Political Crossfire Forums

[HarmonyOnTheRight]

I think back to when I was 17 and at college, I was a bit like David Davis. Came from a broken family but believed in my nation and conservative instincts and faught the Tory corner in its darkest day during 1995-1997.

I was rightwing then and am comfortably rightwing on economics, EU and a tranche of policy issues - though I am radical if anything.

I have a certain resonance with some of the principles of Cornerstone Group but who the hell do they think they are in trying to paint a moral picture of how Britain should be and debase leadership contenders?

When the Church of England, notably the Tory Party at pray, isn't anywhere near as unforgiving as the Edward Leigh's of this world, what gives Cornerstone such credence.

I'm a broadchurch Tory but these people continue to alienate so much of Britain. They won't tolerate anyone that doesnt see life but their way. Goodness me, we've found the Conservative Trade Unionist Movement

[Lord Hargreaves]

like what in particular? I don't see anything wrong with what they're saying

[Snow Patrol]

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: Goodness me, we've found the Conservative Trade Unionist Movement
Good, they keep the Torys somewhat in touch with their roots and what they represent, Labour should follow suit and actually listen to the trade unionists more than they currently do. I'm not saying both parties should follow the wishes of these sorts of groups, but they should at least take them more into account.

There is in all probability few current politicians in Britain i disagree with more than those that those Torys that make up the Cornerstone group, but voters should have a proper choice when they vote and 3 centreist partys is not a choice.

[Darkyin]

Quote: like what in particular? I don't see anything wrong with what they're saying
Proof, if any where needed, that they should be treated like punts (moved along quickly with very long sticks).

[Lord Hargreaves]

Darkyin wrote: Quote: like what in particular? I don't see anything wrong with what they're saying
Proof, if any where needed, that they should be treated like punts (moved along quickly with very long sticks).

what an intelligent response :roll:

Anyway my question was aimed at a fellow Tory, asking him why he didn't like the group - its bloody obvious non-conservatives aren't going to like what they say :lol:

[HarmonyOnTheRight]

I don't like the group because I think who the hell they think they are to dictate the lifestyle choices of people. They may have an opinion, and tenets of it I share, but what makes them think they are powerborkers, that they matter, they are such fantastic morally self-righteous people? And let's be honest as far as I remember Julian Brazier MP, a devout Catholic killed someone in a car accident. He expected forgiveness

Quite frankly, life is a lot more complicated than some Tory moralists like to paint it. Moralising about things is only a half-answer, it doesn't save those in the long-term who have had the thin edge of the wedge, and I have seen it for my self in my own family and in the inner city.

Political solutions must penetrate underneath the skin- unless youn understand, rather than just listen, you won't find solution. And, yes, I had a brief flirtation with evangelism, and thank God, I left it behind

[Lord Hargreaves]

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: I don't like the group because I think who the hell they think they are to dictate the lifestyle choices of people. They may have an opinion, and tenets of it I share, but what makes them think they are powerborkers, that they matter, they are such fantastic morally self-righteous people? And let's be honest as far as I remember Julian Brazier MP, a devout Catholic killed someone in a car accident. He expected forgiveness

Quite frankly, life is a lot more complicated than some Tory moralists like to paint it. Moralising about things is only a half-answer, it doesn't save those in the long-term who have had the thin edge of the wedge, and I have seen it for my self in my own family and in the inner city.

Political solutions must penetrate underneath the skin- unless youn understand, rather than just listen, you won't find solution. And, yes, I had a brief flirtation with evangelism, and thank God, I left it behind

who is "dictating the lifestyle choices of people"? No one is doing any "dictating" here, its merely trying to explain how encouraging particular styles of living can reduce the need for welfare, and thus help people help themselves.

You make a lot of the typical leftist mistakes. Firstly, with todays broken society the moral message needs to be given, even if those who are giving it are "less than perfect" themselves. Is it really the case that the truth spoken by a sometimes liar is worse than the truth not getting out at all?

If you'd stop trying to underssssssssssssssssstaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand people, by which you mean their excuses legitimacy - and more time encouraging what you know is best, you might stand a chance of helping someone rather than just making them feel good

What do you mean by evangelicalism? And why did you leave it behind? fear it was too juuuuuuudgemeeeeeeeental?

i'm sorry but "moderates" really annoy me :lol:

[HarmonyOnTheRight]

Annoy you we may, but frankly, you can continue in your narrow rut of life as you wish.

A broken society my dear friend is not cured with a little pre-leadership moralising from Dr Fox. His concerns as genuine as they are did not seem to resonate for the 8 years he has been a frontbencher.

For those of us who have been at the front line of elective politics, and I was elected in a Labour safe seat in my area 3 times (for the period of being 21-25), you learn how to convince and this realm we live in today has no ideology.

We can not reinvent it Hargreaves. But, people like you are rarely at the end of the electorate.

My ex-wife was an Evangelical Christian. It was a truly horrid experience. Almost jihad and Evangelicals are by far the worst Christians

[Lord Hargreaves]

Well it appears that with David Cameron cruising to victory the party will be taking a more moderate direction, and us "moralising" lot will take a back seat. If thats where we're headed, well then so be it, lets make the most of it. For the first time in years I am starting to see an energised party with the belief it can win, and I want to be part of it.

All I ask is for substance along with the image. You may think policy isn't that important, but it is, and without something behind the flashing lights and cheesy grins you will find we won't do as well as we could have

[HarmonyOnTheRight]

On the contrary Hargreaves, Cameron has posted his policies quite clearly . . . I think tax breaks for married couples, electing our local polide commanders, repatriating EU powers over social and employment policy, as well as abolishing Labour's policy to scrap special needs schools are a good start

[Lord Hargreaves]

Cameron has also said that "tax cuts have to be balanced against the need to fund public services" and that the Tories would only regain power if they "built on the Blairite political revolution"

Knowing your, shall we say, "pragmatic" bent toward politics, you may agree with this. But this isn't what people like me want to hear, and there are lots of us out here in the party.

[HarmonyOnTheRight]

I don't want any continuation of any alleged Blairite revolution - after all what does Blairism represent after 8 years? Absolutely nothing, pure vacuum.

I hasten to add though that Cameron's pledging to reinstate tax breaks for the married, the reintro of GM schools, repatriation of EU policy over social and employment issues and all of the above I mentioned - all of which Blair has abolished or given away.

[Lord Hargreaves]

well thats a good start, nothing more.

[The Councillor]

Better start than Messrs Clarke, Fox and Davis . . . . .

[Lord Hargreaves]

The Councillor wrote: Better start than Messrs Clarke, Fox and Davis . . . . .

Liam Fox had a whole ream of policies, thats why I wanted him to be leader - he wasn't afraid to tackle issues like abortion, mental health, domestic violence, and our broken society. He promised action on Europe, to make sure conservatives were saying the same things in Brussels as they were at home about the EU. He wanted a prosperity agenda of tax cuts and reduced regulation. He was also the guy who suggested having the Union Jack on public schools, if you remember. To say Fox didn't have good ideas is absolute rubbish.

Clarke was the safe option, by most accounts. What attracted many Tories to him was that he wouldn't do that much in power, he wouldn't "scare" the public with overly "right wing" policies. His whole campaign focused on the fact that he was a bloke and someone the public might like to go down the pub with - and that wasn't enough to lead the nation.

As with David Davis - he will be coming out with tax policies in the near future. I agree he hasn't said much, but he will be - and he will be making an issue of the fact that he is coming out with policies to improve the nation while Cameron is telling black radio listeners to "keep it real"

[HarmonyOnTheRight]

Don't remember suggesting that Fox had no policies so you must be confused there Im afraid and there we are no surprise, Davis is your man now!

Being Europescpetic, abortion reduction, tax cuts, flying the flag from public buildings is great. I support all of them, but what message don't you get? None of those issues resonates much. They don't deliver good schooling, they don't provide solutions to crime and they don't make my hospital provide on need.

You may recall, or as the right always do, that in 2005 General Election, we did all of the above messages and the result??????????

You maybe happy having a party that appeals to yourself, but I think we need one that appeals to the nation. If we don't govern and carry a broad section of the country, we don't need to exist. We dont have a purpose.

The country knows where we stand on all of the above you stated and simply wasn't good enough for them.

If your sheer political opinion is based purely nostalgic overtures to an imperial Britain past and just loving talk about culture without accepting that is a living thing, then join National Heritage; if you sole purpose is being a moralist join the Catholic Church; if you feeling is kick out all immigrants and repatriate the blacks join the BNP.

We've moved on from this

[JDnCoke]

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: Don't remember suggesting that Fox had no policies so you must be confused there Im afraid and there we are no surprise, Davis is your man now!

Being Europescpetic, abortion reduction, tax cuts, flying the flag from public buildings is great. I support all of them, but what message don't you get? None of those issues resonates much. They don't deliver good schooling, they don't provide solutions to crime and they don't make my hospital provide on need.

You may recall, or as the right always do, that in 2005 General Election, we did all of the above messages and the result??????????

You maybe happy having a party that appeals to yourself, but I think we need one that appeals to the nation. If we don't govern and carry a broad section of the country, we don't need to exist. We dont have a purpose.

The country knows where we stand on all of the above you stated and simply wasn't good enough for them.

If your sheer political opinion is based purely nostalgic overtures to an imperial Britain past and just loving talk about culture without accepting that is a living thing, then join National Heritage; if you sole purpose is being a moralist join the Catholic Church; if you feeling is kick out all immigrants and repatriate the blacks join the BNP.

We've moved on from this

:clap:

At least you're one of the few Conservatives that aren't blind.

[Lord Hargreaves]

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: Don't remember suggesting that Fox had no policies so you must be confused there Im afraid

I actually quoted Councillor and what i infered he was saying.

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote:
and there we are no surprise, Davis is your man now!

I'm not a "Davis man", I was merely saying Cameron needs tough policies too

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: Being Europescpetic, abortion reduction, tax cuts, flying the flag from public buildings is great. I support all of them, but what message don't you get? None of those issues resonates much. They don't deliver good schooling, they don't provide solutions to crime and they don't make my hospital provide on need.

Is there not a hypocrisy in believing in things but not being willing to recommend them to the electorate? And at any rate, I don't see why schools and crime and health are being excluded merely because other policies are being raised also

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: You may recall, or as the right always do, that in 2005 General Election, we did all of the above messages and the result??????????

I believe we gained seats and votes on one of the worst manifestos ever, merely because immigration became an issue. Our whole campaign was based on that one issue and we gained, so how does that convince you it needs to be dropped?

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: You maybe happy having a party that appeals to yourself, but I think we need one that appeals to the nation. If we don't govern and carry a broad section of the country, we don't need to exist. We dont have a purpose.

Of course I agree, I just don't see why abandoning our principles is the way to achieve it. Yes you are right, we can no longer afford to be a partly merely of tax and europe - but this doesn't mean we have to water down these polices. We need more fresh ideas on more areas.

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: The country knows where we stand on all of the above you stated and simply wasn't good enough for them.
I don't think they do, to be honest. People don't really know where we stand on anything, aside from being upper-class toffs or big businessmen - isn't that right, Cameron and Clarke? Humble scottish doctors and council estate boys aren't good enough.

HarmonyOnTheRight wrote: If your sheer political opinion is based purely nostalgic overtures to an imperial Britain past and just loving talk about culture without accepting that is a living thing, then join National Heritage; if you sole purpose is being a moralist join the Catholic Church; if you feeling is kick out all immigrants and repatriate the blacks join the BNP.

We've moved on from this

Well. You've been reading The Guardian too much.

Pride in Britain, addressing the broken society, and a prosperity agenda is what Britain needs, so that must be what be propose - or have i missed something here? Protecting unborn life and failing to see being juuuuuudgemeeeeeeeeental as a THE cardinal sin is hardly "moralising" either, and if it is, so are most Britons too. And whats with the racist card? protecting our borders is not racist, it is a demand that people respect our law and sovereighty

But hey, you got clapped by a leftist, the guys that matter, so why do you care?

[Snow Patrol]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: But hey, you got clapped by a leftist, the guys that matter
:clap:

[Lord Hargreaves]

Thats quite witty for a socialist :lol: