particular.

Quote: Islamic feminism is an emergent reality which must be seen as an alternative to the dominant sexist readings.
.This form of feminism derives from the Koranic revelation and is based on the conviction that the Koran does not justify patriarchalism.
.Islam can liberate women and change their current status. But for this, the doors of ijtihad (interpretation work) must be opened, taking into account the context of 21st century societies.
.Help to change laws that discriminate against women.
.Not confuse the laws drawn up by men with the broader concept of Sharia.
.Men must be involved in women's struggle to achieve equal rights.
.Seek support within communities to fight any form of discrimination.
.Boost the participation of women in decision-making bodies.
.Vindicate the right to own property, to individual freedom and economic independence on the basis of Islamic tradition.
.Demand access to the mosque as a Muslim women's right.
.From the context of western countries, vindicate a status of full citizenship for immigrant Muslim women. Family immigration laws must be altered.
The global feminist movement must t.........
http://www.feminismeislamic.org/eng/index.htm

It is time that men like yourself understand that the emancipation of Muslim women is a must. You know what happened in the west, there are no reasons to wait for women to kill themselves to get the right to drive or to vote. Again examples of Muslim women enjoying better rights are to be seen all over the world, Saudi Arabia has no excuse to change its laws and to change them now and not in 9 years.

I suggest you think about participating to the second International Congress on Islamic Feminism in order to better understand Muslim women's plea.

Here two other quotes regarding a written permission to travel for women in Saudi Arabia, are you contesting those too?
Quote: .....Women in the kingdom are forced to cover from head to toe in public, and cannot travel without a written permission from their male guardian.....
http://www.wluml.org/english/newsfulltxt.shtml?cmd[157]=x-157-230396
Quote: ......They must follow strict dress code, they are not allowed to drive and they need written permission from a male relative if they want to travel......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/891544.stm

written permission... not so funny.... yes they do...

This is not a local problem or even a Muslim only problem, example of the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia are slowing down the process of equality between men and women all around the world because as you rightly pointed out women in the west are not there yet. I'll go further by denouncing western societies attitude to women rights thinking that changing the law is enough when it is proven every day that in reality the lives of women is getting worst in some aspect and not better in others. The answer of chauvinist men in the west is go to Saudi Arabia to see if life is better for women there.

The problem you have with people like me is not your biggest problem Glorfindel, I am not Muslim and I am a man. The problem you have is with Muslim women who are telling you that the degradation of the legal tradition of Islam and a distortion of the Sacred Texts have taken place, resulting in the current patriarchal structure and sexist laws of many of the Islamic countries. Those are their own words listen Glorfindel and don't blame the west for the reaction of Muslim women today just like they are telling the west that Islam is not the problem, Muslim men like you are.
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[pharaoh]

I must say that I fully agree with Lucky luke.
Even I, a muslim, am disgusted of women's rights in Saudi Arabia. It is just so wrong and gives the wrong image about Islam and unfortunately that is coming from the birth place of Islam. What a shame.

There are few things that Glorfinder said that I want to comment on:

Quote: yeah women are not allowed to drive... but that's for reasons a non-muslim would not understand

Im a muslim and I dont understand.

Quote: set aside the religious reasons.. that you might not even agree with...


Islam gave women their long forgotten rights. Its a shame that you think that Islam say women cant drive a car or ride a camel to travel etc... :-|

Quote: and about elections... listen man... men have voted for the first time in their lives in Saudi Arabia last year...and women will be able to vote as soon as they get seprate IDs ..beucase you see... now women in Saudi Arabia don't carry ID.. let alone their passports... but now women are getting their own ID and soon enough they will be able to vote...women voting is not an issue of discussion... it is only an issue of time


What are you talking about? Women lack alot and you say all gonna be good in time? If this so called progress and modernisation of the Saudi society continue in this pace women may have all their rights by the year 2100. Who will take the blame? Who is the responsible of mistreating women in Saudi Arabia? It seems that you dont acknowledge that there is something wrong and that whoever responsible must be judged.

Quote: and by they way... what did it take for women in the Us and britain to be able to vote? i dont think they were granted that right instantly after men were... and didnt a woman throw herself in a race track in protest to that inequality...


