Political Crossfire Forums

[Enoch]

clarity wrote: i am too smaller person with a too limited knowledge of the world to deicide all that. that would be up to the leaders who we choose to represent us to decide

Theoretically speaking, a world government is not entirely a bad idea. All people subjected to the same laws, governed by the same people, and equal in every aspect.

However, the reality is that this will never come to fruition. There are too many variables to consider. It would be near impossible for democratic nations to come to agreement on a governmental strategy with more totalitarian regimes, true monarchies (not the UK, since they are not a true monarchy), theocratic governments, dictatorships, and communistic regimes.

Each form of government believes that their form is the best and will never bow to another form willingly. We would be looking at WW3 to try to get a world government installed.

[bob.appleyard]

Quote: I guess i feel they should officaly be part of Britain cause they were there in the early days and were once part of Britain, now untill there back Britain can never be whole.

Which early days? The days when the English ruled Britain, the Scottish ruled Scotland and the Irish ruled Ireland? Or when Britain was ruled by British, and Ireland was ruled by Irish? Or when the Romans ruled Britain, and the Irish ruled Ireland? Or before that, when the whole archipelago (minus, perhaps, the highlands of Scotland) was ruled by different Celtic tribes (of which the Irish were descended, but also the Welsh, and western Scottish)?

Britain = England + Wales. Ireland has never been part of it. Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Sorry, pedant attack. But you must realise that Ireland has a very different history from England. For one thing, until about 450 years ago, there were no English there (or at least very few). When they did come, they came as conquerors and colonists.

Very true that we all tend to get along quite well nowadays. Partly because the propaganda classing Irish people as subhuman is much less pronounced these days (pretty much at the level of scorn we have for every national group, including ourselves).

[clarity]

If anything it will be WW3 that will create the world goverment, the strange thing about mankind is they only stand tall amongst each other when they have had a fall.

is their any physical diffrence between the irish, welsh,english and scottish. No because over the past thousnad years our people have mixed and now we have British Blood (a mix of all races) their are hundreds of mixed raced people in ireland and the rest of Britain. This is why i thought we could reunite. as we are the same people now more than ever. the only thing that gives us our race is the border we live in.

[bob.appleyard]

Aah, so you're going off blood, now, are you? Bit of eugenics for us all to savour.

The only possible argument you could have had for "Britishness" was cultural. The Celts came to the British isles from Europe. So did the Romans, English, Norse, Normans, etc. So you should be arguing for a European government, which you are. That makes a lot more sense, following the "blood" argument. But for restored English hegemony over the whole of Britain?

The whole of Europe is much MUCH more mixed up genetically than you might imagine. People have been moving around it throughout history. A genetic argument just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[clarity]

once again i ask this question who are you to decide that, it is all up to perception of the people with the power

[Loche]

[quote]I'm not saying by any means the way old Britain acted was right, they were d**k heads. But i view Ireland as part of Britain i carnt change that view its just the way i see it. Just like people from Northern ireland can call themself British why carnt u.
[/quote]

I am Irish and I am going to weigh in on your little idea. First of the Irish are not British at all. We are Celts you are Anglo-Saxon and Norman, which is why the Irish look better than the Brits. Second, You stated that we speak the British language. Well yes we do, but we still speak our own my friend. An urrainn dhut duin suas? Also, Americans speak the British language, should Britain take them over again ?

[quote]first of all i feel the prejudice between our two countries were left behind in the last century, english, wlsh and scottish get along fine with the irish nowa days.

I guess i feel they should officaly be part of Britain cause they were there in the early days and were once part of Britain, now untill there back Britain can never be whole.[/quote]

It was never left behind. How could anyone forgive the British of the horrible things they did to the Irish. This existed up until the point where Ireland won back its freedom. The Irish and the Scottish get along fine. That is because we were both treated the same way, really the Scots had it worse.

Look just because you like how you country would look on a map is no reason to pull them back into a nation they have no desire being in. So get over the fact that your nation does not look cool on a map, because Ireland will never be a part of Britain again.

[Snow Patrol]

clarity wrote: Ireland is part of the British isles, i feel that ireland is part of my nation and i was annoyed when i had learned it had claimed independance.

Why would they withdraw from one of the greatest nations in the world.

I think they should rejoin the rest of their family, them leaving has helped no one only made things so much more complecated.

If they rejoin Britain then we will be back to full strength and i will welcome them with open arms
You mean Ireland, against the will of it's people, should rejoin a country that in the last ten years has become more devolved it has in nearly 300 hundred years anyway? :lol:

Again with one of your posts, i find myself wondering exactly what kind of reality you live in.

