Political Crossfire Forums

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: They reminded me of this passge in the Bible.

Quote: 2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=2co+11:14&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en
Something we should all think about.
This is probably the single most important quote in the entire Bible, but I suspect you're probably interpreting it completely incorrectly. You would do well to buy yourself a Bible that doesn't murder the translation of this all-important verse as badly as the NASB does. In the original text, Satan does not "disguise" himself as an Angel of Light, he "transforms" himself into an Angel of Light.

Enormous, enormous difference.

As you can see from the Greek Concordance, the verb used to modify "Satan" in this verse is μετασχηματίζω, or "metaschimatizo", which can only be translated as "transformed", not as "disguised":



To say that Satan "disguises" himself as an angel of light is to corrupt this verse almost completely..

[pharaoh]

Quote: now i am not at home to give the hadiths, so wait...i will give them to you at night, just wait and see!


Im terrified already :cry:

Quote: you are the one who started, so don't tell ME about solidarity!


Cant I correct your info if I think you are wrong? :roll:

Quote: and please don't call me missy because it is annoying.

Any other requests?

[Muslima]

psholtz.....

i don't know much about the western philosophies, so you might be right.

[Muslima]

Quote: Gimme a hadith about the aleged war between Jinn and angels.

i learned this from a cassette i heard by "Dr. Tarik Al-Swaidan", if you know him.

Quote: A hadith about love between humans and Jinn
]www.khayma.com/roqia/page32.htm


Quote: A hadith about the yawning
و-آداب التثاؤب :-فآدابه تتمثل في الآتي : -
1/ رد التثاؤب ما استطاع : لما روي البخاري عن أبي هريرة (رضي الله عنه) عن النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم أنه قال ( إذا تثاءب أحدكم فليكظم ما استطاع )
2/ وضع اليد على الفم إذا ملكه التثاؤب : لما رواه أبو سعيد عن النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم قال: ( إذا تثاؤب أحدكم فليضع يده بفيه ، فان الشيطان يدخل فيه )
ج- كراهية رفع الصوت عند التثاؤب :
حيث يروى فيه أن الرسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم قال: (إن الله عز و جل يكره رفع الصوت عند التثاؤب و العطاس )

from islamtoday.net

Quote: A hadith about why muslims pray close to each other.

it is in riyadh alsalheen.

عن ابن عمر رضي الله عنهما، أن رسول الله صاى الله عليه و سلم قال:" أقيموا الصفوف، و حاذوا بين المناكب، و سدوا الخلل، و لينوا بأيدي إخوانكم، و لا تذروا فرجات الشيطان: و من وصل صفا وصله الله، و من قطع صفا قطعه الله"

و عن أنس رضي الله عنه أن رسول الله قال:" رصوا صفوفكم، و قاربوا بينها، و حاذوا بالأعناق، فوالذي نفسي بيده إني لأرى الشيطان يدخل من خلل الصف كأنها الحذف"



as i believe that i asked politely, so why are you being rude?

you can correct me, but i never say or write things that i am not sure of.

as long as i have proved myself right, i dont see that you should be terrified

[cap'n queasy]

metasxhmatizetai means literally "to disguise". To change the form of.

It does not indict any change of essential character. Merely a change in how something appears.

But your opinion, Paul, does not suprise me at all.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: metasxhmatizetai means literally "to disguise". To change the form of.

It does not indict any change of essential character. Merely a change in how something appears.

But your opinion, Paul, does not suprise me at all.
If you check out the Greek-English Online Dictionary:

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon/

You'll see that "transform" translates into μετασχηματίζω, or metaschimatizo, while "disguise" translates into μεταμφιέζομαι, or metamfiezomai.

The verse in 2 Cor 11:14 clearly uses metaschimatizo, or "transform"..

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: metasxhmatizetai means literally "to disguise". To change the form of.
Yes, to "change the form of", or in other words, "transform".. :lol:

"Transform" is not the same thing as "disguise".. Two very different concepts at work..

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: metasxhmatizetai means literally "to disguise". To change the form of.
Yes, to "change the form of", or in other words, "transform".. :lol:

"Transform" is not the same thing as "disguise".. Two very different concepts at work..

Yes, but then the verse would mean that Satan "transformed" himself into an angel of light.

I find that difficult to believe.

Things aren't always what they seem.

You're wrong.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: metasxhmatizetai means literally "to disguise". To change the form of.
Yes, to "change the form of", or in other words, "transform".. :lol:

"Transform" is not the same thing as "disguise".. Two very different concepts at work..

Yes, but then the verse would mean that Satan "transformed" himself into an angel of light.
Yes, that's *precisely* what the verse says, and that's precisely what the verse is *meant* to say.. :wink:

The nature of Satan is not *exactly* what you thought it was, is it?? :think:

Quote: I find that difficult to believe.
Yet you find it quite easy to believe that Moses parted the Red Sea or that Joshua commanded the Sun to stop moving. Remember, God does not care what is *easy* (or not) for you to believe, He cares about the Truth, and He cares about bringing you to the Truth.

It's unwise to "kick against the spurs" of God, as it were..

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: You're wrong.
I am wrong about a great many things..

However, here we are discussing facts. It's a fact that St. Paul used the word μετασχηματίζω, or metaschimatizo, or "transform" when describing Satan in 2 Cor 11:14. It's also a fact that the NASB murders this translated by changing "transform" into "disguise"..

How you choose to interpret these facts is up to you..

[cap'n queasy]

Good luck, Paul, you are going to need it.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Good luck, Paul, you are going to need it.
The famous last words of Mr. Pliable, as he was bidding farwell to Christian, in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.. :wink:

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: metasxhmatizetai means literally "to disguise". To change the form of.
Yes, to "change the form of", or in other words, "transform".. :lol:

"Transform" is not the same thing as "disguise".. Two very different concepts at work..

Yes, but then the verse would mean that Satan "transformed" himself into an angel of light.

I find that difficult to believe.

Things aren't always what they seem.

You're wrong.

All it means is that the demon can literally take the appearance of an "angel of light". That you won't be able to tell the difference without having a good understanding of the Gospel. As is the same wording used one verse in front of this to decribe "false apostles, deceitful workers".

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: All it means is that the demon can literally take the appearance of an "angel of light".

Apparently he does a pretty darn good job of it. :wink:

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Good luck, Paul, you are going to need it.
The famous last words of Mr. Pliable, as he was bidding farwell to Christian, in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.. :wink:

Ah, the favorite of George Bernard Shaw.

[psholtz]

John wrote: All it means is that the demon can literally take the appearance of an "angel of light".
No, that would be the meaning is the verb used was "disguised", since "to disguise" means to deceitfully take on the appearance of something that you are not.

"To transform" has an entirely different meaning altogether.

I'm not asking to you believe that this is possible (i.e., for Satan to "transform" himself into an Angel of Light), nor am I asking you to believe that there's any deep, mysitcal meaning behind this that St. Paul may have been alluding to (although it's possible that there *is* such a meaning). I am asking you, however, to admit that (a) the original Greek text uses the verb "transform"; and (b) the NASB translates this incorrectly.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Good luck, Paul, you are going to need it.
The famous last words of Mr. Pliable, as he was bidding farwell to Christian, in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.. :wink:

Ah, the favorite of George Bernard Shaw.
And it was a favorite of Abraham Lincoln (<- a good guy)..

And Adolf Hitler was a Catholic..

And Aleister Crowley went to Sunday School..

What's your point? Are you saying that John Bunyan was not a Christian? That he was a Satanist who "disguised" himself as an angel of light? :lol:

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: All it means is that the demon can literally take the appearance of an "angel of light".
No, that would be the meaning is the verb used was "disguised", since "to disguise" means to deceitfully take on the appearance of something that you are not.

"To transform" has an entirely different meaning altogether.

I'm not asking to you believe that this is possible (i.e., for Satan to "transform" himself into an Angel of Light), nor am I asking you to believe that there's any deep, mysitcal meaning behind this that St. Paul may have been alluding to (although it's possible that there *is* such a meaning). I am asking you, however, to admit that (a) the original Greek text uses the verb "transform"; and (b) the NASB translates this incorrectly.

One can "transform" into a disguise. Actually, one would need to for it to be very convincing.

The entire context of the chapter is about decievers and thier tactics.

Remember the Transformers? Robots in desguise? :lol:

[psholtz]

John wrote: One can "transform" into a disguise.
Of course, but that's not what the verse says, is it?

It doesn't say "Satan transforms into a disguise that makes you think he's an angel of light"

It doesn't say "Satan transforms into a disguise, period"

It says "Satan is transformed into an angel of light"

Interpret that however you will.. Just make sure you obey some pretty basic rules of logic and deduction as you proceed, thats' all..

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: One can "transform" into a disguise.
Of course, but that's not what the verse says, is it?

It doesn't say "Satan transforms into a disguise that makes you think he's an angel of light"

It doesn't say "Satan transforms into a disguise, period"

It says "Satan is transformed into an angel of light"

Interpret that however you will.. Just make sure you obey some pretty basic rules of logic and deduction as you proceed, thats' all..

Yes it does say that..read it in context. You're the king of interpreting a word or half a verse out of context.



2 Corinthians 11
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested among you in all things.
7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. 9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows!
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.


Ever met a Mormon? They're some of the best people you'll ever met. Just strait up GOOD people. But the sad part is that they have been decieved by "an angel of light" and have accepted a different "Jesus".