Political Crossfire Forums

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11047 Location: Podunk, Colorado

I have a question for the Radicals, why do you believe in what you believe in? Hasn't it been proved time and time again that communism doesn't work? A response would be appreciated...

Snow Patrol · Joined: 30 May 2005 Posts: 2175 Location: Glasgow

Who said we're communists?

social · Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Question for the Radicals

ProGunAmerican wrote: I have a question for the Radicals, why do you believe in what you believe in? Hasn't it been proved time and time again that communism doesn't work? A response would be appreciated...

The so-called "proof" that communism doesn't work is often based on the beleif that Stalinism is communism, and therefore that becuase Stalinism doesn't work, communism mustn't also work. Which is all a load of old b*****, as far as I'm concerned.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11047 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Cuba is also an example of how it doesn'y work...

Jehan · Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 3697 Location: Rhode Island

Don't they teach that stereotyping is bad in the Libertarian HQ? Damn, it appears that Kumar wasn't the man cap'n queasy was.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6953 Location: Ohio

? Yes, one lib says something you disagere with and you blame the leader. Wonderful logic.

Communism has never existed. It's a tyrannical socialism in Cuba and Russia.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2055 Location: Somewhere

I would argue that the former USSR, China, Cuba and North Korea are nothing but tin pot dictatorships and have nothing to do with any form of economic philosophy.

Cheers, Eternal

Rilzic · Joined: 22 May 2005 Posts: 385 Location: Alb, NM, USA

The first few french republics were called radicals and quite a few of the worlds first republics proved it didn't work. they kept at it and look at the world today a bunch of radicals compared to the era of monarchies

social · Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject:

ProGunAmerican wrote: Cuba is also an example of how it doesn'y work...

Ok, let me ask you something about Cuba (this isn't a trick question, a riddle or anything of the sort). Who owns and controls the means of production, the worker, or the state?

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11047 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Quote: Ok, let me ask you something about Cuba (this isn't a trick question, a riddle or anything of the sort). Who owns and controls the means of production, the worker, or the state?
Castro

Quote: Don't they teach that stereotyping is bad in the Libertarian HQ? Damn, it appears that Kumar wasn't the man cap'n queasy was.
Eh... no one put me up to making this thread, so there is no one at the Libertarian HQ to blame if I have offended anyone...

I started this topic to see why the "Radicals" believe in what they believe in. Seems to me that a free state would work a lot better than a social or communist state.

StarsNstripes · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 723

Cuba is a Communist Dictatorship.

social · Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:46 pm Post subject:

ProGunAmerican wrote: Quote: Ok, let me ask you something about Cuba (this isn't a trick question, a riddle or anything of the sort). Who owns and controls the means of production, the worker, or the state?
Castro

Exactly, Castro, being the owner of the Cuban state, is also the person who owns and controls the means of production. Marx famously spoke of the workers owning and controlling the means of production. He did not argue for state control. Therefore, Cuba is neither communist nor socialist - at least not in the sense that Marx described them.

Snow Patrol · Joined: 30 May 2005 Posts: 2175 Location: Glasgow

ProGunAmerican wrote: Quote: Ok, let me ask you something about Cuba (this isn't a trick question, a riddle or anything of the sort). Who owns and controls the means of production, the worker, or the state?
Castro
Exactly, it's not communism then. Don't believe me ask Jay2014 from your HQ, he seemed to have a pretty good idea of the reality of it.

ProGunAmerican wrote: I started this topic to see why the "Radicals" believe in what they believe in. Seems to me that a free state would work a lot better than a social or communist state.
What makes you think Radicals means communists? I don't see why anyone has to justify their personal beliefs to you either.

Radical HQ contains many people with different political ideologys that don't quite fit in with the other partys on here. This includes democratic socialists, socialist democrats, communists, council-communists, anarchists, anarcho-syndicallists, ontological anarchist (we haven't quite worked out what it is either, ask DarkMerlin), and even a few renegade Libertarians, many of which are as ideologically opposed to each other as they are to everybody else.

StarsNstripes · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 723

Snow Patrol wrote: ProGunAmerican wrote: Quote: Ok, let me ask you something about Cuba (this isn't a trick question, a riddle or anything of the sort). Who owns and controls the means of production, the worker, or the state?
Castro
Exactly, it's not communism then. Don't believe me ask Jay2014 from your HQ, he seemed to have a pretty good idea of the reality of it.

ProGunAmerican wrote: I started this topic to see why the "Radicals" believe in what they believe in. Seems to me that a free state would work a lot better than a social or communist state.
What makes you think Radicals means communists? I don't see why anyone has to justify their personal beliefs to you either.