[thefranzkafkafront]

jawsome wrote: all of ireland should be independent.

26+6=1. :wink:

Well its important to note that the vast majority (due to a slight sorrid history) of northen ireland is completely english, there have been referendums and it has allways gone the way of remaining part of the u.k.


Also ireland has no more reason to be indepedant that wales scotland or even cornwall.

[assclown]

"Also ireland has no more reason to be indepedant that wales scotland or even cornwall"

That's asking all the Irish and Scottish to forget the last 2,000 years of Irish and Scottish history. I don't know much about wales or cornwall, but I do know a lot about how the English treated my Irish(Murphy) and Scottish(Buchanan) ancesters. If anything, Scotland and Ireland should merge and screw england. Both the Irish and Scots are of Celtic origin and share the same gaelic language. In fact, Most of the "Highlanders" of scotland emigrated there from Ireland and settled it.

Then the English could seek to join the "United Kingdom of Scotland and Ireland" :wink:

[thefranzkafkafront]

assclown wrote: "Also ireland has no more reason to be indepedant that wales scotland or even cornwall"

That's asking all the Irish and Scottish to forget the last 2,000 years of Irish and Scottish history. I don't know much about wales or cornwall, but I do know a lot about how the English treated my Irish(Murphy) and Scottish(Buchanan) ancesters. If anything, Scotland and Ireland should merge and screw england. Both the Irish and Scots are of Celtic origin and share the same gaelic language. In fact, Most of the "Highlanders" of scotland emigrated there from Ireland and settled it.

Then the English could seek to join the "United Kingdom of Scotland and Ireland" :wink:
Im scotish and i am also from the highlands. I am both British and Scotish at exaclty the same time, was there even a britian before scotland. No there was not.

All the achievements of Britian were that of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England Collectively.
My point is the only claim to indepedance Ireland has is its ethinicity something it shares with Cornwall, Scotland and Wales.

[assclown]

Ah, but there is a difference between "Great Britian" (all of the united kingdom actually) and "England". A Scot can be proud of his country (U.K.) and not forget John Bull's tyrrany nor the culture and language they share more with Ireland than England. I'm just saying that if there were to be a division/merger of anything there, Scotland and Ireland should be the ones merging. first.

Realistically though, of course it would be better if all of the Isles were under one government that they all would agree upon, not one that is forced upon them.

EDIT: just wanted to add that Texas was a republic, and independant country before becoming a state, and it is legal for Texas to sucede from the Union whenever Texas wants to, without the 3/4 vote requirement the other states have.

[thefranzkafkafront]

assclown wrote: Ah, but there is a difference between "Great Britian" (all of the united kingdom actually) and "England". A Scot can be proud of his country (U.K.) and not forget John Bull's tyrrany nor the culture and language they share more with Ireland than England. I'm just saying that if there were to be a division/merger of anything there, Scotland and Ireland should be the ones merging. first.

Realistically though, of course it would be better if all of the Isles were under one government that they all would agree upon, not one that is forced upon them.

Dose it really make that big a diffrence whever your mp's travel to Westminster Or Dublin?

[assclown]

"Patriot Game"

"Come all ye young rebels, and list while I sing,
For the love of one's country is a terrible thing.
It banishes fear with the speed of a flame,
And it makes us all part of the patriot game.

My name is O'Hanlon, and I've just turned sixteen.
My home is in Monaghan, and where I was weaned
I learned all my life cruel England's to blame,
So now I am part of the patriot game.

This Ireland of ours has too long been half free.
Six counties lie under John Bull's tyranny.
But still De Valera is greatly to blame
For shirking his part in the Patriot game.

They told me how Connolly was shot in his chair,
His wounds from the fighting all bloody and bare.
His fine body twisted, all battered and lame
They soon made me part of the patriot game.

It's nearly two years since I wandered away
With the local battalion of the bold IRA,
For I read of our heroes, and wanted the same
To play out my part in the patriot game.

I don't mind a bit if I shoot down police
They are lackeys for war never guardians of peace
And yet at deserters I'm never let aim
The rebels who sold out the patriot game

And now as I lie here, my body all holes
I think of those traitors who bargained in souls
And I wish that my rifle had given the same
To those Quislings who sold out the patriot game."

-Dominic Behan

Many Irish do not take the occupation of Northern Ireland nor the treatement of the Irish by the English lightly. I do not advocate anything the IRA has done, I just want to remind you that many Irish living in Ireland have a reason for hating the British. I do not think that as long as Ulster is occupied by anyone but the Irish, that there is a chance in hell that the Irish would vote to be united with Britian. I think that if Britain had never occupied Northern Ireland, it is possible that right now Ireland would be part of the United Kingdom, and would have joined peacefully and willingly. You must understand the situation as it is. The Irish are not trying to take over northern Ireland for the hell of it. The Irish were forced out of their homes, off of their land, by the british at gun point. The ones that are voting for northern ireland to stay part of the U.K., not for it to be re-united with Ireland, Are the settlers there, from the U.K. that were given the homes and lands TAKEN from the Irish that were there. The Irish that had lived there, and would have wanted to stay part of Ireland instead of the U.K. were driven out.

Forcing the Irish out of their homes at gunpoint and moving settlers in then asking the Irish "Dose it really make that big a diffrence whever your mp's travel to Westminster Or Dublin?" what the hell kind of question is that? Are you on crack?

[Snow Patrol]

assclown wrote: Many Irish do not take the occupation of Northern Ireland nor the treatement of the Irish by the English lightly. I do not advocate anything the IRA has done, I just want to remind you that many Irish living in Ireland have a reason for hating the British. I do not think that as long as Ulster is occupied by anyone but the Irish, that there is a chance in hell that the Irish would vote to be united with Britian. I think that if Britain had never occupied Northern Ireland, it is possible that right now Ireland would be part of the United Kingdom, and would have joined peacefully and willingly.
How exactly is Britain occupying Northern Ireland?

You do know there have been a number of referenda held in Ulster to decide if the people wish to remain a part of Britain or not, and each time the people have voted to stay a part of Britain.

[thundertaker]

Most of the protestants in NI are descended from Scottish (not English) settlers. As you yourself have mentioned, the scots and Irish are closely linked. In fact, the scots themselves were descended from the 'Scotti' tribe of Ulster which invaded Western Caledonia and stole the land off the picts. So the Scots who settled in Ulster were really only returning 'home' by a lot of people's definitions....

[Jehan]

Ireland should remain independent. They are perfectly fine and happy being independent, and they fought tooth and nail to get that way. If the Confederacy managed to fight off the Union and become independent, then they should have been allowed to stay independent. Obviously, that is not the case with our history.

Therefore, I say, leave Ireland alone.

[clarity]

Loche wrote:

It was never left behind. How could anyone forgive the British of the horrible things they did to the Irish. This existed up until the point where Ireland won back its freedom. The Irish and the Scottish get along fine. That is because we were both treated the same way, really the Scots had it worse.
.

Ok when you said horribly things you said'British' and then you went onto to say scottland was treated the same way, well news flash Scottland was and is part of Britain.

And back in those days it was a diffrent era where tyranny was common. that is not the case today, partly because of Britain.

Dont look down your noses at England i even heard a comment from someone who said Ireland would have done the exact same thing to England if they had gotten their first.

Would we be having this conversation if it was ireland that dominated Britain.

Or would the english be slagging down the Irish. people should stop bringing up the way people acted in the past we are not those poeple we have evolved as a society and have a democracy.

[thundertaker]

Dude, why are we even discussing this as a serious issue? Ireland is never going to be part of Britian again, and Britain certainly isn't going to invade Ireland. It's irrelevent anyway, as one day we'll all be subsumed in a gigantic european superstate, and it won't matter a flying f**k from were Ireland is locally administered....

[Enoch]

clarity wrote: Loche wrote:

It was never left behind. How could anyone forgive the British of the horrible things they did to the Irish. This existed up until the point where Ireland won back its freedom. The Irish and the Scottish get along fine. That is because we were both treated the same way, really the Scots had it worse.
.

Ok when you said horribly things you said'British' and then you went onto to say scottland was treated the same way, well news flash Scottland was and is part of Britain.

And back in those days it was a diffrent era where tyranny was common. that is not the case today, partly because of Britain.

Dont look down your noses at England i even heard a comment from someone who said Ireland would have done the exact same thing to England if they had gotten their first.

Would we be having this conversation if it was ireland that dominated Britain.

Or would the english be slagging down the Irish. people should stop bringing up the way people acted in the past we are not those poeple we have evolved as a society and have a democracy.

And as an evolved democracy the decision to join the United Kingdom should be up to the Irish. And, since, it does not appear that there is a clammoring for that to happen, this becomes a dead issued.

[clarity]

Well i suppose once europe forms a true goverment ireland and the uk will be part of the same nation anyway