Should women in Saudi arabia start killing themselves to protest the inequality in their society?![/quote]

[Glorfindel]

lucky luke

first of all.. lemme say this... you must stop comapring Saudi Arabia to Iran and Iraq... and espceially with Iraq... I would rather be oppressed to death before I let someone else fight my own battles for my rights...

when time comes for Saudi to reach the level of a democratic nation... i will gladly be one with the notion... but bringing ameircans or others to get me my rights... thats totally unacceptable

now... even though I asked you to read my earlier response about woemn and driving in Saudi arabia... but i will save you the trouble and wirte it all over again

listen man... Saudi society has not yet reached the level of a developed civilized societies... we still have alot of basic things to do.... believe man.. general election in Saudi Arabia would not work if it was possible...

and I already said women are allowed to have sperate ID... the porblem is..they never needed ones that are used by a Saudi citizen to vote... the door is open now for women to get individual IDs but believe it or not... there are very few women who are even interested enough to apply for them...

the problem is in women's disinterest in having seprate Ids and their ignorance of the importance of voting... even though the whole election charade that happened last years was just to shut the west up... but I would still vote... because it is a matter of principles

they can't drive not because it is prohibited in Islam for women to drive... heck... women have been riding camels and horses like men before ...

the main cause why women nshould not drive right now is a social problem ... as i said before ... the Saudi society is in general a very ignorant society...women would be harrassed in a way you would not believe... and that is something that is not tolerated like here in the west...

it is in women's advantage not to drive in these times...

and about that written permission... well it doesnt have to be written and only if the woman is traveling... and it is commaned in Islam ...it is just that a woman is married has to have the permission of her husband if she plans to travel ..and that doesnt make a woman less than a man...

and by the way... literal equality is not fair... men and women are different ... biologically and psychologically...and to be fair... their differences must be taken into consideration

and about the degradation and distrotion of holy verses... I cant respond to that becuase I dont really know of what you are talking about... I mean give me a case or example of a verse that has been distorted to deprive women of their rights...

and not every woman who claims to be a muslim is right just because she spoke in a conference... I mean you might have well intentions about the situation and want the best for all mankind... but others might not.. especially those who would rather create their own intrepretations of the holy verses just to fit with their desires...that also would not be fair

I know some scholars might be prejudiced against women and.. i know some fo those ..but there are others who seek the FAIR type of equality for men and women..and trying to neglect the opinions of those and even neglecting them is a sign enough for me that these kinds of meetings have goals beyond achieving equality for muslim women

I want women to be able to drive as long as there are no harm in it... but there is... maybe in a few years there won't be.. but until now... I would rather drive my family wherever they want instead of them being harrassed in the streets

PS: I detect that you might think that i'm against giving women their rights... but what i'm really against is the mean of achieving that goal... and I would rather want the process of achieving equality to take 20 years instead of the west meddling in the affairs of muslims and forcing muslims to use your own design of equality... which might seem to many people.. like me... unfair and unequal... but you dont see me trying to change your society...

[Glorfindel]

Pharoah

salam

alright i'm sorry.. i should have said non-saudi persons might not understand...

listen brother... I'm ashamed to say this.. but I have to.. to make you understand why women should not drive in these times...

if you have even been in Saudi Arabia you would know what kind of harrassment women face in the streets ... such ignorance and animal-like behaviors...

I'm not against women drive as an idea.. it is just would bring more harm than benefit ...

as you said.. women used to ride camels and horses but that was in a time where everyone knew his rights and duties.. when a man would never bother or harrass a woman in the street not because of his fear of punishment.. but because his honor would not allow him to do such things... i'm sorry to say that time has passed... now you have men who acts more like dogs and dont have the slightest amount of politness or integrity to act honorably in front of others...

it is a social problem.. Saudi society is not ready for this... trust me

hey.. there are alot of problems... not only for women... but for men as well... but it is best for the stability of the whole country for it to run this way...

you think I like the rule of monarchy? no i dont.. but it is best for Saudis for the time being... you know what saudi society consists of.. it consists of mostly nomads... beduins ..half of them dont even read... and most of them dont even have IDs... if you hold a presidential election now... then ever tribe will choose one of its own to rule... then they wouldnt agree on one guy...who is supposed to be the best for the country... but they will fight each other...like they used to do a century ago...

