Political Crossfire Forums

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

Duchifas wrote: Israel,

Relax. :lol: I was responding to John's post where he had a long quote by you, and instead of the initial quote being attributed to John, it got your name in it. Of course, I was addressing John, not you.
Apologies. :-D

Duchifas wrote: Israel's post was indeed nice, but not on point. We are not talking about adding to the laws and not about subtracting from them. We are talking about your assertion that if a man did not follow one rule to the detail it is as if he didn't follow G-d's law AT ALL. [implication: damning him to eternal hell]

Care to back that up?
Dunno, I think my post covers that pretty well. Jesus changed the belief about gilgul ha'ne'shamot along with tons of other things. Pretty much invalidates anything Jesus has to say as far as I'm concerned.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Israel wrote: They were unfortunately killed off by the Romans shorty after Jesus, we can no longer trace the blood line directly to them, this is why we don't have them going around killing homosexuals who knowingly commit these crimes.
As per the Diasporia, I thought that only happened after the Jews were expelled from Babylon circa 1000 AD? Most Jews never even left Babylon for Jerusalem in the first place in 500 BC, and after the Romans kicked them out of Jerusalem, the ones who were expelled just went back to Babylon anyway (which is where they came from in the first place).

Is this correct? I formed this opinion after briefly perusing through the Encyclopedia Judaica, but if it's incorrect, let me know..

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Israel wrote: Jesus changed the belief about gilgul ha'ne'shamot along with tons of other things. Pretty much invalidates anything Jesus has to say as far as I'm concerned.
In what ways did Jesus change beliefs about gilgul ha'ne'shamot?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24242

Quote: I believe a lot of things about the Messiach. Of which Jesus didn't even come close to fullfilling. He explained a perverted version which contradicts Torah all over.

No...not really. I think I know the Bible pretty good and you really need to think about this more.

Please read this link:
http://www.hppc.org/sermons.nsf/0/3fc3850681b3ba4a86256f5b0067600d?OpenDocument

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

psholtz wrote: Israel wrote: Jesus changed the belief about gilgul ha'ne'shamot along with tons of other things. Pretty much invalidates anything Jesus has to say as far as I'm concerned.
In what ways did Jesus change beliefs about gilgul ha'ne'shamot?

Oh I don't know, eternal heaven hell when you die.

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

John wrote: Quote: I believe a lot of things about the Messiach. Of which Jesus didn't even come close to fullfilling. He explained a perverted version which contradicts Torah all over.

No...not really. I think I know the Bible pretty good and you really need to think about this more.

Please read this link:
http://www.hppc.org/sermons.nsf/0/3fc3850681b3ba4a86256f5b0067600d?OpenDocument
Really? How's that Hebrew coming?

Also, I think you need to give up on Mailech, Duchifas, and I. You're better off going to convert people in the Christian forum.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Israel wrote: psholtz wrote: Israel wrote: Jesus changed the belief about gilgul ha'ne'shamot along with tons of other things. Pretty much invalidates anything Jesus has to say as far as I'm concerned.
In what ways did Jesus change beliefs about gilgul ha'ne'shamot?

Oh I don't know, eternal heaven hell when you die.
In the first place, I don't believe this was his teaching (Jesus suggested this *could* occur if you committed what he termed the Unforgivable Sin, but as a rule, most of Jesus' teachings are consistent w/ reincarnation)..

In the second place, are you saying that Jews believe in reincarnation? (if so, are there OT and/or Talmudic references to back it up?)

liquidate · Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject:

Israel wrote:

Also, I think you need to give up on Mailech, Duchifas, and I. You're better off going to convert people in the Christian forum.

I often wonder why John tries to heal the healthy.

Israel · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 2188

psholtz wrote: Israel wrote: psholtz wrote: Israel wrote: Jesus changed the belief about gilgul ha'ne'shamot along with tons of other things. Pretty much invalidates anything Jesus has to say as far as I'm concerned.
In what ways did Jesus change beliefs about gilgul ha'ne'shamot?

Oh I don't know, eternal heaven hell when you die.
In the first place, I don't believe this was his teaching (Jesus suggested this *could* occur if you committed what he termed the Unforgivable Sin, but as a rule, most of Jesus' teachings are consistent w/ reincarnation)..

In the second place, are you saying that Jews believe in reincarnation? (if so, are there OT and/or Talmudic references to back it up?)
Yes, we believe in it, it talks about it in Deuteronomy somewhere, although, I'm not an expert on this. I, like most Jews, don't focus on the afterlife, but on the presesnt. Mailech or Duchifas would know more about this then I in all probability...

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Israel wrote: psholtz wrote: Israel wrote: psholtz wrote: Israel wrote: Jesus changed the belief about gilgul ha'ne'shamot along with tons of other things. Pretty much invalidates anything Jesus has to say as far as I'm concerned.
In what ways did Jesus change beliefs about gilgul ha'ne'shamot?

Oh I don't know, eternal heaven hell when you die.
In the first place, I don't believe this was his teaching (Jesus suggested this *could* occur if you committed what he termed the Unforgivable Sin, but as a rule, most of Jesus' teachings are consistent w/ reincarnation)..

In the second place, are you saying that Jews believe in reincarnation? (if so, are there OT and/or Talmudic references to back it up?)
Yes, we believe in it, it talks about it in Deuteronomy somewhere, although, I'm not an expert on this. I, like most Jews, don't focus on the afterlife, but on the presesnt. Mailech or Duchifas would know more about this then I in all probability...
This Web site suggests that Deut 25:5-10, Deut 33:6, Isaiah 22:14 and Isaiah 65:6 all support reincarnation, but ... truth be told, I'm not sure *how* they're reading that! :-D

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_reincarnation.htm

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24242

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: I am neither nasty nor mean.

Don't kid yourself. You're mean.

Ok. And you are ignoring my question for the fourth time already. The cordiality of discussions here is premised on at least a modicum of intellectual honesty. Up to now, you put forth an unsubstantiated proposition, and refuse to back it up repeatedly. That's not what I would call intellectually honest. Hence my meanness (which is really nothing more than sarcasm).

My authority is in the NT which you do not hesitate to disrespect and call rubbish. So why shouldn't I ignore you. You've already crossed the line of being a gentleman as far as I'm concerned.

Look it isn't a hard concept to understand.

If you murder someone, you have failed to honor your father and your mother; you put yourself before God by assuming the right to STEAL a life, by doing this you have honored Satan the king of murder and in effect committed spiritual adultery with him. You beared false witness with yourself for assuming to have the right to take a life and coveted this right for yourself, taking the Lords name in vain by dishonoring His entire Law with in effect prevent you from keeping His Sabbath Holy as a filthy sinner..

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: My authority is in the NT which you do not hesitate to disrespect and call rubbish. So why shouldn't I ignore you. You've already crossed the line of being a gentleman as far as I'm concerned.

Ok, so if you consciously ignore people, while trying to maintain a discussion then don't expect them to be very nice to you.

As to my respect for the NT -- I accord it no more and no less respect than you accord the book of Mormon. Do you consider yourself mean in your treatment of it?

Quote:
Look it isn't a hard concept to understand.

If you murder someone, you have failed to honor your father and your mother; you put yourself before God by assuming the right to STEAL a life, by doing this you have honored Satan the king of murder and in effect committed spiritual adultery with him. You beared false witness with yourself for assuming to have the right to take a life and coveted this right for yourself, taking the Lords name in vain by dishonoring His entire Law with in effect prevent you from keeping His Sabbath Holy as a filthy sinner..

Yes. And if I murder someone, it is also as if I ate a lobster. Let's see that connection too. As per your statement, there is one.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24242

Quote: As to my respect for the NT -- I accord it no more and no less respect than you accord the book of Mormon. Do you consider yourself mean in your treatment of it?

Yes...I am.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24242

Quote: Yes. And if I murder someone, it is also as if I ate a lobster. Let's see that connection too. As per your statement, there is one.

Yes..murder will defile you spiritually.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Duchifas wrote: And if I murder someone, it is also as if I ate a lobster.
You know that that bugs me... :?

:lol:

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24242

Israel wrote: John wrote: Quote: I believe a lot of things about the Messiach. Of which Jesus didn't even come close to fullfilling. He explained a perverted version which contradicts Torah all over.

No...not really. I think I know the Bible pretty good and you really need to think about this more.

Please read this link:
http://www.hppc.org/sermons.nsf/0/3fc3850681b3ba4a86256f5b0067600d?OpenDocument
Really? How's that Hebrew coming?

Also, I think you need to give up on Mailech, Duchifas, and I. You're better off going to convert people in the Christian forum.

I've never converted anyone in my life. It isn't up to me ( I don't have that kind of power).....I'm just having stimulating conversation with you guys.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Quote: As to my respect for the NT -- I accord it no more and no less respect than you accord the book of Mormon. Do you consider yourself mean in your treatment of it?

Yes...I am.

There you go. So just like you, I share your dislike for fake books.

Quote: Quote: Yes. And if I murder someone, it is also as if I ate a lobster. Let's see that connection too. As per your statement, there is one.

