Political Crossfire Forums

[00timh]

Well, lets be honest here, a majority of the cases involving minors are boys. The priests who are doing the molesting are pedeophiles. It is not a direct connection to homosexuality but they are choosing children of the same sex so there is a connection there.

I think that since the catholic religion is adamently opposed to homosexuality, it is within their right to remove priests who are gay. IMO (and I will probably get some argument here) I think there are many who became priests who had/have gay tendencies who felt taking an oath of celebacy was the right thing to do rather than to engage in homosexual sex.

In all honesty, in one way or another I think the percentage of priests who actually honor the oath of celebacy is very small. Too much human nature at work here. If the Catholic church was to eliminate the gay priests, we would probably see an increase in girls molested instead of boys.

Cut and dry, that is my opinion.

[John Galt]

When 4 in 5 pedophillia accusations are brought by males against priests, there has to be something to do with homosexuality.

[John Galt]

callous wrote: Pedophelia is brought on by oaths of celebecy, NOT homosexuality.

what a sick notion.

What you just said is pretty sick. You're saying that because a person isn't having sex they are then driven to rape little boys? Just because you can't control yourself doen't mean that nearly everyone else can.

[Jimmy Madison]

Quote: Humans have hormones because they were built to breed. If a human cant have sex with a consenting human their own age, ....many are going to find other ways to satisfy it. Thats biology.... Pedophelia is brought on by oaths of celebecy, NOT homosexuality.



Yes Callous what you say is true but it does not lead to the conclusion pedophilia is the result of celibacy.

Why? Because they "chose" the boy as opposed to choosing a "man". They have an option, a boy under the age to consent, or find a man who can consent.

They chose the former and not the latter. So I do not see how an oath of celibacy is the "cause" of pedophilia. Had they had sex with a man to gratify their sexual urgers we would not be talking about pedophilia.


It was their "decision" to perform a sex act with a man which has us talking about pedophilia and not the "oath" of celibacy.

[Winchester]

John Galt wrote: When 4 in 5 pedophillia accusations are brought by males against priests, there has to be something to do with homosexuality.

It might, but there are also reports that female victims are significantly under counted because they are much less likely to report abuse than their male counterparts. Whether true or not there is no real way to tell right now.

Priests also generally have much more access to young males (alter servers) than young females so it would also make sense opportunity has something to do with the statistics.

I just have a very hard time equating sexual orientation has anything to do with pedophelia. I think there are homosexual oriented pedophiles and heterosexual oriented pedophiles.

Anyway heres a link to an article on underreporting of female victims.

www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/stories4/122702_women.htm

[Chris29]

Ben_Huh wrote: Chris29 wrote: Ben_Huh wrote: Quote: Pedophilia is brought on by oaths of celibacy

As is Islamic-Fascism; Islamic law prohibits sex outside of marriage, so they promise young Muslim males 72 virgins if you sacrifice all for Allah; If you have never had sex, wouldn't you kill yourself for 72 chicks?

As for the question:

I'm not religous, but if I was I would make the best choice is regards to my religious platform....

and even more ridiculous then the connection between homosexuality and pedohilia is your connection here.

Prove to me where it says that islamo-fascists get 72 virgins in the [b]Q'uran if they kill themselves[/b]???

I thought this was common knowledge, but oh well..........

http://www.citizensoldier.org/72virgins.html

Quote: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise [Heaven] is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]."

Quote: .....the only way to get the virgins is to get to heaven, and Koran is quite specific that the only way to be CERTAIN of getting to heaven is to DIE IN JIHAD.

next time don't get your source of information regarding another religion from citizensoldier.com

Jihad is a definition referring to the personal struggle muslims face. For example to put it in other terms it is the same struggle that say a christian stuggles with their religion. There will always be challenges thus to die in jihad means to die fighting your personal battle with Islam, not to die murdering other people.

I never denied that MARTYRS are rewarded with 72 virgins I challenged your ignorant statement that "Islamofascists" are rewarded by Allah with 72 virgins.

The Q'uran strictly prohibits suicide and simply states that their is no justification whatsoever for it. Where ignorant people in the west get easily confused somehow is the connection with Martyrs. Martyrs die fighting for Islam not by killing themselves or others.

[George W Bush]

JoeTrumps wrote: callous wrote: Pedophelia is brought on by oaths of celebecy, NOT homosexuality.

what a sick notion.

Quote: Myth - The celibate state of priests leads to pedophilia.