Radical HQ contains many people with different political ideologys that don't quite fit in with the other partys on here. This includes democratic socialists, socialist democrats, communists, council-communists, anarchists, anarcho-syndicallists, ontological anarchist (we haven't quite worked out what it is either, ask DarkMerlin), and even a few renegade Libertarians, many of which are as ideologically opposed to each other as they are to everybody else.

As I said, Communist Dictatorship.

anselfir · Joined: 16 Apr 2005 Posts: 23046 Location: ZzZzZzZz

meh, commies

ownership by a group requires cooperation to teh degree of a common aim. the aim of Bob is the betterment of Bob, same thign with Rob. the myriad of conflict of interests destroys the basis of cooperation, and therefore destroys the effectiveness of group ownership. State ownership then must be the substitute, since private ownership is the more grevious of alternatives. so enough with teh "i favor proletariat ownership, but not state ownership" crap, the former is not possible, so can it. so communism wil never happen unless there is a fundamental change in human nature. various people have tried to force people into communism, but none succeeded. you argue that the product they created is not communism, but what other products have they created? Can i claim that i was not building a house if i failed to build it?

btw, who said the communist states are not results of communism? communism is the justification and the condition for the establishment of the regime and its centralisation.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11047 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Quote: What makes you think Radicals means communists? I don't see why anyone has to justify their personal beliefs to you either.

Radical HQ contains many people with different political ideologys that don't quite fit in with the other partys on here. This includes democratic socialists, socialist democrats, communists, council-communists, anarchists, anarcho-syndicallists, ontological anarchist (we haven't quite worked out what it is either, ask DarkMerlin), and even a few renegade Libertarians, many of which are as ideologically opposed to each other as they are to everybody else.
I did include socialists...

But it seems like a free state would be better than a "controled" state.
Even if there was a country with a "pure" communist goverment, it wouldn't take long for the goverment to abuse its power and bacome another Cuba.

social · Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject:

ProGunAmerican wrote: Quote: What makes you think Radicals means communists? I don't see why anyone has to justify their personal beliefs to you either.

Radical HQ contains many people with different political ideologys that don't quite fit in with the other partys on here. This includes democratic socialists, socialist democrats, communists, council-communists, anarchists, anarcho-syndicallists, ontological anarchist (we haven't quite worked out what it is either, ask DarkMerlin), and even a few renegade Libertarians, many of which are as ideologically opposed to each other as they are to everybody else. it wouldn't take long for the goverment to abuse its power and bacome another Cuba.

...which is why I've consitently opposed any political system that is based on the idea that the state should control the means of production. As far as I'm concerned, the state's duties should concern the military, the maintance of security (ie the police force), diplomacy and foreign relations; and in that respect, my ideology is similar to Libertarianism.

Snow Patrol · Joined: 30 May 2005 Posts: 2175 Location: Glasgow

ProGunAmerican wrote: I did include socialists...
Your first post in this thread merely said communists, a later post included socialists as an after thought. You still did not include anarchists which make up a large section of Radical HQ and believe in no state at all. You won't get far if you continue to generalise and label large sections of people and their ideologys.

ProGunAmerican wrote: But it seems like a free state would be better than a "controled" state. Even if there was a country with a "pure" communist goverment, it wouldn't take long for the goverment to abuse its power and bacome another Cuba.
Cuba is a dictatorship that employs a number of socialistic principles and ideas, nothing more. I'm not getting into an ideological debate with anybody since it's pretty pointless, go look at the debates from the Philosophy section there's plenty there to go over.

You still don't answer why anybody should justify their personal belief to you.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11047 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Quote: You still don't answer why anybody should justify their personal belief to you.
Quote: Your first post in this thread merely said communists, a later post included socialists as an after thought. You still did not include anarchists which make up a large section of Radical HQ and believe in no state at all. You won't get far if you continue to generalise and label large sections of people and their ideologys.
I thought that communists made up most of the radical HQ, but I am clearly wrong about that. I didn't mean to make a general statement that all Radicals are communists...
I am just asking "why"... if I am offending anybody I will shut up now.

Quote: go look at the debates from the Philosophy section there's plenty there to go over.
I will go do that...

Sorry if I offeneded anyone...

Kumar · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 16289 Location: Prague

Jehan wrote: Don't they teach that stereotyping is bad in the Libertarian HQ? Damn, it appears that Kumar wasn't the man cap'n queasy was.
Yeah, I'm apparently supposed to rule with an iron fist; keep track of all posts LP members make and punish them if they happen to be "stereotypical". What a guy. What logic. :roll: