Political Crossfire Forums

[Robin Hood]

Quote: they place themselves at the mercy of local warlords who just seek money & power from such a lucrative trade,

Only because we prohibit their products.

Quote: they also reduce their ability to survive for example in a drought because they have no food.

:lol: Are you serious? Do you grow food? Maybe you should be banned from any activity but food production as they 'reduce' your ability to survive in a drought.....
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Not to mention the fact that they (indirectly) cause the misery of drug abuse in the countries who trade with them,

They also cause the huge amounts of enjoyment that are had from drug use.
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though I don't blame the farmers since the repressive trade system (hello CAP) has driven the price of food so ridiculously low that they might as well sell rocks from the hills.

I still can't understand why none of our three parties campaign against CAP. On their side they could have the free traders, the 'Christian' aiders, all third world countries, the large multinational corporations (reducing barriers is normally recipricated), the xenophobes (stick it to the French), the normal consumer as grocery bills would supposedly fall by a third, and anyone who'd like to poverty reduced in Britain and the rest of the world ; whilst against them would be who? Some farmers? Most would accept the end of CAP in exchange for a little deregulation (they see the New Zealand example). Who then?

[JDnCoke]

Reason wrote: Only because we prohibit their products.

You don't think the desperation of a place such as Afghanistan that such a trade wouldn't be abused? Just look at the Gold Rushes in the US and Australia, perfectly legal but you still had violent crime and such like taking place... Legalising it is not a magic bullet.

Reason wrote: :lol: Are you serious? Do you grow food? Maybe you should be banned from any activity but food production as they 'reduce' your ability to survive in a drought.....

Oh don't be silly, I badly phrased what I meant to say: if they're growing opium poppies they can't grow wheat = death by starvation if those that do farm food crops fail.

Reason wrote: They also cause the huge amounts of enjoyment that are had from drug use.

From a medical point of view, its a bloody pain in the arse working 16 hour shifts in A&E with a bunch of crackheads convulsing all over the place! :x

Reason wrote: I still can't understand why none of our three parties campaign against CAP. On their side they could have the free traders, the 'Christian' aiders, all third world countries, the large multinational corporations (reducing barriers is normally recipricated), the xenophobes (stick it to the French), the normal consumer as grocery bills would supposedly fall by a third, and anyone who'd like to poverty reduced in Britain and the rest of the world ; whilst against them would be who? Some farmers? Most would accept the end of CAP in exchange for a little deregulation (they see the New Zealand example). Who then?

Absolutely right, personally I blame the lack of direct action on the behalf of the EU on this, they could easily have re-educated French, Spanish Greek etc. farmers who recieve these subsidies to diversify. Just look at the US in the 1920s, cotton and wheat farmers were doing s**t, so they switched to wine and oranges and made a bloody profit and people were more healthy all round!

Mediterrenean countries can grown any number of exotic products, they could even grow weird herbs and start up some "healthy cosmetic" range or something. The same goes for Britain & Germany when it comes to fishing, there are over 60 times of abundent, edible and probably delicious types of fish in the North Sea + Atlantic, but we just eat Cod, which is probably going to go extinct because we've depleted the gene pool to nothingness, and yet the Fish Subsidies Programme (name slips me for the moment) keeps them going. :roll:

[Robin Hood]

Quote: You don't think the desperation of a place such as Afghanistan that such a trade wouldn't be abused? Just look at the Gold Rushes in the US and Australia, perfectly legal but you still had violent crime and such like taking place... Legalising it is not a magic bullet.

Drugs are mostly extremely easy to grow and refine. What is more is that most seem better able to grow in land that is not very useful. Such as mountain sides. I doubt that drug cultivation could possibly be compared to the gold rush in respect of it's profitability if it were legal. The better comparison is wther huge criminal organisation exist in the apple trade. Legalisation is a magic bullet.

Quote: Oh don't be silly, I badly phrased what I meant to say: if they're growing opium poppies they can't grow wheat = death by starvation if those that do farm food crops fail.

No-one is going to be growing much more food than can be consumed or sold. That would enitrely pointless. So if a harvest fails now then they'd already have problems. Cultivating poppies would diminish their chances of famine, as people could buy food and there'd be greater realisable demand for food - resulting in more being grown.

The reasoning here, is the same as would stem from my earlier analogy.

Quote: From a medical point of view, its a bloody pain in the arse working 16 hour shifts in A&E with a bunch of crackheads convulsing all over the place!

I'm sure it is; however without those crackheads many doctors wouldn't have jobs as doctors. There'd be less demand for medics.

