Political Crossfire Forums

[Black]

John wrote:


Atonement for sin is ONLY possible with blood.


Leviticus 17
11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'


Out of context. Lev 17 is about why you can not EAT the blood.

Lev 17 does not say that blood sacrifices are the ONLY way to be atoned.

I think someone wrote a rather long discussion about this very point above.

Isaiah 55 'freely'

means no cost.

Consider reading the longer post about Lev 17 above by that nice fellow, 'Black'.

He seems like a nice guy.

[Black]

cap'n queasy wrote: Black, I think your exgesis leaves a bit to be desired.


Quote: Heb 9:26 -

exegesis??? What's that, a new kind of Ford? Where can I get one??

The quotes of Hebrews is saying that INSTEAD of sacrifices for sin, Jesus taught (what? to forgive others) and he gave up his life for his teachings to forgive others. Hebrews, your quote itself says God did not want sacrifices. Rather, Jesus, in showing the way, showing that we do not need sacrifices, rather, a heartfelt repentance (= works = forgiving others = going back to God) that was good enough.

IN SHORT:

God doesn't want sacrifices (without sincerity).

Jesus taught you don't need sacrifices for atonement, [you can forgive others]

To give / teach that Salvation (forgive others to be forgiven) Jesus gave up his life.

It's not the murder of Jesus that did the trick, rather, Jesus died giving us his formula: Forgive others.

Ironically, only Jews formalise this every year at Kol Nidre. Ironic.

(Kol Nidre = 'All the Vows' a public announcement that all vows are forgiven, all debts are forgiven. Just as Jesus learned from Hillel. Good Jesus, he with others, railed against Shamai during the brief reign of conservative Shammai - which happened to be during Jesus' life.

The House of Hillel came back to power, later.

Ironically, Orthodox Jews today are hand in hand with the real Jesus!

(Jesus never wanted to be thought of as a God, he spent his whole ministry trying to get that point across, every time the notion of 'Messiah' [='Christ'] came up, Jesus makes the point to call himself SON of God. Which is to say, NOT God. The only time he doesn't is when the people around him CLEARLY DO NOT BELIEVE he is God. No need to at that point.)

The Jewish scriptures, nor Jesus, ever drop the sacrifice laws, rather, they say that you don't need them as an absolute condition to be forgiven.

Try to imagine scoring a goal on the ice with only 4 players. Your star player, Bob TEMPLE, is in the penalty box because of team sins. It's STILL POSSIBLE to score a goal, only a bit harder.

It's POSSIBLE to sincerely repent, even if you don't see an animal die in front of you as an example, it's possible. Just a tad harder.

If you are not sincere, then there aint no point in bringing the sacrifice, you see?

You say to the animal, 'You should have been me!' and lean on it as it dies.



Of course, I noticed you didn't quote Jesus on the subject. THe book of Hebrews isn't one of the Gospels, you know, those books where Jesus walked on the earth and gave his salvation formula?

Why is it, despite John 3:16 - which says you must believe in Jesus, Christians don't quote Jesus on how to be forgiven?

Let me do it for you:

Mat 6:
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' ...

Luke 6
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat 18:
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Mat 18 (same chapter)
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'
34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Mark 11:
25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins.

Luke 1:77
to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,

Luke 7:47
Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48: Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."


How many times does Jesus say you need blood to be forgiven: Zero (except he died teaching you don't need blood, but that was a 'sacrifice' of a different sort, not a 'sin atonement' sacrifice brought by a repentant sinner).

How many times does Jesus say you must forgive to be forgiven, and if you don't, you won't be forgiven? Too many times to count.

He says it flat out, gives examples, all in context.

Ironically, Mr. Christ knew what a t'nai Koffel was, used it in his formula, and Christians today don't even accept the formula to begin with.

If I went into a church and said, 'If you forgive others, God will forgive you.' they won't accept that. I'd be told that having mercy on others, forgiving them isn't good enough.

That means they don't believe Jesus when he said it.

How many times does Jesus say, or words to the effect,

'You must believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice, to be forgiven.'


Zero.

(He does say he gave his blood for teaching salvation, but to find out what that was, you have to at least read what he says: Forgive others to be forgiven. That's the only formula Jesus ever gave.

And if you think about it, it doesn't make sense what modern Christians say.

Look at it this way:

You are a Father. Your children do wrong, they don't do what you say.

1. You:

A: Throw them into Nazi style ovens.

or

B: You give them another chance.


2. You want:


A: For them to try, try, and try again. Even the smallest try brings tears of joy to your eyes, they are turning back to you.

or

B: You will ONLY forgive them if they say all your commands are 'fulfilled' and no longer in force, and they MUST TORTURE YOU TO DEATH.


Hmmmm.... Do I want my kids to try to do what I say, at least start, at least reach like that painting by Michael Angelo where the man is lifting up his finger to God's finger

or,

I want them to torture me to death and say that everything I ever told them to do is off point...


tough one...

[John]

Black wrote: John wrote:


Atonement for sin is ONLY possible with blood.


Leviticus 17
11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'


Out of context. Lev 17 is about why you can not EAT the blood.

Lev 17 does not say that blood sacrifices are the ONLY way to be atoned.

I think someone wrote a rather long discussion about this very point above.

Isaiah 55 'freely'

means no cost.

Consider reading the longer post about Lev 17 above by that nice fellow, 'Black'.

He seems like a nice guy.

Sure it does.. Lev 16 goes into a detailed explanation of the process.

You do understand the difference between atonement and a sin offering right? It isn't the same thing.

It's kinda like the difference between the atonement that Jesus paid with His blood for the whole world and the repentance of sin that a Christian continues to do after He or she has accepted the atonement. The prayer of repentance doesn't atone for ones sin (only the blood can do that), what it does is bring one back into a proper relationship with the Lord.

A sin offering doesn’t wash away or cover sin….only the atonement can do that…and it requires blood. The blood of animals only temporary covered the sin until the next year…the blood of Messiah permanently washed away all sin future and past of all those who accept Him as their Salvation.

[John]

Quote: The quotes of Hebrews is saying that INSTEAD of sacrifices for sin, Jesus taught (what? to forgive others) and he gave up his life for his teachings to forgive others. Hebrews, your quote itself says God did not want sacrifices. Rather, Jesus, in showing the way, showing that we do not need sacrifices, rather, a heartfelt repentance (= works = forgiving others = going back to God) that was good enough.

Actually I believe that He did teach that His death and the spilling of His blood was necessary to propitiate for our sin.

Let's take a look at the famous chapter 3 from the Gospel of John:

John 3
11"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.




Do you question what Jesus meant by saying that he had to be "lifted up"?




John 12
27 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.

28 "Father, glorify Your name " Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."

29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."

30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.

31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.





And before His hour came He made Himself perfectly clear:


Matthew 26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."

27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;

28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.



Look Black, I know you mean well. But the truth is that we can't truly forgive others without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And we couldn't ever receive the Holy Spirit if Jesus didn't spill His blood in order to propitiate for our sin.

[cap'n queasy]

Black wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Black, I think your exgesis leaves a bit to be desired.


Quote: Heb 9:26 -

exegesis??? What's that, a new kind of Ford? Where can I get one??

The quotes of Hebrews is saying that INSTEAD of sacrifices for sin, Jesus taught (what? to forgive others) and he gave up his life for his teachings to forgive others. Hebrews, your quote itself says God did not want sacrifices. Rather, Jesus, in showing the way, showing that we do not need sacrifices, rather, a heartfelt repentance (= works = forgiving others = going back to God) that was good enough.

IN SHORT:

God doesn't want sacrifices (without sincerity).

Jesus taught you don't need sacrifices for atonement, [you can forgive others]

To give / teach that Salvation (forgive others to be forgiven) Jesus gave up his life.

It's not the murder of Jesus that did the trick, rather, Jesus died giving us his formula: Forgive others.

Ironically, only Jews formalise this every year at Kol Nidre. Ironic.

(Kol Nidre = 'All the Vows' a public announcement that all vows are forgiven, all debts are forgiven. Just as Jesus learned from Hillel. Good Jesus, he with others, railed against Shamai during the brief reign of conservative Shammai - which happened to be during Jesus' life.

The House of Hillel came back to power, later.

Ironically, Orthodox Jews today are hand in hand with the real Jesus!

(Jesus never wanted to be thought of as a God, he spent his whole ministry trying to get that point across, every time the notion of 'Messiah' [='Christ'] came up, Jesus makes the point to call himself SON of God. Which is to say, NOT God. The only time he doesn't is when the people around him CLEARLY DO NOT BELIEVE he is God. No need to at that point.)

The Jewish scriptures, nor Jesus, ever drop the sacrifice laws, rather, they say that you don't need them as an absolute condition to be forgiven.

Try to imagine scoring a goal on the ice with only 4 players. Your star player, Bob TEMPLE, is in the penalty box because of team sins. It's STILL POSSIBLE to score a goal, only a bit harder.

It's POSSIBLE to sincerely repent, even if you don't see an animal die in front of you as an example, it's possible. Just a tad harder.

If you are not sincere, then there aint no point in bringing the sacrifice, you see?

You say to the animal, 'You should have been me!' and lean on it as it dies.



Of course, I noticed you didn't quote Jesus on the subject. THe book of Hebrews isn't one of the Gospels, you know, those books where Jesus walked on the earth and gave his salvation formula?

Why is it, despite John 3:16 - which says you must believe in Jesus, Christians don't quote Jesus on how to be forgiven?

Let me do it for you:

Mat 6:
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' ...

Luke 6
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat 18:
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Mat 18 (same chapter)
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'
34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Mark 11:
25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins.

Luke 1:77
to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,

Luke 7:47
Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48: Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."


How many times does Jesus say you need blood to be forgiven: Zero (except he died teaching you don't need blood, but that was a 'sacrifice' of a different sort, not a 'sin atonement' sacrifice brought by a repentant sinner).

How many times does Jesus say you must forgive to be forgiven, and if you don't, you won't be forgiven? Too many times to count.

He says it flat out, gives examples, all in context.

Ironically, Mr. Christ knew what a t'nai Koffel was, used it in his formula, and Christians today don't even accept the formula to begin with.

If I went into a church and said, 'If you forgive others, God will forgive you.' they won't accept that. I'd be told that having mercy on others, forgiving them isn't good enough.

That means they don't believe Jesus when he said it.

How many times does Jesus say, or words to the effect,

'You must believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice, to be forgiven.'


Zero.

(He does say he gave his blood for teaching salvation, but to find out what that was, you have to at least read what he says: Forgive others to be forgiven. That's the only formula Jesus ever gave.

And if you think about it, it doesn't make sense what modern Christians say.

Look at it this way:

You are a Father. Your children do wrong, they don't do what you say.

1. You:

A: Throw them into Nazi style ovens.

or

B: You give them another chance.


2. You want:


A: For them to try, try, and try again. Even the smallest try brings tears of joy to your eyes, they are turning back to you.

or

B: You will ONLY forgive them if they say all your commands are 'fulfilled' and no longer in force, and they MUST TORTURE YOU TO DEATH.


Hmmmm.... Do I want my kids to try to do what I say, at least start, at least reach like that painting by Michael Angelo where the man is lifting up his finger to God's finger

or,

I want them to torture me to death and say that everything I ever told them to do is off point...


tough one...

I think you should know forgiving people is not what saves you.

It's is God's Grace (unmerited favor) that saves you.

You should forgive only because how can one expect forgiveness and not give forgiveness. Forgiving people their tresspasses has no salvatory effect, it's just that it is hypocritical to expect forgiveness when you yourself do not forgive.

And, boy, we really need forgiveness. We are sinners.

It is strictly up to God whether He decides to forgive our sins or not.
He owes us nothing (the wages of sin are death, so perhaps it is not a good idea to demand a wage for our actions whether it is for sacrifice or forgiveness) and we owe Him everything.

Everything.

God does not want sacrifices anymore because there is no reason for them.

He made the ultimate sacrifice, on our behalf.

At least that's the way I look at it.

:-D

[Mailech]

John wrote: You have no high priest to offer the blood upon the Mercy seat for you.

Well, actually you do..but you need to accept Him.

Now, now John, are you trying to tell me that jesus is the High Priest and the King Messiah, that is a no-no. The Hashmonians tried that, but they got in trouble for it.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: You have no high priest to offer the blood upon the Mercy seat for you.

Well, actually you do..but you need to accept Him.

Now, now John, are you trying to tell me that Jesus is the High Priest and the King Messiah, that is a no-no. The Hashmonians tried that, but they got in trouble for it.

Of course they got in trouble. Uzziah got in trouble too. It's a position clearly reserved for Messiah.

Yes that is exactly what I'm telling you. Jesus the Messiah is both King AND High Priest.

Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: You have no high priest to offer the blood upon the Mercy seat for you.

Well, actually you do..but you need to accept Him.

Now, now John, are you trying to tell me that Jesus is the High Priest and the King Messiah, that is a no-no. The Hashmonians tried that, but they got in trouble for it.

Of course they got in trouble. Uzziah got in trouble too. It's a position clearly reserved for Messiah.

Yes that is exactly what I'm telling you. Jesus the Messiah is both King AND High Priest.

Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

Messiah, King, and ..... god. Whooopeee, we got trinity. Again.

Coincidence? I think not. :)

[John]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: You have no high priest to offer the blood upon the Mercy seat for you.

Well, actually you do..but you need to accept Him.

Now, now John, are you trying to tell me that Jesus is the High Priest and the King Messiah, that is a no-no. The Hashmonians tried that, but they got in trouble for it.

Of course they got in trouble. Uzziah got in trouble too. It's a position clearly reserved for Messiah.

Yes that is exactly what I'm telling you. Jesus the Messiah is both King AND High Priest.

Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

Messiah, King, and ..... god. Whooopeee, we got trinity. Again.

Coincidence? I think not. :)

Interesting observation Duchi.

Although it seems obvious to me that God would be the ultimate King/Priest/Messiah.

:-D

[Duchifas]

Sure. After all, if god can be one person, why can't he be three? The more the merrier. :)

[John]

Duchifas wrote: Sure. After all, if god can be one person, why can't he be three? The more the merrier. :)

Nope. You're missing it again.


Object = Length, height, width.

The object is one but is made up of three distinct characteristics. It's not three objects.


And NO I’m not saying God is an object. Just showing you how you’re missing the concept.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Although it seems obvious to me that God would be the ultimate King/Priest/Messiah.

:-D

Interesting, while of course G-d is the ultimate King, how would it make sense for Him to be the High Priest. That would mean that G-d is serving Himself. G-d does not need to serve Himself, we need to serve Him. As for G-d being the Messiah, well I can't see anyone pouring any oil on G-d's non-existent head.

[Duchifas]

Object != length, height, width.

Just like John != Gender: Gender:Male, Joined: 02 Jun 2004, Posts: 11430, Location: Houston, Country: USA

Think about it.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

I am not suprised that I missed it, nor am I supprised that you found it.

You can read an Spiderman comic book and find 20 prophecies that refer to Jesus.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

I am not suprised that I missed it, nor am I supprised that you found it.

You can read an Spiderman comic book and find 20 prophecies that refer to Jesus.


I can? :?

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

I am not suprised that I missed it, nor am I supprised that you found it.

You can read an Spiderman comic book and find 20 prophecies that refer to Jesus.


I can? :?

I have faith in you John. :lol:

Still my favorite prophesies are the ones that Duchfas had about the chicken for capparos.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: Object != length, height, width.

Just like John != Gender: Gender:Male, Joined: 02 Jun 2004, Posts: 11430, Location: Houston, Country: USA

Think about it.

Apples and oranges. Length, height, & width are nessesary for the existance of the object. But you couldn'y really call them "parts".

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

I am not suprised that I missed it, nor am I supprised that you found it.

You can read an Spiderman comic book and find 20 prophecies that refer to Jesus.


I can? :?

I have faith in you John. :lol:

Still my favorite prophesies are the ones that Duchfas had about the chicken for capparos.

It was the kind of logic that athiests use to try and discredit the Bible.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

I am not suprised that I missed it, nor am I supprised that you found it.

You can read an Spiderman comic book and find 20 prophecies that refer to Jesus.


I can? :?

I have faith in you John. :lol:

Still my favorite prophesies are the ones that Duchfas had about the chicken for capparos.

It was the kind of logic that athiests use to try and discredit the Bible.

No it was the kind of logic that you use to show that Jesus is in the Tanach.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Messiah taking the role of High Priest is a theme of the OT. I'm surprised you've missed it.

I am not suprised that I missed it, nor am I supprised that you found it.

You can read an Spiderman comic book and find 20 prophecies that refer to Jesus.


I can? :?

I have faith in you John. :lol:

Still my favorite prophesies are the ones that Duchfas had about the chicken for capparos.

It was the kind of logic that athiests use to try and discredit the Bible.

No it was the kind of logic that you use to show that Jesus is in the Tanach.

Not at all. Have you examined the facts?