Political Crossfire Forums

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: In fact, that's why for different sins in the Torah there are different punishments.

What's the punishment for forgetting the Sabbath years and Jubilees?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: Sin leads to death..
And death leads to life.

It's all a Great Circle, John, whether you want to admit it or not.

The question is, do you want to liberate yourself from this Circle of Necessity? Or do you just want to keep spinning around and around and around upon it ad infinitum for the rest of eternity?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

psholtz wrote: Duchifas wrote: John, your arguments are an exercise in the ridiculous. And I know you are smart enough to recognize just how ridiculous your arguments are. Which is why it baffles me that you continue to advance them, and even more so that you get upset when your arguments are met with sarcasm.

You are telling me that eating a piece of lobster is the same as murder. How do you expect me to react to that? With trustworthy interest?

Heck, I've seen John take it even further, where if you take a bite of lobster, you're just as bad as Adolf Hitler, and you're condemned to the equivalent fate that Hitler is suffering, but (simultaneously) you're not quite as good as Jeffrey Dahlmer, since Dahlmer is on record as having made a last-minute "confession" of Christ shortly before his death, and is therefore in Heaven kickin' it w/ Jesus as we speak...

Sorry to keep bringing this example up, John, but you continue living by it.. :?

You sir are a liar and a deceiver. I've never said any such thing. Not everyone in Hell will have an equivalent fate as not everyone in Heaven will enjoy the same rewards.

And Jeffrey Dahlmer didn't have a last-minute "confession". He spent the last years of his life as a believer. He was even killed in prison while trying to witness to some guy. The guy shoved a broom handle into his brain. At least so I hear. I really don't know. But if Jeffrey truly accepted the Lord as his savior, then he was forgiven. Christianity isn't an elite club...and it isn't up to me to decide who can be forgiven and who can not.

....And I will continue to live by it, sir.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: Oh yeah. In fact, that's why for different sins in the Torah there are different punishments. So when you commit one small sin, you need to bring a sacrifice, while if you commit a big sin, you are put to death. So that assignment of different levels of culpability to different sins would suggest to me.....that committing one sin is the same as committing all others. Yes?

Yes indeed. If I were in a different universe, that is. In a universe where gravity make you fall upward.

Everyone will reap what they sow. Becoming born again doesn't excuse you from the consequences of sin. Sinning in the flesh will result in a consequence in the flesh...there's no way out of that. You pay for every little white lie you tell, whether you notice it or not. Jeffery Dahlmer died with a broom handle sticking out of his eye.

Going to Heaven or not depends on being "born again” (having your name written in the book of Life). Basically being born again means that in the resurrection you will be given a "changed" sinless body.(Yet everyone will be given a new body in the resurrection, except the ones who were not born again will still have a sin nature for all eternity…this sin nature will separate them from God for all eternity AKA HELL) I believe that accepting the Messiah as you Salvation in every way is God's way of showing us that we have to trust and count on Him for everything. That self-righteousness is a lie and can not be accepted by a Holy God.

You asked me if people that are saved / born again continue to sin. The answer is yes...they do. But there is a difference. The person that is born again has come to the realization that he or she can't be righteous on their own accord...BUT that the Messiah can. That IF they trust in the Holy Spirit and have Faith that the Lord will see them through it and mold them into what God wants them to become....then they can not fail because HE can not fail.

The person that is truly born again sees sin for what it really is...NOT just a bunch of rules that God made up to see if we are loyal. But that it is death...it is horrible in every way. The person that is born again HATES sin...as does God.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

So how can you tell if a person who says he is born again is not truly born again?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Duchifas wrote: So how can you tell if a person who says he is born again is not truly born again?

Well, you can't really tell.

You can get a pretty good idea if his life doesn't reflect what he's saying...but it's still a pretty difficult call.

The only thing that you can tell is if you've personally truly been born again. And that's kinda hard to explain too...God changes you and you just know. Basically if you don't KNOW that you've been born again..then you prolly haven't.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: So how can you tell if a person who says he is born again is not truly born again?

Well, you can't really tell.

You can get a pretty good idea if his life doesn't reflect what he's saying...but it's still a pretty difficult call.

The only thing that you can tell is if you've personally truly been born again. And that's kinda hard to explain too...God changes you and you just know. Basically if you don't KNOW that you've been born again..then you prolly haven't.

