Political Crossfire Forums

[psholtz]

I'm guessing that somebody around here doesn't like the Turks very much! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Eton]

I object to Ferdinand and Isabella and also Richard the Lionheart.
The Moorish kingdom in Spain and the Saracen control of the Holy Land were infinitely more tolerant and enlightened than the alternative offered up by these Christian butchers.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Eton wrote: I object to Ferdinand and Isabella and also Richard the Lionheart.
The Moorish kingdom in Spain and the Saracen control of the Holy Land were infinitely more tolerant and enlightened than the alternative offered up by these Christian butchers. EXCUSE ME???????????You object because the Spaniards free their country from muslim occupation?

[Eton]

'Spain' didn't even exist then.
Personally, if I were a peasent in the Liberian peninsular then I would prefer Moorish rule over Christian tyranny. Doubly so if I were Jewish.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Eton wrote: 'Spain' didn't even exist then.
Personally, if I were a peasent in the Liberian peninsular then I would prefer Moorish rule over Christian tyranny. Doubly so if I were Jewish. "In the 8th century, nearly all the Iberian peninsula, which had been under Visigothic rule, was quickly conquered (from 711), by Muslims (the Moors), who had crossed over from North Africa, as part of the expansion of the Umayyad empire. Only three small counties in the north kept their independence: Asturias, Navarra and Aragon, which eventually became kingdoms.

Very soon the Muslim emirate split in small kingdoms. Christian and Muslim kingdoms fought and allied among themselves. The Muslim taifa kings competed in patronage of the arts, the Way of Saint James attracted pilgrims from all Western Europe and the Jewish population of Iberia set the basis of Sephardic culture. Much of Spain's distinctive art originates from this seven-hundred-year period, and many Arabic words made their way into Spanish and Catalan, and from them to other European languages.

The Moorish capital was Córdoba, in the southern portion of Spain known as Andalucía. During the time of Arab occupation, most of the Iberian peninsula was in relative peace, with large populations of Jews, Christians and Muslims living in close quarters, but under very definite Muslim dominance and privileges and restrictions on non-Muslims which grew over time.


IsabellaThe period of expansion of the Christian kingdoms, beginning in 718, only seven years after the Moorish invasion, is called the Reconquista. By the end of the thirteenth century most of the Iberian peninsula had been reconquered. It ended in 1492, when Isabella and Ferdinand captured the southern city of Granada, the last Moorish city in Spain. They then expelled all Muslims and Jews from their new, combined, Christian kingdom. This was also the year that the queen and king funded Columbus' trip to the New World."

[Eton]

Thanks for reiterating my point that Moorish Spain was light years ahead of the anti-semitic hellhole that followed their expulsion.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Eton wrote: Thanks for reiterating my point that Moorish Spain was light years ahead of the anti-semitic hellhole that followed their expulsion. Nice try.What i prove was the Spain was Christians land and that the muslims were the invaders...

[Eton]

The Moors never forced christians to convert to Islam, they were very respectful of other religions.
In anycase you are going into tricky territory because in my opinion Moorish influence lasted for 800 years and after that amount of time they were no longer invaders, they were born and raised there several generations over.
The Visigoths were invaders originally but now we call the Spanish.
How long do a people have to live in a territory before they can call it home?

[The Redcoat]

Lord Admiral Horatio Nelson, defeated Napoleon at sea, and;



Damn forgot to remove the little black strip but anyway, The "Iron Duke", Duke of Wellington, defeated Napoleon at Waterloo :-D.

Old favourites of course but well worth mentioning.

Also, the legendary Saint George!

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Sorry Redcoat but this is a thread about Christians warriors that defend their religion against barbarian invaders.But i love St.George!!!!!!!Did you know that he was Greek and that he is the Saint patron of Greece?

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Eton wrote: The Moors never forced christians to convert to Islam, they were very respectful of other religions.
In anycase you are going into tricky territory because in my opinion Moorish influence lasted for 800 years and after that amount of time they were no longer invaders, they were born and raised there several generations over.
The Visigoths were invaders originally but now we call the Spanish.
How long do a people have to live in a territory before they can call it home? Listen,Eton or whetever the hell your mommy call you, Europe was and is the birthplace of the White Men.The savage ,barbarian Moorish have no f***ing bussines to invete to Spain.

If you like muslims so much maybe you should go and immigrand in a muslim country.They will treat you and your ass just the way you like it.And maybe when you and Hassan or Mohhament or whatever the hell your lovebird name will be live happy in a muslim country you would stop coming here and post any idiotic idea your litlle brain produce...

[The Redcoat]

Achilles The Myrmidon wrote: Sorry Redcoat but this is a thread about Christians warriors that defend their religion against barbarian invaders.But i love St.George!!!!!!!Did you know that he was Greek and that he is the Saint patron of Greece?

Yup, I have a poster with a sexy woman in a bikini on from Saint George's day, explains all about him. It's around here somewhere, if I find it sometime i'll post some interesting facts about him :-D.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Traditional origin
The traditional account of his life is considered to have originated in the 4th century, although few hard facts are known. It is said that George was born in a fuller's shop in Epiphania, in Cilicia, to a Christian family during the late 3rd century [1]. His father was from Cappadocia and served as an officer of the army. His mother was from Lydda, Palestine. She returned to her native city as a widow along with her young son, where she provided her son with a respectable education.

The youth apparently followed his father's example in joining the army soon after his coming of age. Apparently, he proved to be a charismatic soldier and consequently rose quickly through the military ranks of the time. By his late twenties he had gained the titles of tribunus (tribune) and later comes (count), period which George had been positioned in Nicomedia as a member of the personal guard attached to Roman Emperor Diocletian (reign 284–305).

In 303, Diocletian issued an edict authorising the systematic persecution of Christians across the Empire. His caesar Galerius was supposedly responsible for this decision and would continue the persecution during his own reign (305–311). It´s believed that George was ordered to take part in the persecution but instead confessed to being a Christian himself and criticised the imperial decision. An enraged Diocletian proceeded in ordering the torture of this apparent traitor and his execution. According to the tradition, after various other tortures, George was executed by decapitation in front of Nicomedia's defensive wall on April 23, 303. The witness of his suffering convinced Empress Alexandra and an unnamed pagan priest to also become Christians, and so they also joined George in martyrdom as consequence. His body was then returned to Lydda for burial, where Christians soon came to honour George as a martyr.


Veneration as a martyr
The validity of the above account is considered questionable at best. However, his veneration as a martyr appears to have started relatively early. A church in his honour was reportedly built in Lydda during the reign of Constantine I (reigned 306–337, sole emperor since 324). The church was destroyed in 1010 but was later rebuilt by the Crusaders. In 1191 and during the conflict known as the Third Crusade (1189–1192), the church was again destroyed by the forces of Saladin, Sultan of the Ayyubid dynasty (reigned 1171–1193). A new church was erected in 1872 and is still standing.


One of the earliest extant depictions of St George survives in a church at the Russian village of Ladoga.During the 4th century the veneration of George seems to have spread from Palestine to the rest of the Eastern Roman Empire. The 5th century would see his fame reach the Western Roman Empire as well. In 494, George was canonised as a saint by Pope Gelasius I (term 492–496). However Gelasius included George among those "…whose names are justly reverenced among men, but whose acts are known only to God." This statement would not prevent the creation of several differing accounts about his life, several of them filled with miracles. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the earliest text preserving fragments of George's highly miraculous narrative is in Acta Sanctorum identified by Fr. Delehaye of the scholarly Bollandists to be a palimpsest of the 5th century, 'full beyond belief of extravagances and of quite incredible marvels'.

This practice would continue for centuries. In the iconography of Eastern Orthodoxy George has been depicted as a soldier since at least the 7th century. Since the 9th century another popular depiction surfaced: George on horseback as the apparent slayer of a European dragon. This depiction was based on a popular legend of Christian mythology with George as its central figure: "George and the Dragon".

Notably, not all the pictures of a Saint killing a dragon represent Saint George. For instance, in Italy is known Saint Mercurialis, the first bishop of the city of Forlì, in Romagna. He, too, often is taken in the act of killing a dragon.


The Legend of George and the Dragon
It should be noted that the tale found its place in the folk religion of several regions of Europe and Asia Minor so accounts may vary based on local tradition. The tale begins with a dragon making its nest at the spring which provides a city-state with water. Consequently, the citizens had to temporarily remove the dragon from its nest in order to collect water. To do so, they offered the dragon a daily human sacrifice. The victim of the day was chosen by drawing lots. Eventually the "winner" of this lottery happened to be the local princess. The local Monarch is occasionally depicted begging for her life with no result. She is offered to the dragon but at this point a travelling George arrives. He faces the dragon, slays it and saves the princess. The grateful citizens then abandon their ancestral Paganism and convert to Christianity.


