Political Crossfire Forums

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15292 Location: Albuquerque, NM

FLea wrote: Gdawg007 wrote:

I don't think there's a gay gene either. I think it's a choice. But like I said, if it's a choice to be gay, what's the other half of that choice?

What envrionment makes people gay then? Because I don't know a single gay person who was raised by someone else who was gay.

There is little correlation between pedophiles and homosexuality despite what some "family" oriented groups may claim. A man who abuses a boy does not do so for sexual gratification the way he has normal sex with a women. He does it for power and control, NOT usually because he's turned on. Most males who molest boys have been molested themselves at some point, usually by another male, so the reaction is since they have now power over it happening to them, they get a sense of power by doing it to another boy. It's like the boss at work whom you know at home does everything his wife says. You know the type, they are always the ones in charge because that's where they can be. It's similar, not identical, but close. Few men who molest boys are truly "in love" with boys the way two adult gay males would be.

Diseases are emotional as well, in fact envrionmental stress is in the definition of a disease.

We can agree to disagree. I am not going to argue about what "i have seen" or what "You have seen" because its moot.

Let me give you a lesson on disease. You know obesity is now a disease, and acid reflux is a disease? You know why? Not necessarily because they are diseases, but because the are deemed diseases by the Food and Drug administration to peddle drugs.

Acid reflux is merely a condition where you actually dont have enough acid in your stomach to digest the food. A spoon full of apple vinegar will solve that problem. Its not a "disease" because its a disease, its labeled a disease so the food and drug administration can peddle drugs on the market.

Drug companies pay the FDA to label disorders as diseases ultimately to peddle drugs on TV, and market them.

Cost approximately 11 million to deem a disorder a disease.

K i got a racquet ball game tonight...
be back later

-flea

A disease is defined as such:

dis·ease ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-zz)
n.
A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.

That's a specific definition. It means that you must be able to track the development of the disease, and it has to have an identifiable group of symptoms. Both of which acid reflux "disease" and obesity have. By that definition, it's correct to call them a disease. Now, are you wrong in saying they are classified as diseases so someone can make a profit? No.

As someone who's had acid reflux disease, I can say it's in no way a "disease." It's a discomfort, yes, but it's easily fixed with lifestyle changes that are sensible and healthy anyway. So I can agree with what you are saying for the most part.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

Melchior · Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 9614 Location: Palm Beach

My post on Hale .vs. Henkel was still not addressed... :cry:

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

Why bother? Marriage is marriage.

Why should your "dislike" of the word matter?

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15292 Location: Albuquerque, NM

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10775

rxb fan wrote: Ameriman wrote: callous wrote: the only reasons to keep gay marraige from being allowed are as follows.

Tradition.

Religious principles.

Neither of which apply in any Democracy where humans have personal freedoms of any realistic kind.

Isn't the definition of personal freedom the right to have tradition and religious principles among other things?

...like marriage?

Sure...and if you can find a church to marry you and your boyfriend then more power to you...

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10775

callous wrote: Thrilla wrote: Quote: problem with homosexuality is its proven to be a genetic trait no.. i dont think it has been proven
got a link to that proof?

Its information that is as old as air....... its amazing how solid a job religious organizations have done about burying it.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/97legacy/10_22_97b.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3735668.stm

Neither of those links prove a genetic trait...do you need me to quote your own sources?

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10775

Quote: Would you say the mouth is naturally suited for a penis? And yet heterosexuals use it all the time in sex play, now don't they.

No. Sex play is far different than an inherent sexual predisposition. Does sex play equate to what is natural and or what should be accepted by you or I? Are you saying that sex between two homosexuals is simply "sex play"?

Quote: For the record, I'm not gay, and I'll admit that I'm a little less comfortable around gays than I am around straight people, but I can't help but feel that this country is letting that same fear that I share with them overrule their sense of fairness.

Let's not forget that homosexual couples don't have the same rights you and I do. If they buy a house together, and even if they both have a wills stating that it goes to the other, their families can still contest it and get their share out of it. No will can stop that, and is that really fair? Afterall a will is a person's wishes. Giving a house to the person they love as a last wish is not illegal, and the law should protect them from families who just don't agree with certain lifestyle, should it not?

I agree. Although I think that marriage as a whole should be removed from governmental legislation.

A civil union would be appropriate and would allow for such "benefits".

That does not make homosexuality natural...those are two different arguments..

Like I said...what two people do in the privacy of their own home is between them. It's when they believe I should think a certain way or believe in what or how they believe that I take exception.

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15292 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Quote: No. Sex play is far different than an inherent sexual predisposition. Does sex play equate to what is natural and or what should be accepted by you or I? Are you saying that sex between two homosexuals is simply "sex play"?

Sex play is sex. Unless we are all going to conceed that Clinton DIDN'T have sex with Monica, oral sex is sex. So, is it unnatural?

Quote: That does not make homosexuality natural...those are two different arguments..

True, but I have yet to be convinced by anyone here or else where that you can label it as unnatural. Is it not the normal sexual preference of society? No, it's not. But that doesn't make it unnatural in my mind. Using that word is designed solely to demonize it and convince people to act against it. It's a politicized word. Anyway, you don't have to prove it's natural to ensure that Americans are being treated fairly. The marriage being removed from gov't will do that just fine and let individuals decide what's natural and what's not.

Quote: It's when they believe I should think a certain way or believe in what or how they believe that I take exception.

Why would you assume they think you should believe in their lifestyle? And how is voting to ban gay marriage not saying they should believe in YOUR lifestyle? 90% of all society says they shouldn't be gay, and you're worried about them telling YOU what to believe? No one claims heterosexuality is a disease or causes pedophelia like some claim of homosexuality.

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10775

Gdawg007 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

What I think he is talking about is the pushing of a belief or lifestyle acceptance onto those who do not agree.

Here is an analogy.

How many of us here despise people of religion who continually push Jesus on you or try to have you converted?

What's the difference?

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15292 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Ameriman wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

What I think he is talking about is the pushing of a belief or lifestyle acceptance onto those who do not agree.

Here is an analogy.

How many of us here despise people of religion who continually push Jesus on you or try to have you converted?

What's the difference?

No one has ever knocked on my door on Sunday and tried to convince me to become gay...

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10775

Gdawg007 wrote:
Sex play is sex. Unless we are all going to conceed that Clinton DIDN'T have sex with Monica, oral sex is sex. So, is it unnatural?

In the argument of whether or not oral sex is sex...whatever..

Is it natural in the sense that nature intended you to have oral sex? No..the mouth is not designed for the insertion of anything other than food and water.

Quote:
True, but I have yet to be convinced by anyone here or else where that you can label it as unnatural. Is it not the normal sexual preference of society? No, it's not. But that doesn't make it unnatural in my mind. Using that word is designed solely to demonize it and convince people to act against it. It's a politicized word. Anyway, you don't have to prove it's natural to ensure that Americans are being treated fairly. The marriage being removed from gov't will do that just fine and let individuals decide what's natural and what's not.

I am not using it to push an anti-gay agenda. I could care less what or how they do things.

Simply stated...the insertion of a penis into the anus is not a natural act because the anus is not meant to have a penis inserted...

Can you do it? Sure...

Does it feel good? I assume it does..

Do those things make it natural?

No.

You can prove this by seeing the various ill side effects that come from anal sex in particular. Ripping...infection...transmition of disease and the ease by which it takes place during anal sex...etc.

Quote:

Why would you assume they think you should believe in their lifestyle? And how is voting to ban gay marriage not saying they should believe in YOUR lifestyle? 90% of all society says they shouldn't be gay, and you're worried about them telling YOU what to believe? No one claims heterosexuality is a disease or causes pedophelia like some claim of homosexuality.

You don't get that impression? Maybe it's just me...something tells me that there are homosexuals that are pushing to have people believe homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality...I could be wrong...

I wouldn't vote to ban gay marriage...but then again I wouldn't vote for marriage...like I stated before...I am for civil union...no matter what your sexual preference...

No one claims heterosexuality is a disease because it's not...to claim that would be to lose all credibility...

I do not think homosexuality causes pedophelia..I do believe molestation can be linked to homosexuality later in life.

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10775

Gdawg007 wrote: Ameriman wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

What I think he is talking about is the pushing of a belief or lifestyle acceptance onto those who do not agree.

Here is an analogy.

How many of us here despise people of religion who continually push Jesus on you or try to have you converted?

What's the difference?

No one has ever knocked on my door on Sunday and tried to convince me to become gay...

Does that mean that gay people do not want or try to have you believe being gay is natural?

free thinking american · Joined: 31 Jul 2005 Posts: 1247 Location: wisconsin

Gdawg007 wrote: Ameriman wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

What I think he is talking about is the pushing of a belief or lifestyle acceptance onto those who do not agree.

Here is an analogy.

How many of us here despise people of religion who continually push Jesus on you or try to have you converted?

What's the difference?

No one has ever knocked on my door on Sunday and tried to convince me to become gay...

True, but how many TV shows do you see espousing the Jehova's witness lifestyle?

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15292 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Quote: In the argument of whether or not oral sex is sex...whatever..

Is it natural in the sense that nature intended you to have oral sex? No..the mouth is not designed for the insertion of anything other than food and water.

So, why is that not used to ban oral sex?

Quote: I am not using it to push an anti-gay agenda. I could care less what or how they do things.

Simply stated...the insertion of a penis into the anus is not a natural act because the anus is not meant to have a penis inserted...

Can you do it? Sure...

Does it feel good? I assume it does..

Do those things make it natural?

No.

You can prove this by seeing the various ill side effects that come from anal sex in particular. Ripping...infection...transmition of disease and the ease by which it takes place during anal sex...etc.

None of this makes it unnatural either. Ripping of the vaginal skin occurs in some women during vaginal intercourse. So does infection (STD's), and transmission of disease. Yeast infections, a common occurance, can result from sex. How easy do you think infection place in the vagina? There are exposed blood vessels in the uterus! That makes it just as easy. None of this is unnatural during either kind of sex.

Quote: You don't get that impression? Maybe it's just me...something tells me that there are homosexuals that are pushing to have people believe homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality...I could be wrong...

I wouldn't vote to ban gay marriage...but then again I wouldn't vote for marriage...like I stated before...I am for civil union...no matter what your sexual preference...

No one claims heterosexuality is a disease because it's not...to claim that would be to lose all credibility...

I do not think homosexuality causes pedophelia..I do believe molestation can be linked to homosexuality later in life.

So no one claims your lifestyle as a disease, and yet you feel under attack?

No, I don't feel that way. I admit that I find it gross. I mean, it's childish, but I do. And I'm not as comfortable around gay people as I am around straight people. It's my own fear of what, I don't know, but it's there. But I don't really feel a gay person has ever actively made me accept them as a gay person. They just wanted me to accept them as a person, like anyone would.

I don't know that much about the whole molestation causing homosexuality. I do know that many abused children grow up to abuse children themselves, but it's less to do with sexuality and more to do with control, anger, and fear of what someone did to them. At least, as far as I understand.

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15292 Location: Albuquerque, NM

free thinking american wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: Ameriman wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

What I think he is talking about is the pushing of a belief or lifestyle acceptance onto those who do not agree.

Here is an analogy.

How many of us here despise people of religion who continually push Jesus on you or try to have you converted?

What's the difference?

No one has ever knocked on my door on Sunday and tried to convince me to become gay...

True, but how many TV shows do you see espousing the Jehova's witness lifestyle?

Not many, but how many shows espouse the gay lifestyle? Will and Grace? Queer Eye? Most shows depict heterosexuals who are of course understanding of gay people, but none are gay. And most make homosexuality a topic of humor. There are many more shows that espouse religion than homosexuality.

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10775

Gdawg007 wrote:

So, why is that not used to ban oral sex?

It is in some states....but....I don't think "sex play" should be illegal.

Quote:
None of this makes it unnatural either. Ripping of the vaginal skin occurs in some women during vaginal intercourse. So does infection (STD's), and transmission of disease. Yeast infections, a common occurance, can result from sex. How easy do you think infection place in the vagina? There are exposed blood vessels in the uterus! That makes it just as easy. None of this is unnatural during either kind of sex.

Ripping in the anus is much more common than in the vagina (except possibly for virgins) which, allows for easier transmistion of STDs...with that said..yes STDs are transmitted via vaginal intercourse as well..

So you are saying that the anus was meant to have a penis inserted?

Quote:

No, I don't feel that way. I admit that I find it gross. I mean, it's childish, but I do. And I'm not as comfortable around gay people as I am around straight people. It's my own fear of what, I don't know, but it's there. But I don't really feel a gay person has ever actively made me accept them as a gay person. They just wanted me to accept them as a person, like anyone would.

Why do homosexuals have gay pride parades?

Quote: I don't know that much about the whole molestation causing homosexuality. I do know that many abused children grow up to abuse children themselves, but it's less to do with sexuality and more to do with control, anger, and fear of what someone did to them. At least, as far as I understand.

I can go along with that.

free thinking american · Joined: 31 Jul 2005 Posts: 1247 Location: wisconsin

Gdawg007 wrote: free thinking american wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: Ameriman wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

What I think he is talking about is the pushing of a belief or lifestyle acceptance onto those who do not agree.

Here is an analogy.

How many of us here despise people of religion who continually push Jesus on you or try to have you converted?

What's the difference?

No one has ever knocked on my door on Sunday and tried to convince me to become gay...

True, but how many TV shows do you see espousing the Jehova's witness lifestyle?

Not many, but how many shows espouse the gay lifestyle? Will and Grace? Queer Eye? Most shows depict heterosexuals who are of course understanding of gay people, but none are gay. And most make homosexuality a topic of humor. There are many more shows that espouse religion than homosexuality.

Other than the shows on religious channels, what shows espouse religion?
You don't see many of those in primetime.

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10775

Gdawg007 wrote: free thinking american wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: Ameriman wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

What I think he is talking about is the pushing of a belief or lifestyle acceptance onto those who do not agree.

Here is an analogy.

How many of us here despise people of religion who continually push Jesus on you or try to have you converted?

What's the difference?

No one has ever knocked on my door on Sunday and tried to convince me to become gay...

True, but how many TV shows do you see espousing the Jehova's witness lifestyle?

Not many, but how many shows espouse the gay lifestyle? Will and Grace? Queer Eye? Most shows depict heterosexuals who are of course understanding of gay people, but none are gay. And most make homosexuality a topic of humor. There are many more shows that espouse religion than homosexuality.

But their existence shows a predominant movement to accept...most of those shows are about acceptance which, means you have to believe a certain way and accept that lifestyle as natural.

Ellen

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15292 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Quote: It is in some states....but....I don't think "sex play" should be illegal.

So none of us would support a constutional ban on oral sex, right? Why on any other type of sex?

Quote: Ripping in the anus is much more common than in the vagina (except possibly for virgins) which, allows for easier transmistion of STDs...with that said..yes STDs are transmitted via vaginal intercourse as well..

So you are saying that the anus was meant to have a penis inserted?

Heterosexual females are one of most at risk groups for the transmission of STD's. Ripping occurs in non-virgins as well, it's called dyspareunia.

No I'm not saying it was meant to have a penis inserted, but none of your criteria can be used to call anal sex unnatural. All of those criteria happen during vaginal intercourse.

Quote: Why do homosexuals have gay pride parades?

Why do blacks have million man marches? Why do Italians have Columbus Day parades? Why do Native Americans protest Columbus Day parades? Perhaps it is self-promotion, but they aren't the ONLY ones who do it. It's mostly people who have been wronged by the majority who have such parades...

Quote: Other than the shows on religious channels, what shows espouse religion?
You don't see many of those in primetime.

Most shows have religious norms in them. They may not be evangical bible worshipers, but most characters on shows like ER, most daytime dramas, and even shows like the O.C. show characters having some attachment to religion. Touched by An Angel or 7th Heaven may have been extreme on it, but the whole point is that it's perfectly acceptable to have a wedding scene in a church on any TV show, whether the characters are shown routinely in church or not. Even characters who are pissed at God for whatever reason often have some sort of epidsode where they accept a certain measure of faith or religion. Religion gets represented in TV fairly often in my opinion. At least as often as gay characters, and not quite as often in a humorous role as homosexuals are represented in.

Gdawg007 · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 15292 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Ameriman wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: free thinking american wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: Ameriman wrote: Gdawg007 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: why do people dislike the idea of gay marriage in the first place? I dislike calling it marriage. Have all the same stuff with a different word and leave your private life out of my face.

How is their private life in your face?

What I think he is talking about is the pushing of a belief or lifestyle acceptance onto those who do not agree.

Here is an analogy.

How many of us here despise people of religion who continually push Jesus on you or try to have you converted?

What's the difference?

No one has ever knocked on my door on Sunday and tried to convince me to become gay...

True, but how many TV shows do you see espousing the Jehova's witness lifestyle?

Not many, but how many shows espouse the gay lifestyle? Will and Grace? Queer Eye? Most shows depict heterosexuals who are of course understanding of gay people, but none are gay. And most make homosexuality a topic of humor. There are many more shows that espouse religion than homosexuality.

But their existence shows a predominant movement to accept...most of those shows are about acceptance which, means you have to believe a certain way and accept that lifestyle as natural.

Ellen

Couldn't they say the same about all the shows that have heterosexuals on them? That there's a movement to make them accept that homosexuality is unnatural and that they should believe that and accept our lifestyle as natural? Why can't they say the same thing?

Ellen was a terrible show, in my opinion... :-)