Well, that's where I see the difficulty. You say that you can tell that you you've been born again, and you can know it in the case of yourself.

But in the case of others, you can get a pretty good idea that he wasn't born again if his life doesn't reflect what he is saying.

Well, why doesn't that apply to yourself then? Meaning, sure you are born again now, and your life reflects it, but how do you know what you will be like in 30 years? You just don't know. You can't tell the future. Only G-d can, not you.

So since you don't know what your own "life will reflect" in the future, even distant future, then you can't REALLY tell that you are born again, can you?

No, you can't. So in reality, when you tell people that you are born again/saved (those are interchangeable, right?), what you are really telling them is "i am born again/saved, provided that at some point in the future I don't experience some serious changes."

And because only G-d knows the future with certainty, only HE can tell whether anyone (including you) is TRULY born again/saved. That means that your last statement is wrong. You can't really tell if you are born again/saved. You can tell it based on what your life is like now, but that's not for certain. Things change. Life changes. You can't predict what will be in 20, 30 years. You might snap.

So are you really sure that you personally are saved? The answer is no. You'd like to think you are. You hope you are. But you don't REALLY know with certainty, unless you are a prophet. And you are not a prophet, are you? You are not like Almar, right?

So you don't know for certain if you are TRULY born again/saved. Isn't that true, John?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: Well, why doesn't that apply to yourself then? Meaning, sure you are born again now, and your life reflects it, but how do you know what you will be like in 30 years? You just don't know. You can't tell the future. Only G-d can, not you.

That's where Faith comes in. The Bibles tell me that if I trust in God, that He will not fail to finish what He started.

You see that's the difference between someone who is truly born again and not...people that fall away from grace and into disbelief were never really saved to begin with. they just had an emotional experience that wasn't real...they were never really "changed" by God. They just played a game for a little while.

Since God does know the future....He doesn't cause someone to be born again who isn't going to be real 30 years from now. So I can tell you with assurance that IF I'm born again now...that I will be in 30 years...and my life will still reflect it. Because God says so....

Jesus said:
John 10
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

30 "I and the Father are one."

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: So you don't know for certain if you are TRULY born again/saved. Isn't that true, John?

Actually I do know for certain. I really don't think it's possible to truly be born again without the person knowing for certain. If they don't "know", then they don't truly believe...if they don't truly believe, then how can you call it faith?

Check this out:
Hebrews
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

15while it is said,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."

16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

18And to whom did He swear (AH)that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?

19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
"AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,"
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For He has said (E)somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

5and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."

6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

7He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Quote: Well, why doesn't that apply to yourself then? Meaning, sure you are born again now, and your life reflects it, but how do you know what you will be like in 30 years? You just don't know. You can't tell the future. Only G-d can, not you.

That's where Faith comes in. The Bibles tell me that if I trust in God, that He will not fail to finish what He started.

Right. So the correct terminology is that you BELIEVE that you are saved, rather than KNOW that you are saved.

Ok, that makes more sense.

Quote: You see that's the difference between someone who is truly born again and not...people that fall away from grace and into disbelief were never really saved to begin with. they just had an emotional experience that wasn't real...they were never really "changed" by God. They just played a game for a little while.

Since God does know the future....He doesn't cause someone to be born again who isn't going to be real 30 years from now. So I can tell you with assurance that IF I'm born again now...that I will be in 30 years...and my life will still reflect it. Because God says so....

Right. You can tell me with assurance (i.e., you KNOW) that if G-d really saved you, then in 30 years you will be good. That's sound reasoning.

BUT, because right now you don't KNOW for sure what will happen in 30 years, then you don't KNOW FOR SURE whether you are really born again. You BELIEVE you are born again. You HOPE, and I am sure very sincerely, that you are truly born again. But as to knowing with certainty, at THIS point in your life -- well, that you don't have.

Quote: Actually I do know for certain. I really don't think it's possible to truly be born again without the person knowing for certain. If they don't "know", then they don't truly believe...if they don't truly believe, then how can you call it faith?

Riiiight. And this is where you go into mental gymnastics again, equating the two different english words KNOW and BELIEVE to one another.

Sure, bud. Very convincing.

There is only one profession that believes these two words are interchangeable. This profession is lawyers. They always say believe and never say know. Why? So that it's harder to sue them for malpractice. :) But in their minds, they very clearly know the difference between knowledge and belief. As do all reasonable people. So I really don't see why you want to muddy up the issue at this point.