Celibacy bears no causal relation to any type of deviant sexual addiction including pedophilia. In fact, married men are just as likely as celibate priests to sexually abuse children (Jenkins, Priests and Pedophilia). In the general population, the majority of abusers are regressed heterosexual men who sexually abuse girls. Women are also found to be among those sexual abusers. While it's difficult to obtain accurate statistics on childhood sexual abuse, the characteristic patterns of repeat child sex offenders have been well described. The profiles of child molesters never include normal adults who become erotically attracted to children as a result of abstinence (Fred Berlin, "Compulsive Sexual Behaviors" in Addiction and Compulsion Behaviors [Boston: NCBC, 1998]; Patrick J. Carnes, "Sexual Compulsion: Challenge for Church Leaders" in Addiction and Compulsion; Dale O'Leary, "Homosexuality and Abuse").


http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/tenmyths.html

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
He uses a Catholic website to backup his argument... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[George W Bush]

Just one question:

how you gonna tell if a priest is gay or not?

[Jimmy Madison]

Quote: Well, lets be honest here, a majority of the cases involving minors are boys. The priests who are doing the molesting are pedeophiles. It is not a direct connection to homosexuality but they are choosing children of the same sex so there is a connection there.


Pedophilia is defined as the perversion in which children are the desired sexual object.

So is there a link between heterosexuality and pedophilia just as there is between homosexuality and pedophilia?

See heterosexuals target children just as homosexuals target children. I would think if there is a link between homosexuals and pedophilia there may also be a link between heterosexuality and pedophilia since members of both groups have been known to engage in pedophilia.

To me sexual preference has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not one is sexually attracted to kids. To me it is simply a "perversion" which does not discriminate on the basis of sexual preference nor does it have any causal relationship to sexual preference.

[John Galt]

Winchester wrote: John Galt wrote: When 4 in 5 pedophillia accusations are brought by males against priests, there has to be something to do with homosexuality.

It might, but there are also reports that female victims are significantly under counted because they are much less likely to report abuse than their male counterparts. Whether true or not there is no real way to tell right now.

Priests also generally have much more access to young males (alter servers) than young females so it would also make sense opportunity has something to do with the statistics.

I just have a very hard time equating sexual orientation has anything to do with pedophelia. I think there are homosexual oriented pedophiles and heterosexual oriented pedophiles.

Anyway heres a link to an article on underreporting of female victims.

www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/stories4/122702_women.htm

Well, considering for as long as I canremember altar servers have been female and that it would be very embarrassing to say you were raped by a priest (from a male standpoint) I really don't seehow what yopu said or that article is very relevant. The fact of the matter is that 4 in 5 of reported cases in the US invovlve a young boy and a priest. Even if it was 1 in 5 it would point to homosexuality (as they are 1 in 20 in the population) as being heavily involved in this whole horror. But it's 4 in 5.

Despite what some cafeteria catholics claim, the prior Pope as well as this one thinks gays are sinners just for being gay. To keep in line with Catholic doctrine they ought be defrocked, lest the Catholic Church be hypocrits.

[John Galt]

George W Bush wrote: Just one question:

how you gonna tell if a priest is gay or not?

Ask him in Church. Idoubt they'd lie.

I've known a few gay monks who freely admit they are gay (but celebate). Of course, I've known of monks who don't believe in God. Weird, I know. They just like the communist life style and the "spirtuality."

[Ben_Huh]

Quote: next time don't get your source of information regarding another religion from citizensoldier.com

Their site provides links to others, you'll probably make fun of those too; Would you rather I quote the Israeli site next time? :roll: And for the record, they quoted stuff from the Q'uran.

Quote: Jihad is a definition referring to the personal struggle muslims face.

Exact definitions differ; Some say it is a struggle to establish the law of God on earth, others interpret it as "holy war"

Quote: There will always be challenges thus to die in jihad means to die fighting your personal battle with Islam, not to die murdering other people

Than why the suicide bombs? Are they not Muslims dying for their "struggle?" Maybe they misinterpreted it , or were told wrong by their leaders.......

Quote: I never denied that MARTYRS are rewarded with 72 virgins I challenged your ignorant statement that "Islamofascists" are rewarded by Allah with 72 virgins.

What did you think I meant? That they were given virgins for just being Islamic fundies? The Koran states that ANY Muslim can get the 72 virgins when they go to heaven, but the only way one can CERTAINLY be accepted into heaven is to die in Jihad; What quicker way then killing yourself, and others, with an IED. You die in your "struggles," and subsequently get the virgins.......

Quote: The Q'uran strictly prohibits suicide and simply states that their is no justification whatsoever for it.

They spin suicide bombings into actions that they don't consider suicide; They figure if you kill others, while killing yourself, that it's not really suicide because you died for a purpose, or your "struggle," rather than just dying.........

[Chris29]

Ben_Huh wrote: Quote: next time don't get your source of information regarding another religion from citizensoldier.com

Their site provides links to others, you'll probably make fun of those too; Would you rather I quote the Israeli site next time? :roll: And for the record, they quoted stuff from the Q'uran.

Quote: Jihad is a definition referring to the personal struggle muslims face.

Exact definitions differ; Some say it is a struggle to establish the law of God on earth, others interpret it as "holy war"

Quote: There will always be challenges thus to die in jihad means to die fighting your personal battle with Islam, not to die murdering other people

Than why the suicide bombs? Are they not Muslims dying for their "struggle?" Maybe they misinterpreted it , or were told wrong by their leaders.......

Quote: I never denied that MARTYRS are rewarded with 72 virgins I challenged your ignorant statement that "Islamofascists" are rewarded by Allah with 72 virgins.

What did you think I meant? That they were given virgins for just being Islamic fundies? The Koran states that ANY Muslim can get the 72 virgins when they go to heaven, but the only way one can CERTAINLY be accepted into heaven is to die in Jihad; What quicker way then killing yourself, and others, with an IED. You die in your "struggles," and subsequently get the virgins.......

Quote: The Q'uran strictly prohibits suicide and simply states that their is no justification whatsoever for it.

They spin suicide bombings into actions that they don't consider suicide; They figure if you kill others, while killing yourself, that it's not really suicide because you died for a purpose, or your "struggle," rather than just dying.........

just to make clear, are you criticizing Islamic militant fundamentalists, the Q'uran or both?

[Jimmy Madison]

Quote: Well, considering for as long as I canremember altar servers have been female and that it would be very embarrassing to say you were raped by a priest (from a male standpoint) I really don't seehow what yopu said or that article is very relevant. The fact of the matter is that 4 in 5 of reported cases in the US invovlve a young boy and a priest. Even if it was 1 in 5 it would point to homosexuality (as they are 1 in 20 in the population) as being heavily involved in this whole horror. But it's 4 in 5.


Those are very intriguing numbers Galt but I have some questions.

I for many years attended a Catholic church and school. I went through all of their rites and rituals. I was an altar worker. However, in all my years there females were never altar workers for a reason.

The priests view themselves as the "priests" in the OT. The OT did not have female priests nor female temple workers and so there weren't any female altar workers. Additionally, they rely upon Paul's teachings women should not be in authority over men and use some other very few verses to arrive at the conclusion a females role in the church is one limited to sitting in the crowd.

With this said I would be most interested in hearing more information about the 4 of 5 statistic numbers. Was a lot of the data drawn from churches where there are only male altar workers? If so, then this is particularly relevant to demonstrating perhaps homosexuality has nothing to do with it as much as opportunity.

Second of all what is the nationwide statistic on pedophilia? Pedophilia is not a phenomenon that only plagues the gay community. There are heterosexual pedophiles as well.

Right now I think there could be a link but more facts are needed. I do know simply throwing out numbers, such as 4 in 5, does not help us much.

[Jimmy Madison]

Quote: Despite what some cafeteria catholics claim, the prior Pope as well as this one thinks gays are sinners just for being gay. To keep in line with Catholic doctrine they ought be defrocked, lest the Catholic Church be hypocrits.

John I concur. The only relevant consideration, as far as I am concerned, is what the bible mandates. Catholics go off of the bible and both the OT and NT condemn homosexuality as an abomination to God.

So regardless of the policy reasons justifying or condemning this proposal the fact the bible condemns homosexuality and they have no place in church leadership.

Romans first Chapter verses 25-28.

Leviticus: Any man who lays with another man shall be put to death.

[Ben_Huh]

Quote: just to make clear, are you criticizing Islamic militant fundamentalists, the Q'uran or both?

I'm saying that the militant leaders use their perception of the Q'uran in order to recruit others; What better to offer a young Muslim male whose never had sex than 72 virgin wives?........

[Chris29]

Ben_Huh wrote: Quote: just to make clear, are you criticizing Islamic militant fundamentalists, the Q'uran or both?

I'm saying that the militant leaders use their perception of the Q'uran in order to recruit others; What better to offer a young Muslim male whose never had sex than 72 virgin wives?........

then I completely 100% agree with you, what we must recognize though is that their interpretation of the Q'uran is entirely inncorect, thus why Islamic leaders are condemning these vary actions.

[John Galt]

Jimmy Madison wrote: Quote: Well, considering for as long as I canremember altar servers have been female and that it would be very embarrassing to say you were raped by a priest (from a male standpoint) I really don't seehow what yopu said or that article is very relevant. The fact of the matter is that 4 in 5 of reported cases in the US invovlve a young boy and a priest. Even if it was 1 in 5 it would point to homosexuality (as they are 1 in 20 in the population) as being heavily involved in this whole horror. But it's 4 in 5.


Those are very intriguing numbers Galt but I have some questions.

I for many years attended a Catholic church and school. I went through all of their rites and rituals. I was an altar worker. However, in all my years there females were never altar workers for a reason.

The priests view themselves as the "priests" in the OT. The OT did not have female priests nor female temple workers and so there weren't any female altar workers. Additionally, they rely upon Paul's teachings women should not be in authority over men and use some other very few verses to arrive at the conclusion a females role in the church is one limited to sitting in the crowd.

Since Vatican II things have changed.

The reason only males can be priests is simple, if you look at the world with Hellenistic logic. A woman carries a man seed but the child is contained wholly within the man. Therefore only a man can have other people inside them and females are just a vessel. Since the priest is supposed to represent the entirety of the Catholic Church when he is administering the sacraments, particullary reconcilliation, it makes sense that only a person who can carry other people inthem can be a priest. It confounds our logic and view of the world but that is where it originated from. There's alot of other bits of dogma I am both familiar and unfamiliar with but I'm just saying where it came from...

Anyway, yeah altar boys were kinda like that. But they are not altar boys anymore. Alter servers.

Quote: With this said I would be most interested in hearing more information about the 4 of 5 statistic numbers. Was a lot of the data drawn from churches where there are only male altar workers? If so, then this is particularly relevant to demonstrating perhaps homosexuality has nothing to do with it as much as opportunity.

If you had not had sex perod for a long time and you saw a young supple boy come along, would you rape him? Yes or no are the only two avialable options here. If yes, that's quite disturbing. If no it shows two things. One, people can control themselves. Two, you're not attracted to young boys.

The 4 out of 5 came from a study which I have only read the end findings. This studywas commissioned by the American Bishops and I believe was quite confidential on the specifics. It is from last year.

Quote: Second of all what is the nationwide statistic on pedophilia? Pedophilia is not a phenomenon that only plagues the gay community. There are heterosexual pedophiles as well.

Of course there are.

However, considering that 80% are boys and that from what I've read from various websites, about 0.5% of priests, and 1% of the nation as a whole (these numbers both include post-pubescents though so it might be "consensual" or whatever.And that also includes those NAMBLA perverts), are perverted pedophiles, one can see there is no link between celibacy and pedophelia in the priesthood but somethingcould be drawn between homosexuality in the priesthood and the resulting sex scandal.

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote: Jihadist sucide, which results in the deaths of others as well, is a form of suicide.......

Whats your point? The Koran also outlaws murder. The point is the terrorists are NOT doing a jihad. Jihad is defending Islam. They aren't defending s**t

Quote: You have to go to heaven to get the virgins; The Koran is quite specific that the only way to be CERTAIN of getting to heaven is to die in Jihad.

They must die in Jihad? Don't think so. Eh, It doesn't really matter. The point is it's supposed to be a reward for faithfulness in life



Quote: So what? You're a grammar Nazi now?

Thats not being a grammar nazi. That's like me saying

Hello, how are tu today?

You do not mix languages in the middle of sentances

(tu=you in Spanish))

[John Galt]

Put it another way:

Are Preists more likely to be pedophiles than anyone else? No

Are pedophillic priests more likely to abuse boys than girls? Yes.

Do priests have constant access to both young boys and girls? Yes.

Would a straight male have sex with another male? No.

Would a gay male have sex with another male? Yes.

Would a gay male be more inclined than a straight male to abuse a young boy? Yes.

Are the men of NAMBLA gay? Yes.

Conclusions? Priests, while no more likely to be pedophilles than everyone else, do in small numbers abuse children. These children are overwhelmingly male. Since straight men don't have sex with other men -- it would go against the definetion of being straight -- these preists are gay. While the problem is small, it is there, and it has been committed mostly by gay preists.