Quote: Mediterrenean countries can grown any number of exotic products, they could even grow weird herbs and start up some "healthy cosmetic" range or something.

We could leaglise drugs and then they could grow those. Organic marijuana farm-grown, in Tuscany would surely be a big seller. Or Coco Chanel cocaine, refined in St. Tropez...

[The Redcoat]

Reason wrote: 8% of international trade is in illegal drugs.......that's a whole lot of criminals created by prohibition.

So, if illegal drugs are legalized, then those criminals would stop fighting over drug production and such and stop making millions? It just means the police would be out of their hair, and they can sell to whoever they want. It won't solve anything, local dealers will still mix crap with drugs to save money. Dealers will still shoot up other dealers and druggies will still commit terrible crimes to get the money to get more drugs. Most of the drugs will still come from abroad and the gangwars involved in controlling who gets what share will be the same.

They may be "criminals" now, but it doesn't matter what you call them they'll still be getting rich and people will still keep getting into the business. Just because a drug is made legal doesn't mean these guys will stop shipping it in.

Your dillusional.

[JDnCoke]

Reason wrote: We could leaglise drugs and then they could grow those. Organic marijuana farm-grown, in Tuscany would surely be a big seller. Or Coco Chanel cocaine, refined in St. Tropez...

Not exactly what I had in mind, more like health based products...

What is your obesession with drugs? Is this your way of being a rebel, flipping of the man? Some kind of philosiphised approach to drug-abuse because the majority of people who do it's response to calls for them to change there ways is "so what f**k you".

Drugs are bad for you, legalising them doesn't change that... And I dare to say that the majority of drug users aren't caught for their use until they've become so addicted that they start infringing on other people's liberty (i.e. addicts robbing from people + shops to pay for a fix, etc).

[Robin Hood]

Quote: What is your obesession with drugs? Is this your way of being a rebel, flipping of the man?

No, it's not. I take a fair few, but it's only when I'm debating with you. You calim to be a classical liberal yet support the prohibition of drugs.

Quote: Drugs are bad for you, legalising them doesn't change that...

Why would anyone take them if they were bad for you, in terms of net effects? (pros minus cons).
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And I dare to say that the majority of drug users aren't caught for their use until they've become so addicted that they start infringing on other people's liberty (i.e. addicts robbing from people + shops to pay for a fix, etc).

And why is there theft to pay for drugs...because drugs are ludicrously expensive...because they are banned.

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So, if illegal drugs are legalized, then those criminals would stop fighting over drug production and such and stop making millions?

You don't get criminals fighting over wheat production why'd you get it over weed production?
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It just means the police would be out of their hair, and they can sell to whoever they want.

Which would mean that the agents in the drugs trade would no longer be criminals and thus would no longer have to function outside of the law.

Quote: It won't solve anything, local dealers will still mix crap with drugs to save money.

Do local dealers mix flour with crap to save money?
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Dealers will still shoot up other dealers and druggies will still commit terrible crimes to get the money to get more drugs.

I suppose that's what they said about the mafia and alcohol....funny, I don't see any alcohol wars.

Quote: ost of the drugs will still come from abroad and the gangwars involved in controlling who gets what share will be the same.

Why? The legalized mthings that we buy from abroad aren't controlled by vicious gangs, the illegal things are....I wonder why that is?

[JDnCoke]

Reason wrote: No, it's not. I take a fair few, but it's only when I'm debating with you. You calim to be a classical liberal yet support the prohibition of drugs.

You really do have a problem with reading... for the 3rd time I have to point out to you something I said... Go to the first page, I was the first to reply to this bloody thread with "Legalise personal use". Jesus! :roll:

Reason wrote: Why would anyone take them if they were bad for you, in terms of net effects? (pros minus cons).

Lack of education, boredom, attempt to be popular - 'fit in', experimentation, depression and/or suicidal feelings.

Whatever the reasons, drug's aren't good for you. It's a simple fact. Whatever people claim to say they get out of drugs is none of my business and I don't really care, BUT it is sad to see families torn apart by rampant drug abuse, or by sons/daughters etc. dying from drugs. Life's a b**** I guess.

Still you seem like some wooly-blinkered upper-class Drug Connoisseur, perhaps you should do some voluntary work with some drug-abusers to get a more rounded view.

Reason wrote: And why is there theft to pay for drugs...because drugs are ludicrously expensive...because they are banned.