It is patently clear that you believe that you are truly born again. And it is also patently clear, in light of your statements above, that you don't really know that to be the case for sure. You just can't, unless you are G-d. And you are not.

So why are you telling everyone that you know, when you really don't?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: So why are you telling everyone that you know, when you really don't?

Because I do know.

1 Corinthians
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

Hey man, just because you don't know, doesn't mean that I don't. You have no idea how God convinced me do you?

It works like this...first you believe and then you KNOW. To know is to have personal knowledge that it is true.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Quote: So why are you telling everyone that you know, when you really don't?

Because I do know.

Yeah. I am sold. :)

Quote: Hey man, just because you don't know, doesn't mean that I don't. You have no idea how God convinced me do you?

Right. And that is precisely why your credibility is on par with that of Almar (the "Prophet"), and the Mormons. Just because you don't know that god told him something about his sister, doesn't mean that he doesn't know.

His and your logic are identical.

Quote: It works like this...first you believe and then you KNOW. To know is to have personal knowledge that it is true.

I will bet you 100 dollars that if you ask Almar whether he has personal knowledge, he will assert that he does (probably in twisted english).

Face it, John. You BELIEVE that you are saved. You HOPE that you are saved. And I have no doubts that you are sincere in your hope and belief. It's quite admirable, in fact. But you just don't know. You can't know. Only G-d knows. And you ain't G-d.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: Face it, John. You BELIEVE that you are saved. You HOPE that you are saved. And I have no doubts that you are sincere in your hope and belief. It's quite admirable, in fact. But you just don't know. You can't know. Only G-d knows. And you ain't G-d.

Well if you wanna make the argument that I'm only human and I can't "really" know anything then fine.

But I can tell you that I know that Jesus died for my Salvation with as much assurance that I know that I exist.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Quote: Face it, John. You BELIEVE that you are saved. You HOPE that you are saved. And I have no doubts that you are sincere in your hope and belief. It's quite admirable, in fact. But you just don't know. You can't know. Only G-d knows. And you ain't G-d.

Well if you wanna make the argument that I'm only human and I can't "really" know anything then fine.

Nope, that wasn't my point.

Quote: But I can tell you that I know that Jesus died for my Salvation with as much assurance that I know that I exist.

You know that you are saved through......personal revelation, I presume? Or am I wrong?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: Face it, John. You BELIEVE that you are saved. You HOPE that you are saved. And I have no doubts that you are sincere in your hope and belief. It's quite admirable, in fact. But you just don't know. You can't know. Only G-d knows. And you ain't G-d.

Well if you wanna make the argument that I'm only human and I can't "really" know anything then fine.

Nope, that wasn't my point.

Quote: But I can tell you that I know that Jesus died for my Salvation with as much assurance that I know that I exist.

You know that you are saved through......personal revelation, I presume? Or am I wrong?

It's not something you're gonna understand unless it happens to you.

I know because God put a "knowing" into me. It happens when you receive the Holy Spirit...you just know that you know that you know. It's where I think the peace that surpasses understanding comes from.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Well, essentially, that's Almar's reasoning. He just knows that he knows that he knows.

Do you believe him?

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

Duchifas wrote: Well, essentially, that's Almar's reasoning. He just knows that he knows that he knows.

Do you believe him?
It's a tough decision to see who has a greater holy spirit. :lol:

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Duchifas wrote: Well, essentially, that's Almar's reasoning. He just knows that he knows that he knows.

Do you believe him?

I haven't had this conversation with him. He just seems like a crazy guy to me.

You asked me how I know.....

I'm not advising you to take my word for it. I really don't expect you to. Heck, people told me the same thing and I didn't believe them. Why would I? It wasn't until it happened to me that I knew it was true.

I accept the fact that you don't believe me. That's fine...it doesn't effect me in the least.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: You know that you are saved through......personal revelation, I presume? Or am I wrong?

Personal revelation + God's word = Knowing. :wink:

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: Well, essentially, that's Almar's reasoning. He just knows that he knows that he knows.

Do you believe him?

I haven't had this conversation with him. He just seems like a crazy guy to me.

Why? He says he had a revelation. What's so crazy about that?

You also claim you had a type of revelation, although you phrase it differently. He says G-d revealed Himself to him, and you say G-d put a "knowing" into you. Different semantics, same idea.

So why do you think that he is crazy and that you aren't?