I think Saudi should reach a certain level of education to be ready to rule themselves and for women to drive without being harrassed and bothered...

thatrs why I'm sayin it is a matter of time...

please what other probelms do Saudi women have? can you be a little specific so I can reply to your comments?

and the answer for your last question... of course not.. and I hope it would not get to that... I hope they have more patience that that brithish woman who killed herself...

[Lucky Luke]

Glorfindel wrote: lucky luke

first of all.. lemme say this... you must stop comapring Saudi ... which might seem to many people.. like me... unfair and unequal... but you dont see me trying to change your society...

Your list of excuses for stopping women getting the same rights than men is the same used a century ago in the west to keep western women serving Christian men at home, in fact the same excuses were made to keep slaves in chains before hand. Ignorant is the man that think women should have less rights than men, education doesn't make man less ignorant when man uses it to attempt to prove an ignorant point. Books like the Bible and the Quran have been used too often to keep mankind in a state of ignorance.

If I cannot compare Saudi Arabia with two of its Muslim neighbours Iran and Iraq, what society can be compared with the Saudi one and why Glorfindel? I remind you that the Iraqis people are not welcoming the foreign fighters from America, Britain, Syria or Saudi Arabia however across the Saudi border a US puppet regime has been oppressing to death its population armed and trained by the US for decades. Furthermore have you already forgotten that the US led coalition forces have launched their attack on a Muslim country from the country ran by a US puppet regime? Your rights are in the hands of the Bush family mate, it is unacceptable and yet you aren't complaining about it.

The will of men to commit violence and abuse towards women is no different in so called developed civilised societies than in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else in the world. Your idea that women should be protected from men is pretending that victims should be punished and their freedom taken away from them when criminals are free to roam the streets. Women can protect themselves as well as men can in any society.

Another extremely chauvinist statement that women do not want equal rights than men, listen Glorfindel I don't know what you are afraid of but if the problem is that women won't drive, vote or want an ID card what is the problem not to give them the right to do all these things? We will see who is right but be prepared for a chock. Western women tell their partners that they are away to town to have a look but not to buy anything and yes some men still believe that! Believe what you want of what women will do or won't do but let them choose for themselves they aren't your slaves Glorfindel, you are not their master.

General election in Saudi Arabia will work as well as general elections all over the world, not very well but it is the fairest system in town. You are right that the last municipal election was a charade that Bush needed you to participate to in order to justify the unjustifiable. Nevertheless I respect your decision to vote but you won't convince anyone that women should have not voted as well, after all how educated do you need to be to participate to a stupid irrelevant poll? You did by principle let women participate for the same reasons. By the way there are no laws in the world that dictate that only educated people should have the right to vote Glorfindel unless you consider non educated people to be somehow lesser people than yourself, do you?

What about that written permission Glorfindel? First you told me it did not exist now you are not so sure. Islam is not my concern, religions will tell followers to do all kind of crazy things but the law of Saudi Arabia is, what is the Saudi law regarding women travelling Glorfindel?

You are very mistaken I would not dare to talk about the degradation and distortion of holy verses, I am no scholar but Muslim women have been challenging men's version of the holy verses why do you refuse to listen to what they have to say? Their claim to be Muslim is as valid as yours Glorfindel, what will you tell us next that only men are allowed to be Muslim? Men created their own interpretations of the holy books just to fit their own desires for centuries, do you think you will be less of a Muslim or less of a man if women get the same rights than yours? Are you scared that women will take over and will make you pay for centuries of inequalities? What goals could these women who meet can have, to enslave men or to kill them all?

Biologically men and women are different but how does that equate that men should have more and better rights that women? I suggest to you that women are better built than men to survive in any society they are biologically more resistant and there is one thing they can do that we can't. In fact women would have more reasons that men to declare that their rights should be extended beyond the rights of any man, the survival of the human race would be the first one.

PS: your PS is contradicting your post, if women can have equal rights to men one day why trying to prove post after post that they can't? If it is only timing you are on about let them take the risk to decide when and anyway women afraid to drive, to vote or to ask for an ID will not be forced to.