Drugs aren't expensive :lol:, otherwise how would the nations teenage youth afford it? It's what £10 for some heroin, I know you can get £5-bags and 10-bags for cannabis and such. Cocaine is a bit more expensive but some people might just do crack.

The main reason why they do commit crime is the fact that drug abuse has caused physical harm (i.e. ill so can't work) and mental harm (i.e. doing cannabis or coke might make you paranoid so you freak out and don't go to work). You can't abuse drugs and hold down a job, you lose your job but you're still addicted so you have to steal to keep going... Vicious cycle really...

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So, if illegal drugs are legalized, then those criminals would stop fighting over drug production and such and stop making millions?

You don't get criminals fighting over wheat production why'd you get it over weed production?
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It just means the police would be out of their hair, and they can sell to whoever they want.

Which would mean that the agents in the drugs trade would no longer be criminals and thus would no longer have to function outside of the law.

Quote: It won't solve anything, local dealers will still mix crap with drugs to save money.

Do local dealers mix flour with crap to save money?
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Dealers will still shoot up other dealers and druggies will still commit terrible crimes to get the money to get more drugs.

I suppose that's what they said about the mafia and alcohol....funny, I don't see any alcohol wars.

Quote: ost of the drugs will still come from abroad and the gangwars involved in controlling who gets what share will be the same.

Why? The legalized mthings that we buy from abroad aren't controlled by vicious gangs, the illegal things are....I wonder why that is?[/quote]

You really don't have much of an idea of the drug industry do you... It's not like legalising is going to turn ThugNo1 into Local Philantrophist now is it... :roll:

[Robin Hood]

Quote: You really do have a problem with reading... for the 3rd time I have to point out to you something I said... Go to the first page, I was the first to reply to this bloody thread with "Legalise personal use". Jesus!

Right next to 'ban dealing'. :lol:
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Lack of education, boredom, attempt to be popular - 'fit in', experimentation, depression and/or suicidal feelings.

How about taking people at their word....fun.

Quote: Still you seem like some wooly-blinkered upper-class Drug Connoisseur, perhaps you should do some voluntary work with some drug-abusers to get a more rounded view.

Please stop trying to characterise me, it's a little annoying.

Quote: Whatever people claim to say they get out of drugs is none of my business and I don't really care,

Yes, it is none of your business, and second guessing their motivations is pointless, when an overwheleming number of people don't regret their use of drugs........

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Drugs aren't expensive Laughing, otherwise how would the nations teenage youth afford it? It's what £10 for some heroin, I know you can get £5-bags and 10-bags for cannabis and such. Cocaine is a bit more expensive but some people might just do crack.

Drugs are expensive, people have crack habits that run into hundreds of pounds a week. Cocaine should be about as expensive as flour, and cannibus, well that should be cheaper than wheat.

Quote: (i.e. doing cannabis or coke might make you paranoid so you freak out and don't go to work).

I'd love to see the career criminal committing crime because they smoke too much cannabis....that'd be hilarious but sadly it doesn't exist.

Quote: You really don't have much of an idea of the drug industry do you... It's not like legalising is going to turn ThugNo1 into Local Philantrophist now is it...

I've actually been part of that industry...I doubt you have. I know how natsy a lot of the people inside it are. I also know how nice alot are. Anyway the simple fact is that if legalised, legitimate businesses would control it. THis is what happens with every good and service that is legalised and not insanely regulated.

[The Redcoat]

Reason wrote: Quote: What is your obesession with drugs? Is this your way of being a rebel, flipping of the man?

No, it's not. I take a fair few, but it's only when I'm debating with you. You calim to be a classical liberal yet support the prohibition of drugs.

Quote: Drugs are bad for you, legalising them doesn't change that...

Why would anyone take them if they were bad for you, in terms of net effects? (pros minus cons).
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And I dare to say that the majority of drug users aren't caught for their use until they've become so addicted that they start infringing on other people's liberty (i.e. addicts robbing from people + shops to pay for a fix, etc).

And why is there theft to pay for drugs...because drugs are ludicrously expensive...because they are banned.

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So, if illegal drugs are legalized, then those criminals would stop fighting over drug production and such and stop making millions?

You don't get criminals fighting over wheat production why'd you get it over weed production?
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It just means the police would be out of their hair, and they can sell to whoever they want.

Which would mean that the agents in the drugs trade would no longer be criminals and thus would no longer have to function outside of the law.

Quote: It won't solve anything, local dealers will still mix crap with drugs to save money.

Do local dealers mix flour with crap to save money?
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Dealers will still shoot up other dealers and druggies will still commit terrible crimes to get the money to get more drugs.

