Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

What is the Jewish understanding behind needing to sacrifice an animal for the atonement (covering) of sin?

Why did God require the death of an animal?

[Duchifas]

John wrote: What is the Jewish understanding behind needing to sacrifice an animal for the atonement (covering) of sin?

Why did God require the death of an animal?

One of the more important, if not the most important, aspects is for the person to internalize that it should really be him that this should be done to.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: What is the Jewish understanding behind needing to sacrifice an animal for the atonement (covering) of sin?

Why did God require the death of an animal?

One of the more important, if not the most important, aspects is for the person to internalize that it should really be him that this should be done to.

Why?

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: What is the Jewish understanding behind needing to sacrifice an animal for the atonement (covering) of sin?

Why did God require the death of an animal?

One of the more important, if not the most important, aspects is for the person to internalize that it should really be him that this should be done to.

Why?

Why? There is a perpetual line of why's here. Why a lamb and not a chicken? Why two pigeons and not three? Why sacrifice? Why incense? Why a temple?

[John]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: What is the Jewish understanding behind needing to sacrifice an animal for the atonement (covering) of sin?

Why did God require the death of an animal?

One of the more important, if not the most important, aspects is for the person to internalize that it should really be him that this should be done to.

Why?

Why? There is a perpetual line of why's here. Why a lamb and not a chicken? Why two pigeons and not three? Why sacrifice? Why incense? Why a temple?

Of course. But the question is why should one internalize that it should really be him that this should be done to?

If it really should be the person who is killed; would is the purpose of having the animal killed?

[Duchifas]

Quote: Of course. But the question is why should one internalize that it should really be him that this should be done to?

To send the message to the person. A powerful one. Hopefully, one that would register. Can you think of a more powerful message than that it should be me? Maybe you can, and maybe I could, but I think we agree that it's quite a powerful message/idea.

Quote: If it really should be the person who is killed; would is the purpose of having the animal killed?

1) I guess so that Kohanim don't starve. Doh.

2) Hebrew word for sacrifice is korban. From same root as the word karov, which means close. I'm sure you can figure out the connection. It's all in the Hebrew man, gotta know it.

3) More on the mystal side - soul is made up of two components, the animal soul and the G-dly soul. Sacrifice symbolizes bringing your animal soul (physical desires, etc) to G-d. Judaism teaches to not destroy the animal soul (desires, pleasures, etc), but bring them close to G-d. Or put it in His service.

[Duchifas]

Forgot one:

Why were sacrifices commanded? A rabbinic debate

Medieval Jewish rationalists like Maimonides drew on the early critiques of the need for sacrifice, taking the view that God always held sacrifice inferior to prayer and philosophical meditation. However, God understood that the Israelites were used to the animal sacrifices that the surrounding pagan tribes used as the primary way to commune with their gods. As such, in Maimonides' view, it was only natural that Israelites would believe that sacrifice would be a necessary part of the relationship between God and man. Maimonides concludes that God's decision to allow sacrifices was a concession to human psychological limitations. It would have been too much to have expected the Israelites to leap from pagan worship to prayer and meditation in one step. In his Guide to the Perplexed he writes:

"But the custom which was in those days general among men, and the general mode of worship in which the Israelites were brought up consisted in sacrificing animals... It was in accordance with the wisdom and plan of God...that God did not command us to give up and to discontinue all these manners of service. For to obey such a commandment would have been contrary to the nature of man, who generally cleaves to that to which he is used; it would in those days have made the same impression as a prophet would make at present [the 12th Century ] if he called us to the service of God and told us in His name, that we should not pray to God nor fast, nor seek His help in time of trouble; that we should serve Him in thought, and not by any action." (Book III, Chapter 32. Translated by M. Friedlander, 1904, The Guide for the Perplexed, Dover Publications, 1956 edition.)

In contrast, many others such as Nachmanides (in his Torah commentary on Leviticus 1:9) disagreed. Nachmanides cites the fact that the Torah records the practices of animal and other sacrifices from the times of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and earlier. Indeed, the purpose of recounting the near sacrifice of Isaac, known in Judaism as "The Binding of Isaac" (Akeidat Yitzhak or the Akeidah) was to illustrate the sublime significance and need of animal sacrifices as supplanting the abomination of human sacrifices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban

[John]

Quote: 1) I guess so that Kohanim don't starve. Doh.