The powerful men in the west have been meddling with the Middle East for generations and believe me they have no intentions to defend the rights of Muslim women or men for that matter. If you dare to listen to what Muslim women are saying you would understand that they are rejecting the western approach, they are the ones warning Muslim men that the western influence and globalization are changing the Middle East societies for the worst and not the better. This is why they are proposing for the Muslim world to define its own future not to let others imposing it like you were told to participate in a charade to satisfy the needs of an American President to look good.
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[Muslima]

lucky lucke

i can't tell you why women aren't allowed to drive in KSA, even though i am not from there....anyway.....nowadays women in the gulf are in real danger when driving alone because they often get ridiculous and bad behavioring boys chasing them around, which is not a good image for the reoutation of the girl.......the problem is that whatever the girl goes through.....the balme goes to her even if she didn't cause the problem.....i am sorry to say that but it is the truth.......especailly if the car goes off or she makes an accident.....many boys will annoy her and excuses just to get her number or something, which is not an appropirate thing in a muslim society........

i hope my answer was enough, paroah and the saudi guy, you can argue or adds stuff its up to you

[Lucky Luke]

Muslima wrote: lucky lucke

i can't tell you why women aren't allowed to drive in KSA, even though i am not from there....anyway.....nowadays women in the gulf are in real danger when driving alone because they often get ridiculous and bad behavioring boys chasing them around, which is not a good image for the reoutation of the girl.......the problem is that whatever the girl goes through.....the balme goes to her even if she didn't cause the problem.....i am sorry to say that but it is the truth.......especailly if the car goes off or she makes an accident.....many boys will annoy her and excuses just to get her number or something, which is not an appropirate thing in a muslim society........

i hope my answer was enough, paroah and the saudi guy, you can argue or adds stuff its up to you

This is the idea that the Saudi guy came up with but what happens in other countries Muslim or not when men harass women driving cars or anywhere else?


I already responded to that sad state of affairs in Saudi Arabia:
Quote: Your idea that women should be protected from men is pretending that victims should be punished and their freedom taken away from them when criminals are free to roam the streets. Women can protect themselves as well as men can in any society.

Not only women can protect themselves but a society that give the same rights to men and women makes sure that harassment, assault and rape are dealt with whatever gender is the victim or the accused.

What next? Would you suggest all disable people, children, weak men, non violent men and whoever believes that they should be protected from assault be made to stay at home and travel only under guard? Why not declaring a martial law if it is that dangerous, we wouldn't want men to get assaulted would we?

Of course the problem is not with the Saudi women driving, the problem like you pointed out is with the Saudi men.
:-D
:-D

[pharaoh]

Salam brother. While we disagree on this issue, I hope you dont take it personally, I have the outmost respect for you.

Quote: if you have even been in Saudi Arabia you would know what kind of harassment women face in the streets ... such ignorance and animal-like behaviors...

I'm not against women drive as an idea.. it is just would bring more harm than benefit ...

as you said.. women used to ride camels and horses but that was in a time where everyone knew his rights and duties.. when a man would never bother or harrass a woman in the street not because of his fear of punishment.. but because his honor would not allow him to do such things... i'm sorry to say that time has passed... now you have men who acts more like dogs and dont have the slightest amount of politness or integrity to act honorably in front of others...


Glorfindel, instead of blaming and punishing the men who harass women in the street, you are putting more pressure on women, who are the victim btw, by putting more restraints on their freedom. Honestly I feel bad for every women that live in Saudi Arabia, what if I were in her position? that what I say to myself, I cant travel when I want and where I want. I read all the time that the husbands abuse their wives and the wives dont have much power to ask for divorce. Really, if a women is married to an abusive husband, her situation can probably never improve. That is very sad really.
And when you say that most Saudis harass women in the streets, that is just plain amazing, considering that they are taught from birth strict and in my opinion, the most radical teachings of Islam, like not to shake hands with women...extra... and after all that...they harass women in the streets!
The problem is very enormous that I dont have the time now to tackle it fully.

Quote: you think I like the rule of monarchy? no i dont.. but it is best for Saudis for the time being

That is, in my opinion, horribly wrong. What did prophet Muhammed do? Was he a dictator? Was he a king? Ofcourse not. What you are saying is strictly against our religion. The monarchy in Saudi Arabia is destroying the country, literally. Doesnt the monarchy take about 30% of Saudi Arabia profit from oil revenues? That is a disaster. Think about what you are saying...