I suppose that's what they said about the mafia and alcohol....funny, I don't see any alcohol wars.

Quote: ost of the drugs will still come from abroad and the gangwars involved in controlling who gets what share will be the same.

Why? The legalized mthings that we buy from abroad aren't controlled by vicious gangs, the illegal things are....I wonder why that is?

Ok, criminals don't fight over Wheat because it's not very valuable, drug production IS.

Dealers don't mix flour with crap to save money because flour is dirt cheap, duh.

It doesn't matter if they operate lawfully, they don't make their money by being secretive, they make their money by selling drugs.

I'm not sure where your going with the mafia and alcohol comparison...

[JDnCoke]

[quote="Reason"]Right next to 'ban dealing'. :lol: Quote:

Maybe we should open Pharmaceuticals up the general public!

[quote="Reason"]How about taking people at their word....fun.

That comes under experimentation.

Reason wrote: Please stop trying to characterise me, it's a little annoying.

Stop being so dillusionaly unreasonable then.

Reason wrote: Yes, it is none of your business, and second guessing their motivations is pointless, when an overwheleming number of people don't regret their use of drugs........

Tell that to the families of Leah Betts and others like her.

Reason wrote: Drugs are expensive, people have crack habits that run into hundreds of pounds a week. Cocaine should be about as expensive as flour, and cannibus, well that should be cheaper than wheat.

:lol: Says who? If the true cost of CoCo Chanel was on the label we'd have it for toilet airfreshener at McDonalds.

Reason wrote: I'd love to see the career criminal committing crime because they smoke too much cannabis....that'd be hilarious but sadly it doesn't exist.

Because the hoodies at the local shop are ever so pleasant! :sigh1:

Reason wrote: I've actually been part of that industry...I doubt you have. I know how natsy a lot of the people inside it are. I also know how nice alot are. Anyway the simple fact is that if legalised, legitimate businesses would control it. THis is what happens with every good and service that is legalised and not insanely regulated.

Of course I haven't, because I'm not as cool as you, right? Ooh, you rebel! You've been in the drug dealing business! How worldy you are!

Gimme a break, you got any evidence that an industry so thickly coated with a culture of criminality will become as common as Tesco on the highstreet? Otherwise put up or shut up, you really are talking rubbish now.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Ok, criminals don't fight over Wheat because it's not very valuable, drug production IS.

Why is it very valuable? It's certainly not because drugs are difficult to produce. Or that there is huge amounts of R&D spending, or marketing. Maybe because it is prohibited?

Quote: I'm not sure where your going with the mafia and alcohol comparison...

What gave the mafia power? Prohibition of alcochol. What gave modern gangs power? Prohibition of drugs.

Quote: That comes under experimentation.

Well, not really. Once or twice is really experimentation. Mutliple use is normally for reasons of fun.

Quote: Tell that to the families of Leah Betts and others like her.

You have picked an example from millions. Leah Betts overdosed on water. That was a stupid thing to do, and why was she lacking the information needed to avoid it? Prohibition.

Anyway, people die from going for a run.....maybe that is bad for you too. One example does not, in any way, show that the majority don't regret it. Which they don't. Ask people who've used drugs, people around you.

Quote: Laughing Says who? If the true cost of CoCo Chanel was on the label we'd have it for toilet airfreshener at McDonalds.

Sure. This does not run counter to the fact that cheap, extremely cheap, drugs would be supplied. Maybe there would be 'haute couture' drugs, but any idiot can grow cannibis.

Quote: Because the hoodies at the local shop are ever so pleasant! sigh

:lol: The Americans here will be a little confused. Anyway, the skallies (much better term) at the local shops exist everywhere, cannibis or not. Most of them don't have any, and possibly have never smoked any. They're pretty young and completely clueless. Cider is probably their intoxicant of choice....the really horrible, heavily discounted stuff that people tend to drink at 13.


Quote: Of course I haven't, because I'm not as cool as you, right? Ooh, you rebel! You've been in the drug dealing business! How worldy you are!

This is irrelevant cr*p. Stop trying to put words into my mouth. If I cared about being 'cool' I probably wouldn't post here, and would have a Che Guevara t-shirt on.

Quote: Gimme a break, you got any evidence that an industry so thickly coated with a culture of criminality will become as common as Tesco on the highstreet? Otherwise put up or shut up, you really are talking rubbish now.

What happened with alcochol in the US? Is it sold in Wal-Mart? How could allowing anyopne who wanted to, to sell drugs not achieve that? tesco themselves could be selling them.