2) Hebrew word for sacrifice is korban. From same root as the word karov, which means close. I'm sure you can figure out the connection. It's all in the Hebrew man, gotta know it.

3) More on the mystal side - soul is made up of two components, the animal soul and the G-dly soul. Sacrifice symbolizes bringing your animal soul (physical desires, etc) to G-d. Judaism teaches to not destroy the animal soul (desires, pleasures, etc), but bring them close to G-d. Or put it in His service.


Interesting.

So the purpose of the sacrifice seems to be to bring the person close to God (a type of closing the gap between one and God).

And according to you there is a type of "animal" soul.

It almost seems like it represents the "killing" of the animal soul which is separating or in the way of the person's "G-dly" soul from God.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: Forgot one:

Why were sacrifices commanded? A rabbinic debate

Medieval Jewish rationalists like Maimonides drew on the early critiques of the need for sacrifice, taking the view that God always held sacrifice inferior to prayer and philosophical meditation. However, God understood that the Israelites were used to the animal sacrifices that the surrounding pagan tribes used as the primary way to commune with their gods. As such, in Maimonides' view, it was only natural that Israelites would believe that sacrifice would be a necessary part of the relationship between God and man. Maimonides concludes that God's decision to allow sacrifices was a concession to human psychological limitations. It would have been too much to have expected the Israelites to leap from pagan worship to prayer and meditation in one step. In his Guide to the Perplexed he writes:

"But the custom which was in those days general among men, and the general mode of worship in which the Israelites were brought up consisted in sacrificing animals... It was in accordance with the wisdom and plan of God...that God did not command us to give up and to discontinue all these manners of service. For to obey such a commandment would have been contrary to the nature of man, who generally cleaves to that to which he is used; it would in those days have made the same impression as a prophet would make at present [the 12th Century ] if he called us to the service of God and told us in His name, that we should not pray to God nor fast, nor seek His help in time of trouble; that we should serve Him in thought, and not by any action." (Book III, Chapter 32. Translated by M. Friedlander, 1904, The Guide for the Perplexed, Dover Publications, 1956 edition.)

In contrast, many others such as Nachmanides (in his Torah commentary on Leviticus 1:9) disagreed. Nachmanides cites the fact that the Torah records the practices of animal and other sacrifices from the times of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and earlier. Indeed, the purpose of recounting the near sacrifice of Isaac, known in Judaism as "The Binding of Isaac" (Akeidat Yitzhak or the Akeidah) was to illustrate the sublime significance and need of animal sacrifices as supplanting the abomination of human sacrifices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban

Well, I have a question.

Why then did God prefer the sacrifice of the lamb that Abel preformed?

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: 1) I guess so that Kohanim don't starve. Doh.

2) Hebrew word for sacrifice is korban. From same root as the word karov, which means close. I'm sure you can figure out the connection. It's all in the Hebrew man, gotta know it.

3) More on the mystal side - soul is made up of two components, the animal soul and the G-dly soul. Sacrifice symbolizes bringing your animal soul (physical desires, etc) to G-d. Judaism teaches to not destroy the animal soul (desires, pleasures, etc), but bring them close to G-d. Or put it in His service.


Interesting.

So the purpose of the sacrifice seems to be to bring the person close to God (a type of closing the gap between one and God).

Yes, that is an important purpose.

Quote: And according to you there is a type of "animal" soul.

I should have been more clear -- according to certain mystical teachings within Judaism.

Quote: It almost seems like it represents the "killing" of the animal soul which is separating or in the way of the person's "G-dly" soul from God.

Almost, but not it. Utilize the animal soul serve G-d, not kill it. Killing it is more of Christian idea (as I perceive it) -- man is born in sin, sex is sin, etc -- gotta get rid of sin, stay celibate, etc. I realize that I didn't quite do justice to the Christian (Catholic) doctrine in that haphazard sentence, but you know what I'm getting at.

[Duchifas]

Quote: Why then did God prefer the sacrifice of the lamb that Abel preformed?