Yes..murder will defile you spiritually.

As expected. And as per your approach, I am sure it goes the other way too. If I take a bite of lobster, I am as bad as a murderer.

And because breaking one law is as bad as breaking all of them, that's precisely why G-d chose to give for different violations.....same? NO, DIFFERENT TYPES OF PUNISHMENTS.

John, your arguments are an exercise in the ridiculous. And I know you are smart enough to recognize just how ridiculous your arguments are. Which is why it baffles me that you continue to advance them, and even more so that you get upset when your arguments are met with sarcasm.

You are telling me that eating a piece of lobster is the same as murder. How do you expect me to react to that? With trustworthy interest?

Quote: I've never converted anyone in my life.

Well, considering the quality of your arguments, that is no surprise. :)

Quote: It isn't up to me ( I don't have that kind of power).....I'm just having stimulating conversation with you guys.

There are many of your statements that give a different impression.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24242

Quote: As expected. And as per your approach, I am sure it goes the other way too. If I take a bite of lobster, I am as bad as a murderer.

And because breaking one law is as bad as breaking all of them, that's precisely why G-d chose to give for different violations.....same? NO, DIFFERENT TYPES OF PUNISHMENTS.

John, your arguments are an exercise in the ridiculous. And I know you are smart enough to recognize just how ridiculous your arguments are. Which is why it baffles me that you continue to advance them, and even more so that you get upset when your arguments are met with sarcasm.

You are telling me that eating a piece of lobster is the same as murder. How do you expect me to react to that? With trustworthy interest?

You bet. Sin is sin. taking a bite out of a fruit started the whole thing...and was in fact equivalent to murder.

Sin leads to death...all sin no matter how small. Actually I really don't think size is the issue in God's eyes. It's zero tolerance.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Duchifas wrote: John, your arguments are an exercise in the ridiculous. And I know you are smart enough to recognize just how ridiculous your arguments are. Which is why it baffles me that you continue to advance them, and even more so that you get upset when your arguments are met with sarcasm.

You are telling me that eating a piece of lobster is the same as murder. How do you expect me to react to that? With trustworthy interest?
Heck, I've seen John take it even further, where if you take a bite of lobster, you're just as bad as Adolf Hitler, and you're condemned to the equivalent fate that Hitler is suffering, but (simultaneously) you're not quite as good as Jeffrey Dahlmer, since Dahlmer is on record as having made a last-minute "confession" of Christ shortly before his death, and is therefore in Heaven kickin' it w/ Jesus as we speak...

Sorry to keep bringing this example up, John, but you continue living by it.. :?

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: You bet. Sin is sin. taking a bite out of a fruit started the whole thing...and was in fact equivalent to murder.

Oh yeah. In fact, that's why for different sins in the Torah there are different punishments. So when you commit one small sin, you need to bring a sacrifice, while if you commit a big sin, you are put to death. So that assignment of different levels of culpability to different sins would suggest to me.....that committing one sin is the same as committing all others. Yes?

Yes indeed. If I were in a different universe, that is. In a universe where gravity make you fall upward.

Quote: Sin leads to death...all sin no matter how small. Actually I really don't think size is the issue in God's eyes. It's zero tolerance.

Yup. The loving, caring, merciful G-d with a ZERO TOLERANCE policy. ONE STRIKE AND YOU ARE OUT. But don't forget, children, that I love you.

Quote: Heck, I've seen John take it even further, where if you take a bite of lobster, you're just as bad as Adolf Hitler, and you're condemned to the equivalent fate that Hitler is suffering, but (simultaneously) you're not quite as good as Jeffrey Dahlmer, since Dahlmer is on record as having made a last-minute "confession" of Christ shortly before his death, and is therefore in Heaven kickin' it w/ Jesus as we speak...

Oh, I wouldn't be at all surprised. I actually had an interesting question on that for John.

John wrote: Quote: He believes that homosexuality does not line up with God's will . It is John's opinion that one cannot continue with homosexual practices after being 'born again' and that anyone who continues to have a homosexual orientation has not been 'born again'.

That's right. I believe that rejecting homosexuality will come naturally to someone who is truly born again. Not that there will not be temptation...there will. But the person who is born again will know that it doesn't please God...and will want to stop.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=933566&highlight=#933566

May I ask you to clarify -- so you think it is possible (not probable, but possible) for one to be born again/saved and to continue sinning?

I know I've asked this before, but I don't think I've ever gotten a satisfactory answer. And to follow up that question -- what is the difference between a person who is saved and one who thinks he is saved, but really is not?