Political Crossfire Forums

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1634

well, i see them as two different things.

i would like to point out that if they were really the UFO's, so why appear now, not before a century for example?

from a muslim point of view, jinns are bad if they are not muslims, but UFO's are not known fully yet, so they can't be compared.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Muslima wrote: well, i see them as two different things.

i would like to point out that if they were really the UFO's, so why appear now, not before a century for example?

from a muslim point of view, jinns are bad if they are not muslims, but UFO's are not known fully yet, so they can't be compared.

People have been seeing them for centuries. Look at this medieval painting.

http://www.crystalinks.com/ufohistory.html

There are thousands of examples from the stone age until today. You can look at some on this website if you like.

I'm not saying I know what they are, but the similarities are remarkable, wouldn't you say?

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:03 am Post subject:

Quote: wrong again?!

i don't think i said anything wrong about the jinn.

-Satan was orginaly a jinn but then God favored him and made him an angel,though he was still made of fire.
-The bad jinns are still Jinns they are NOT devils (shayatin)!
-And I never heard about this quarren thing, what is your source? Do you have a hadith?
-And I stongely disagree about the love thing between humans and Jinns.Again do you have a source?
-Putting our hand on our mouth while yawning has NOTHING to do with preventing Jinn from entering our bodies. This is complete nonsense.
-Standing together in line has NOTHING to do with the Jinn. We stand together because muslims form 1 community,they should pray together as one.

Quote: and yes there was a war between the angels and jinns.
go look it up if you don't know it. IT IS EVERYWHERE!

Cool, then I guess it is very easy for you to find me a link or a hadith or a verse in the Quran. Beware though...it will take you a looooooooong time.

Quote: by the way i am from a place on earth that is the best in islam, and my country is one of the countries that are considered the most islamic countries but its not Saudia Arabia,

where are you from?

I am from this galaxy but not Mars. :roll:
Begad,inti masreya?

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:08 am Post subject:

You might find this link helpful Cap'n queasy:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996015532

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Putting our hand on our mouth while yawning has NOTHING to do with preventing Jinn from entering our bodies.

I read something to the effect that they generally enter one's body somewhere a bit different. :lol:

Djinn, the fairy folk, and UFO's etc. are all said to take delight in abducting people.

I don't think that is a coincidence. What do you think Pharoah?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

pharaoh wrote: You might find this link helpful Cap'n queasy:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996015532
Thank you, I can't wait to take a look.

:-D

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:16 am Post subject:

Quote: I read something to the effect that they generally enter one's body somewhere a bit different.

Err...from the nose...ears maybe? :lol:
(Nah seriously, I dont think its from the place you mean)

Quote: Djinn, the fairy folk, and UFO's etc. are all said to take delight in abducting people.

I don't think that is a coincidence. What do you think Pharoah?

Well first of all I dont believe in UFOs, they might be out there but I dont think so.
Yeah maybe some people somewhere call the Jinn demons,somewhere else they might call them ghosts,etc...
I dont have alot of info on the Jinn and that subject dont interest me but I dont believe that they have the ability to appear or possess humans that easily.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: we should avoid concerning ourselves with this part of Allah's creation more than is necessary and should instead focus on dealing with the many pressing social, moral and political problems we need to deal with.

That is probably good advice.

One question though.

Is Ibless (sorry for the bad spelling) the same being as Satan? If so, doesn't he have free will?

Did he lose it when he became an angel? Or did Allah do this on purpose for some reason?

Thanks again.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Well first of all I dont believe in UFOs

Yes, I would have to see one, but many people do see them. Millions, in fact.

I've read some Islamic scholars say they are Djinn. Is this the opinion of a small minority? Or is it untrue?

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:29 am Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: we should avoid concerning ourselves with this part of Allah's creation more than is necessary and should instead focus on dealing with the many pressing social, moral and political problems we need to deal with.

That is probably good advice.

One question though.

Is Ibless (sorry for the bad spelling) the same being as Satan? If so, doesn't he have free will?

Did he lose it when he became an angel? Or did Allah do this on purpose for some reason?

Thanks again.

Yes Ibless is Satan. Yes he has a free will. He practised it when he defied god and refused to bow to Adam. Apparently he didnt lose his free will when he became an angel, maybe because he was orgininaly a Jinn. He was still made of fire when he became an angel btw.Thats why he refused to bow to Adam,he was jealous because he knew he wont be the preferred creature to god no more,he thought he was superior to Adam because Adam is made of mude while he is made of fire.
Did Allah do this on purpose? I dont know,anyway god knew this will happen because god knows everything and he knows the future.So...
I will search for the verses in the Quran about the conversation between satan and god and I will post them as soon as I find them.

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:37 am Post subject:

Quote: Yes, I would have to see one, but many people do see them. Millions, in fact.

That is if you believe their word. Many people claim they saw UFOs just to draw (sp?) attention. Millions saw them? Then I think its VERY easy for us to have clear videos of those sightings but we do not have.
And why do people started talking about Aliens just after WW2? Yes they may have been already there in sci fi novels but I never heard about a person saying he saw a round "angel" or something like that in the medieval period for example.
Its all BS in my opinion....no real proof= BS.

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:56 am Post subject:

7:11 It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bow down.
7:12 (God) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
7:13 (God) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
7:14 He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
7:15 (God) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."
7:16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
7:17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
7:18 (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.
7:19 "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
7:20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
7:21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
7:22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
7:23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
7:24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."
7:25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
7:26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!
7:27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.
7:28 When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "God commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, God never commands what is shameful: do ye say of God what ye know not?"
7:29 Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight: such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."
7:30 Some He hath guided: Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the evil ones, in preference to God, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance.
7:31 O Children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: eat and drink: But waste not by excess, for God loveth not the wasters.
7:32 Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of God, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.
7:33 Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to God, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about God of which ye have no knowledge.
7:34 To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation).
7:35 O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you apostles from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.
7:36 But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance,- they are companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (for ever).
7:37 Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against God or rejects His Signs? For such, their portion appointed must reach them from the Book (of decrees): until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, they say: "Where are the things that ye used to invoke besides God?" They will reply, "They have left us in the lurch," And they will bear witness against themselves, that they had rejected God.
7:38 He will say: "Enter ye in the company of the peoples who passed away before you - men and jinns, - into the Fire." Every time a new people enters, it curses its sister-people (that went before), until they follow each other, all into the Fire. Saith the last about the first: "Our Lord! it is these that misled us: so give them a double penalty in the Fire." He will say: "Doubled for all" : but this ye do not understand.
7:39 Then the first will say to the last: "See then! No advantage have ye over us; so taste ye of the penalty for all that ye did !"
7:40 To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin.
7:41 For them there is Hell, as a couch (below) and folds and folds of covering above: such is Our requital of those who do wrong.
7:42 But those who believe and work righteousness,- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear,- they will be Companions of the Garden, therein to dwell (for ever).
7:43 And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury;- beneath them will be rivers flowing;- and they shall say: "Praise be to God, who hath guided us to this (felicity): never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of God: indeed it was the truth, that the apostles of our Lord brought unto us." And they shall hear the cry: "Behold! the garden before you! Ye have been made its inheritors, for your deeds (of righteousness)."
7:44 The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of God is on the wrong-doers;-
7:45 "Those who would hinder (men) from the path of God and would seek in it something crooked: they were those who denied the Hereafter."
7:46 Between them shall be a veil, and on the heights will be men who would know every one by his marks: they will call out to the Companions of the Garden, "peace on you": they will not have entered, but they will have an assurance (thereof).
7:47 When their eyes shall be turned towards the Companions of the Fire, they will say: "Our Lord! send us not to the company of the wrong-doers."
7:48 The men on the heights will call to certain men whom they will know from their marks, saying: "Of what profit to you were your hoards and your arrogant ways?
7:49 "Behold! are these not the men whom you swore that God with His Mercy would never bless? Enter ye the Garden: no fear shall be on you, nor shall ye grieve."
7:50 The Companions of the Fire will call to the Companions of the Garden: "Pour down to us water or anything that God doth provide for your sustenance." They will say: "Both these things hath God forbidden to those who rejected Him."
7:51 "Such as took their religion to be mere amusement and play, and were deceived by the life of the world." That day shall We forget them as they forgot the meeting of this day of theirs, and as they were wont to reject Our signs.
7:52 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
7:53 Do they just wait for the final fulfilment of the event? On the day the event is finally fulfilled, those who disregarded it before will say: "The apostles of our Lord did indeed bring true (tidings). Have we no intercessors now to intercede on our behalf? Or could we be sent back? then should we behave differently from our behaviour in the past." In fact they will have lost their souls, and the things they invented will leave them in the lurch.
7:54 Your Guardian-Lord is God, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
7:55 Call on your Lord with humility and in private: for God loveth not those who trespass beyond bounds.
7:56 Do no mischief on the earth, after it hath been set in order, but call on Him with fear and longing (in your hearts): for the Mercy of God is (always) near to those who do good.
7:57 It is He Who sendeth the winds like heralds of glad tidings, going before His mercy: when they have carried the heavy-laden clouds, We drive them to a land that is dead, make rain to descend thereon, and produce every kind of harvest therewith: thus shall We raise up the dead: perchance ye may remember.
7:58 From the land that is clean and good, by the will of its Cherisher, springs up produce, (rich) after its kind: but from the land that is bad, springs up nothing but that which is ****: thus do we explain the signs by various (symbols) to those who are grateful.