Ask me in two weeks, since we will be starting the annual Torah reading cycle again from Genesis then. :)

I would guess the intention was at issue. As I implied above, the intention is always the most important part of sacrifice, not the actual animal. The actual animal is like a formality almost. A person's intent is what matters.

[John]

Quote: Almost, but not it. Utilize the animal soul serve G-d, not kill it. Killing it is more of Christian idea (as I perceive it) -- man is born in sin, sex is sin, etc -- gotta get rid of sin, stay celibate, etc. I realize that I didn't quite do justice to the Christian (Catholic) doctrine in that haphazard sentence, but you know what I'm getting at.

Sex isn't sin. Sex that is practiced out of God's will is sin.

How does one "utilize" something that is separating him from God? Seems like the obstacle would need to be removed in order for separation not to happen.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: Quote: Why then did God prefer the sacrifice of the lamb that Abel preformed?

Ask me in two weeks, since we will be starting the annual Torah reading cycle again from Genesis then. :)

I would guess the intention was at issue. As I implied above, the intention is always the most important part of sacrifice, not the actual animal. The actual animal is like a formality almost. A person's intent is what matters.

But there has got to be a reason why God choose to use the sacrifice of the lamb as the object of Abel's intent. The pattern is repeated throughout the entire Bible.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: Almost, but not it. Utilize the animal soul serve G-d, not kill it. Killing it is more of Christian idea (as I perceive it) -- man is born in sin, sex is sin, etc -- gotta get rid of sin, stay celibate, etc. I realize that I didn't quite do justice to the Christian (Catholic) doctrine in that haphazard sentence, but you know what I'm getting at.

Sex isn't sin. Sex that is practiced out of God's will is sin.

Right, right. As I implied with the parens, I was mostly referring to the concept of Catholics priests and nuns celibacy. I realize that your branch of Christianity doesn't subscribe to that and ministers do have wives.

Quote: How does one "utilize" something that is separating him from God? Seems like the obstacle would need to be removed in order for separation not to happen.

Ah, "how" indeed. Well, that's the whole point of Judaism. To figure out how to do that. You don't expect me to answer it in one post, do you? :)

[John]

Quote: Ah, "how" indeed. Well, that's the whole point of Judaism. To figure out how to do that. You don't expect me to answer it in one post, do you?

But didn't God promise to redeem His people? Does being redeemed involve figuring something out?

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: Ah, "how" indeed. Well, that's the whole point of Judaism. To figure out how to do that. You don't expect me to answer it in one post, do you?

But didn't God promise to redeem His people? Does being redeemed involve figuring something out?

G-d promised many things. In most cases, for those promises to come about we have to work VERY HARD on it.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: Ah, "how" indeed. Well, that's the whole point of Judaism. To figure out how to do that. You don't expect me to answer it in one post, do you?

But didn't God promise to redeem His people? Does being redeemed involve figuring something out?

G-d promised many things. In most cases, for those promises to come about we have to work VERY HARD on it.

Like working hard at loving Him?

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: Ah, "how" indeed. Well, that's the whole point of Judaism. To figure out how to do that. You don't expect me to answer it in one post, do you?

But didn't God promise to redeem His people? Does being redeemed involve figuring something out?

G-d promised many things. In most cases, for those promises to come about we have to work VERY HARD on it.

Like working hard at loving Him?

Yup. And in more than just declarations of love.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: Ah, "how" indeed. Well, that's the whole point of Judaism. To figure out how to do that. You don't expect me to answer it in one post, do you?

But didn't God promise to redeem His people? Does being redeemed involve figuring something out?

G-d promised many things. In most cases, for those promises to come about we have to work VERY HARD on it.

Like working hard at loving Him?

Yup. And in more than just declarations of love.

Like what?

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: Ah, "how" indeed. Well, that's the whole point of Judaism. To figure out how to do that. You don't expect me to answer it in one post, do you?

But didn't God promise to redeem His people? Does being redeemed involve figuring something out?

G-d promised many things. In most cases, for those promises to come about we have to work VERY HARD on it.

Like working hard at loving Him?

Yup. And in more than just declarations of love.

Like what?

Like serving Him. By fulfilling His commandments and more.