Saint George versus the dragon, Gustave Moreau, ca 1880. This small one has the look of a griffin or a wyvern.The account used to be considered factual but this belief has been progressively abandoned. On the other hand few doubt it contains religious symbolism but various interpretations have been suggested. George can be seen as representing Christianity. In both the Christianised Physiologus and the bestiaries of the 9th through 13th centuries, the dragon is a consistent symbol of Satan. Similarly, in traditional Judaic and early Christian allegory and exegesis, both the serpent (with the vast serpent being a dragon) and leviathan represent Satan. George's victory over the dragon, therefore, has been read allegorically as the victory of Christianity (riding the white horse of the Church Universal) over Satan. Indeed, as late as the 17th century, Edmund Spenser would use the story of George in that manner.

However, secular historians consider the roots of the story to be older than Christianity. They note that the origin of the saint is said to be partly from Cappadocia in Asia Minor, and that Asia Minor was among the earliest regions to adopt the popular veneration of the saint. The region had long venerated other religious figures. These historians deem it likely that certain elements of their ancient worship could have passed to their Christian successors. Notable among these ancient deities was Sabazios, the Sky Father of the Phrygians and known as Sabazius to the Romans. This god was traditionally depicted riding on horseback. The iconic image of St George on horseback trampling the serpent-dragon beneath him is considered to be similar to these pre-Christian representations of Sabazios. This myth in turn may derive from an earlier Hittite myth concerning the battle between the Storm God Tarhun and the dragon Illuyankas. The story also has counterparts in other Indo-European mythologies: The slaying of the serpent Vritra by Indra in Vedic religion, the battle between Thor and Jörmungandr in the Germanic story of Ragnarok, and the Greek account of the defeat of the Titan Typhon by Zeus.

The tale of George and the Dragon is also believed among secular historians to share a common theme with the Greek myth of Ethiopian princess Andromeda and her saviour and later husband Perseus, slayer of the gorgon Medusa. According to this myth, Perseus beheaded Medusa and George his Dragon in a shared theme of decapitation. Perseus' meeting with Andromeda was placed in her native Ethiopia. In several versions, George meets his Dragon in Libya (North Africa west of Egypt). Both locales can be interpreted to represent distant chthonic kingdoms of magic. The saving of the king's daughter is another shared theme as is the reward-bargain exacted by the respective hero of the stories: Possession of the princess for Perseus and the mass baptism of the king's subjects for George.

Another idea is that Saint George is an alternative manifestation of St Michael, the archangel and captain of the heavenly host.

Saint George's history could be considered an example of Princess and dragon Fairy tales.


Later depictions and occurrences
In any case, it was through this legend that George would reach his greatest popularity. During the early 2nd millennium and long after his death, George came to be seen as the original "knight in shining armour" (and still on horseback), thus serving as an idealised model of chivalry. And it was also during this time that George would come to be depicted in works of literature, mostly medieval romances.


Coat of Arms of MoscowJacobus de Voragine (ca 1230–13 July 1298), Archbishop of Genoa authored Legenda Sanctorum (Readings or Legends of the Saints), a collection of legends concerning saints. The book came to be known as Legenda Aurea (Golden Legends) for its worth in the eyes of 13th century readers. Its 177 chapters (182 in other editions) are considered today unreliable as historical sources but significant as literary works. The story of Saint George was prominent among them. This early written account is considered to have influenced later depictions of the saint in Western European literature and art.

King Edward III of England (reigned 1327–1377) was known for promoting the codes of knighthood and in 1348 founded the Order of the Garter. During his reign, George came to be recognised as the patron saint of England. On the Iberian peninsula, George also came to be considered as patron to the Crown of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia and Majorca; Catalan: Sant Jordi) and Portugal (Portuguese language: São Jorge) during their struggles against Castile. Their previous patron Saint James the Great was considered more strongly connected to Castile. Already connected in accepting George as their patron saint, in 1386 England and Portugal agreed to an Anglo-Portuguese Alliance. Today this treaty between the United Kingdom and Portugal is still in force.

Saint George is a patron Saint of Georgia. The popular saint would also come to be honored as patron to a number of other countries, cities and causes. The latter vary from archers and Scouts to skin diseases and herpes.

In 1969, Saint George's feast day was reduced to an optional memorial in the Roman Catholic calendar, and the solemnity of his commemoration depends on purely local observance. He is however still honoured as a saint of major importance by Eastern Orthodoxy. His feast date, April 23, is the Day of Aragon (Spain) and is also holiday in Catalonia (Spain) where it is traditional to give a rose and a book to the loved one. This, together with the anniversary of the deaths, in 1616, of Cervantes and Shakespeare has led UNESCO to declare April 23 as World Book and Copyright Day.

St George's Day is also celebrated with parades in those countries of which he is the patron saint.