I got carried away a bit but I think its a very good and interesting read. It contains alot of info and God is talking to all of us here (children of adam) not just muslims.
P.S: You may notice that unlike in the bible, the Koran dont put the blame of the first sin on Eve alone. God sees that both wronged equally.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1634

i agree that the similarities are remarkable

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1634

paroah.... ana mush ma9riya!

and if u don't know anything about islam don't be a philsopher about about because allah said don't argue in things you don't know about!

then, iblees was an angelbut he refused to "yisjid" for adam allah made him a satain, OK?

then if you haven't read riyadh al9al7een or 9a7ee7 muslim w b5airy THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, AND ITS YOUR PROBLEM THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE QURAN AND HADITH PROPERLY IF YOU READ THEM!

to every member who can't read arabic i am sorry to type in arabic, but this argument requires me to!

المشكلة في أنك تتظاهر بالمعرفة و الثقافة و أنا أشك بأن لك خلفية كبيرة عن الدين الإسلامي فلا تجادل فيما ليس لك به علم و أنا لن أضيع وقتي معك!

cap n'queasy..if you have any more questions i would recommend asking muslims who are reliable!

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:58 am Post subject:

Muslima wrote: paroah.... ana mush ma9riya!

and if u don't know anything about islam don't be a philsopher about about because allah said don't argue in things you don't know about!

then, iblees was an angelbut he refused to "yisjid" for adam allah made him a satain, OK?

then if you haven't read riyadh al9al7een or 9a7ee7 muslim w b5airy THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, AND ITS YOUR PROBLEM THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE QURAN AND HADITH PROPERLY IF YOU READ THEM!

to every member who can't read arabic i am sorry to type in arabic, but this argument requires me to!

المشكلة في أنك تتظاهر بالمعرفة و الثقافة و أنا أشك بأن لك خلفية كبيرة عن الدين الإسلامي فلا تجادل فيما ليس لك به علم و أنا لن أضيع وقتي معك!

cap n'queasy..if you have any more questions i would recommend asking muslims who are reliable!

:rotf:
wow wait a second there missy...your knocking me out! :lol:
Where is the muslim solidarity?!
I do have Ryad el salihin...just tell me the hadiths that you took your info from and I will shut my mouth. :wink:
Gimme a hadith about the aleged war between Jinn and angels.
A hadith about love between humans and Jinn
A hadith about the yawning
A hadith about why muslims pray close to each other.
Plz prove to me that you are right...I might learn something you...we teksabi sawab feya.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: the Koran dont put the blame of the first sin on Eve alone.

The Bible doesn't put the blame on Eve. She was tricked, But Adam chose to follow this path.

Thanks for your posts, they are very interesting.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

They reminded me of this passge in the Bible.

Quote: 2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=2co+11:14&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en
Something we should all think about.

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:45 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: They reminded me of this passge in the Bible.

Quote: 2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=2co+11:14&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en
Something we should all think about.

Good advice.
Btw your sites name 'searchgodword' reminded me of this passage:

"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8 )"

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1634

now i am not at home to give the hadiths, so wait...i will give them to you at night, just wait and see!

you are the one who started, so don't tell ME about solidarity!

and please don't call me missy because it is annoying.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Muslima wrote: first aliens are not made of fire and people on earth have some kind of an image for aliens, whereas for djins we only know that they are made of fire, we don't know how do they look like.
I believe that "salamanders" are the correct analog in the Western philosophical tradition for the Islamic "djinns".. "salamanders" not in the sense of the creepy, crawly things on the ground, but in terms of divine "fire spirits"

Salamanders (djinns) make quite a few cameo appearances in the Bible, more especially in the Fire-Worshipping Hebrew Old Testament. I believe that one of them is even allegedly to have led the Hebrews through the wilderness for 40-some-odd years..