[Saracen]

Salam to my brothers in Islam and peace to all who visit this forum.

I have lived in Saudi Arabia for almost my entire life, and I can tell you that I have seen much. Pharoah, you made a small error in saying that the "Saudis" are harrassing women despite the strict dogma they were taught from childhood. Many "Muslims" have been taught such strict doctrines; only as individuals can they choose to abide by them or not. The general trend that you speak of is a sad thing, because it is somewhat true.

But, I've seen Palestinian, Kuwaiti, Jordanian and all sorts of Arab (even Egyptian, but I don't offend you by saying this) "Muslims" who are worse than that: they go all out when they have access to all sorts of stuff that might incline them to fornicate: women in front of them to harass, a drink at a bar to chug down, or even some pork on a plate to munch on. Women are scared s!@#less from going outside because of rowdy teenagers going around causing all sorts of trouble. A similar case exists in Kuwait, where I was born. I have been there last summer, and I was equally shocked from what I saw. This rowdiness and tendency to harass stems from (sadly) both the bad side of the general Arab mindset, and the Western (and very recently, ARAB) entertainment media's influence on the minds of young teenagers.

My point is, women are caught up in the middle because of two extrema:
the strict teachings of some Islamic sects concerning treatment of women, and the inclination of the male mind to intend malicious acts upon women when they are around. It's disgusting both ways. I'm sure that you both agree.

Islam gave women equal rights as men. My philosophy: As Muslims, respect them. Don't chase them around. Don't follow them around wherever they go. Treat them like your sisters, because they are. Shaking hands is not a necessity, as I have learned. Don't stray in conversation with them. Avoid unnecessary contact and language.
When you are ready to treat them otherwise, get married.

Yes, it is a sad thing that women are not given equal rights in Saudi Arabia. Yes, it's due to the government, not Islam, that they have been "treated" unfairly.

[Lucky Luke]

Moath wrote: Salam to my brothers in Islam and peace to all who visit this forum.

I have lived in Saudi Arabia for almost my entire life, and I can tell you that I have seen much. Pharoah, you made a small error in saying that the "Saudis" are harrassing women despite the strict dogma they were taught from childhood. Many "Muslims" have been taught such strict doctrines; only as individuals can they choose to abide by them or not. The general trend that you speak of is a sad thing, because it is somewhat true.

But, I've seen Palestinian, Kuwaiti, Jordanian and all sorts of Arab (even Egyptian, but I don't offend you by saying this) "Muslims" who are worse than that: they go all out when they have access to all sorts of stuff that might incline them to fornicate: women in front of them to harass, a drink at a bar to chug down, or even some pork on a plate to munch on. Women are scared s!@#less from going outside because of rowdy teenagers going around causing all sorts of trouble. A similar case exists in Kuwait, where I was born. I have been there last summer, and I was equally shocked from what I saw. This rowdiness and tendency to harass stems from (sadly) both the bad side of the general Arab mindset, and the Western (and very recently, ARAB) entertainment media's influence on the minds of young teenagers.

My point is, women are caught up in the middle because of two extrema:
the strict teachings of some Islamic sects concerning treatment of women, and the inclination of the male mind to intend malicious acts upon women when they are around. It's disgusting both ways. I'm sure that you both agree.

Islam gave women equal rights as men. My philosophy: As Muslims, respect them. Don't chase them around. Don't follow them around wherever they go. Treat them like your sisters, because they are. Shaking hands is not a necessity, as I have learned. Don't stray in conversation with them. Avoid unnecessary contact and language.
When you are ready to treat them otherwise, get married.

Yes, it is a sad thing that women are not given equal rights in Saudi Arabia. Yes, it's due to the government, not Islam, that they have been "treated" unfairly.

This is where we must all agree this is not Islam fault but the government of Saudi Arabia, the title of this thread should read The Ugly Truth About The Regime Of Saudi Arabia.

Like in the west sometimes ago the problems are the men not the women and the law should stop the men doing what they do to let women live as freely as men do.

As you rightly said the customs of a certain culture and the doctrine of any religion should not be enforced by the state but should be a matter of choice for every citizen of this state whatever the gender.

There are a lot of problems across the world due to the globalization of the media but let's embrace this progress and not stop our societies natural evolution in order to be able to live together side by side whatever the gender, the culture or the religion.

I strongly believe that our cultural and religious beliefs could become stronger as a result and not weaker as some are suggesting, I very much agree with these brave Muslim ladies who are rejecting the too common view that the west will destroy the Muslim world, already we are seeing that Islam is getting stronger in the western world.
:-D
:-D

[Saracen]

Lucky Luke, I could not agree with you more. :)

But as we embrace globalization, we can not let it destroy the parts of us that can not be removed: our origins, our culture and our beliefs. Of course, this depends on how you say it.

Cheers, and Salam :)

[Psycho Sid]

Freydis:

"A Muslim would have to reject her religion to be a feminist. "

That's true. Feminism goes against Islam. Heck, even many Westerners are against feminism, incluing religious parties and conservatives.

"Women will not be liberated as long as Islam persists as a major world religion, brainwashing people. "

You have to know that Islam is not equal to Western culture at all. Whereas the West turned women into nothing but cheap sex toys, Islam is protecting women and their dignity by covering them up and protecting them quite seriously. There's not at all any comparison as to who values the woman more.

And the essay you read has some glaring mistakes, not the least of them the claim abotu Muhammad's alleted dialogues with Jews and Christians.

See, if you want to know about Islam, you can't read non-Islamic stuff like that (which always has the suspcious of being biased). You have to read Islamic sources and make your mind up. If I wanted to learn more about YOU, would I ask your enemy?

[Saracen]

Psycho Sid wrote: Freydis:

"A Muslim would have to reject her religion to be a feminist. "

That's true. Feminism goes against Islam. Heck, even many Westerners are against feminism, incluing religious parties and conservatives.

"Women will not be liberated as long as Islam persists as a major world religion, brainwashing people. "

You have to know that Islam is not equal to Western culture at all. Whereas the West turned women into nothing but cheap sex toys, Islam is protecting women and their dignity by covering them up and protecting them quite seriously. There's not at all any comparison as to who values the woman more.

And the essay you read has some glaring mistakes, not the least of them the claim abotu Muhammad's alleted dialogues with Jews and Christians.

See, if you want to know about Islam, you can't read non-Islamic stuff like that (which always has the suspcious of being biased). You have to read Islamic sources and make your mind up. If I wanted to learn more about YOU, would I ask your enemy? Exactly :-D

[JS]

Tingeling wrote: There is one salient point regarding feminism that you are missing.

Like so many other religions, the writings important to Islam reflect the society in which they were conceived, and the age in which they were conceived. Thus, the practical commandments meant to dictate morality and how one is meant to live one's every day life (most of the suras deal with this) are ones that were appropriate for the period.

Of course women being mistreated is a part of the sharia, among other things, seeing as that is how women were treated during that time period. Likewise, christianity in its original form certainly wasn't advocating feminism in any shape or form- far from it.

Unless you're willing to apply your rage against the machine across the board, your argument fails.

Finally, some truth in all this propoganda. Well said Tingeling.

JS

[Saracen]

Of course women being mistreated is a part of the sharia, among other things, seeing as that is how women were treated during that time period. Likewise, christianity in its original form certainly wasn't advocating feminism in any shape or form- far from it.

Actually, Tingeling, women being mistreated is not part of Sharia Law. It's just that many Muslim men mistreat their wives. However, these men are not following the Sharia, which actually has laws that protect women, not harm them as you might think. :?

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), women were actually looked upon differently. They were more segregated from society than they were before Islam became the prevalent religion in Arabia. Females borne were actually, most of the time, buried alive by their fathers. You can even ask Glorfindel and pharaoh. They probably know more about this stuff than I do. Women are given status in Islamic society. Just that some governments don't doesn't mean that Islam doesn't.

Finally, some truth in all this propoganda. Well said Tingeling.

Not really, JS. The real propaganda here is Freydis bashing Islam with so much bullsh!t that her argument literally smells like it.

Although Tingeling has knowledge about Islam, Tingeling still does not know much about Islam from a Muslim point of view.