Colours
The "Colours of Saint George" (more commonly called St George's Cross) is a white flag with a red cross, frequently borne by entities over which he is patron (e.g. England, Georgia, Liguria etc).

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

The name George has its origin in ancient Greek, meaning something like "farmer, man from the country." The name is a derivation of the Greek male name Geôrgios (Γεώργιος), which developed out of geô (=earth), and ergo (=to work).

It remains a popular name, and has many variations.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

You know i should stop posting all this Greek history and culture related threads because Eton will fell his inferiority complex again and post something idiotic about Greeks...again :lol: :lol:

[bob.appleyard]

Quote: "In the 8th century, nearly all the Iberian peninsula, which had been under Visigothic rule, was quickly conquered (from 711), by Muslims (the Moors), who had crossed over from North Africa, as part of the expansion of the Umayyad empire. Only three small counties in the north kept their independence: Asturias, Navarra and Aragon, which eventually became kingdoms.

I have to tell you, the Visigoths weren't Christian.

Quote: Listen,Eton or whetever the hell your mommy call you, Europe was and is the birthplace of the White Men.The savage ,barbarian Moorish have no f***ing bussines to invete to Spain.

Ah, all makes sense now. This isn't about Islam vs. Christianity. It's good ol' racism. Those Visigoths had no f***ing business there either. Or were they allowed to conquer it because they were white?

Know what the Convivencia was? No? Look it up. Savage, barbarian moors indeed! You are perfectly justified in your antipathy towards Turks, considering recent Greek history. But your extrapolation that Moors = Muslims = infidels = barbarians = savages = EVIL is lunacy.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

bob.appleyard wrote: Quote: "In the 8th century, nearly all the Iberian peninsula, which had been under Visigothic rule, was quickly conquered (from 711), by Muslims (the Moors), who had crossed over from North Africa, as part of the expansion of the Umayyad empire. Only three small counties in the north kept their independence: Asturias, Navarra and Aragon, which eventually became kingdoms.

I have to tell you, the Visigoths weren't Christian.

Quote: Listen,Eton or whetever the hell your mommy call you, Europe was and is the birthplace of the White Men.The savage ,barbarian Moorish have no f***ing bussines to invete to Spain.

Ah, all makes sense now. This isn't about Islam vs. Christianity. It's good ol' racism. Those Visigoths had no f***ing business there either. Or were they allowed to conquer it because they were white?

Know what the Convivencia was? No? Look it up. Savage, barbarian moors indeed! You are perfectly justified in your antipathy towards Turks, considering recent Greek history. But your extrapolation that Moors = Muslims = infidels = barbarians = savages = EVIL is lunacy. Most of the historical figures here were White Christians who defend their country.DEFEND THEIR HOMELAND.Is that racism to you? :roll:

[bob.appleyard]

Well, the Visigoths certainly weren't. And in what way did Richard the Lionheart "protect the homeland"?

The urge to protect oneself or one's country is not racist. But it very often leads to racism. As you have illustrated.

[antonio62]

Achilles The Myrmidon wrote: Eton wrote: Thanks for reiterating my point that Moorish Spain was light years ahead of the anti-semitic hellhole that followed their expulsion. Nice try.What i prove was the Spain was Christians land and that the muslims were the invaders...

Well why did the Crusaders have the right to invade the ME or was it all ok because the Pope said so. Did the Greeks have the right to invade Persia. Rome to invade Gaul. No they didn't but hey they did it anyway. All through history people have been invading other lands. I would still rather live under the Moors than the ''Spanish'' or any other Christian king for that matter.

[Eton]

Achilles The Myrmidon wrote: Eton wrote: The Moors never forced christians to convert to Islam, they were very respectful of other religions.
In anycase you are going into tricky territory because in my opinion Moorish influence lasted for 800 years and after that amount of time they were no longer invaders, they were born and raised there several generations over.
The Visigoths were invaders originally but now we call the Spanish.
How long do a people have to live in a territory before they can call it home? Listen,Eton or whetever the hell your mommy call you, Europe was and is the birthplace of the White Men.The savage ,barbarian Moorish have no f***ing bussines to invete to Spain.

If you like muslims so much maybe you should go and immigrand in a muslim country.They will treat you and your ass just the way you like it.And maybe when you and Hassan or Mohhament or whatever the hell your lovebird name will be live happy in a muslim country you would stop coming here and post any idiotic idea your litlle brain produce...

The truth wins out in the end. Prejudices are an ugly thing, and that is why you have just shot yourself in the foot. If you want to have a serious discussion about Arab culture in Spain then get back to me but leave the racism at the door.