Political Crossfire Forums

[snow]

I just finished up reading the Old Testament, and I really didn't see that much coverage of an afterlife. I saw a lot of Sheol, and a few vague references to a spirit realm. What are the consensus views and verses that point to an afterlife?

[Duchifas]

snow wrote: I just finished up reading the Old Testament, and I really didn't see that much coverage of an afterlife. I saw a lot of Sheol, and a few vague references to a spirit realm. What are the consensus views and verses that point to an afterlife?

The point of the Original Testament is to show us how to live this life. The dearth of references or specifics about afterlife is in itself one of the most important messages in the Original Testament -- there are plenty of things to worry about in this world. I am not saying that's what you did, but if a person reads the OT trying to figure out what will happen to him after he kicks the bucket -- missed the whole point of the OT.

As to the direct answer to your question -- I personally never cared much about the subject so I don't know, but this link gives a good overview:

http://jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

[snow]

Thanks for the post. I do recall reading somewhere that Jews are more concerned with this life (and rightfully so). I suppose this topic will die now, considering you are the only Jew I've seen around here. :-|

[John]

All of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament died before they saw their reward...wonder what that means?

[uzi]

John wrote: All of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament died before they saw their reward...wonder what that means?

What does it mean?

I don't know if doing something for all sorts of bribes and rewards is so righteous. Of course we would like to believe that the good are rewarded for their goodness, but if that were the main reason for doing good then we couldn't really call them good or righteous, could we? Not that there is anything wrong with doing good with certain benefits in mind. After all, that is sometimes how we are taught what is good and what is bad.

And what of martyrs? I don't think that someone is much of a martyr if they die for promises of rewards or as some Muslims seem to think, in order to boink 70 virgins in heaven.

A mother defending her children from harm with her own body seems like a very basic instinctual act, and it seems good and right. And humans don't only act on instinct, so a mother though driven by strong maternal feelings still has a choice. It is the right thing to do. And it follows that defending one's family, or friends or helping the weak, is the right thing to do and that is more than just instinct.

It's difficult to explain why people do things for others. Maybe it just feels right.

If people did good deeds only to gather points in order to get their ticket to heaven then they wouldn't be that good now would they?

Doing good should be its own reward.

Certainly many good deeds are done with certain rewards in mind. I'm sure some people help others or make donations with certain benefits in mind (and there is nothing wrong with that), but the real good deeds are those done for selfless reasons. Simply because one sees a wrong and tries to right it, or sees suffering and tries to heal it.

That is why Judaism concentrates on this life. Jews should concentrate on this life. They should do good because it is the right thing to do and they have pretty good guidelines in the bible as to what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong.

[John]

If you live for this world...you'll lose Heaven and everything really. But if you live with your eyes on Heaven, then you gain both.

[John]

Quote: That is why Judaism concentrates on this life. Jews should concentrate on this life. They should do good because it is the right thing to do and they have pretty good guidelines in the bible as to what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong.

The problem is that as rational as that sounds; It just doesn't work out too well. If you concentrate on this world, then inevitably it will become you're main focus and it in itself will become the most important part of your being.

Heaven isn’t about sitting on a cloud eating grapes all day anyway, it’s about being reunited in true complete fellowship with the Lord (Hashem). That’s what keeping one’s eyes and goal towards Heaven is really all about. It's all about Him.

[uzi]

John wrote: Quote: That is why Judaism concentrates on this life. Jews should concentrate on this life. They should do good because it is the right thing to do and they have pretty good guidelines in the bible as to what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong.

The problem is that as rational as that sounds; It just doesn't work out too well. If you concentrate on this world, then inevitably it will become you're main focus and it in itself will become the most important part of your being.

Heaven isn’t about sitting on a cloud eating grapes all day anyway, it’s about being reunited in true complete fellowship with the Lord (Hashem). That’s what keeping one’s eyes and goal towards Heaven is really all about. It's all about Him.

What I'm saying is that you shouldn't focus on the rewards you think you will get in the after life. Concentrate on doing good. A Jew must live according to Gods laws because God said so, period. Not because of what we are promised in paradise.

I'm not saying that there is no after-life in Judaism, I'm just saying people aren't encouraged to dwell on that too much, at least in the Torah. That's my understanding of it at least.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: That is why Judaism concentrates on this life. Jews should concentrate on this life. They should do good because it is the right thing to do and they have pretty good guidelines in the bible as to what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong.

The problem is that as rational as that sounds; It just doesn't work out too well.

Oh? :lol: You've conducted a experiments on this, I suppose?

Quote: If you concentrate on this world, then inevitably it will become you're main focus and it in itself will become the most important part of your being.

Doh! Why do you think G-d created the world? It IS the main focus (at least for people, as opposed to angels), and the purpose of our entire being here is to elevate it. That's the difference between men and angels. Men can accomplish that. Angels can't.

[John]

uzi wrote: John wrote: Quote: That is why Judaism concentrates on this life. Jews should concentrate on this life. They should do good because it is the right thing to do and they have pretty good guidelines in the bible as to what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong.

The problem is that as rational as that sounds; It just doesn't work out too well. If you concentrate on this world, then inevitably it will become you're main focus and it in itself will become the most important part of your being.

Heaven isn’t about sitting on a cloud eating grapes all day anyway, it’s about being reunited in true complete fellowship with the Lord (Hashem). That’s what keeping one’s eyes and goal towards Heaven is really all about. It's all about Him.

What I'm saying is that you shouldn't focus on the rewards you think you will get in the after life. Concentrate on doing good. A Jew must live according to Gods laws because God said so, period. Not because of what we are promised in paradise.

I'm not saying that there is no after-life in Judaism, I'm just saying people aren't encouraged to dwell on that too much, at least in the Torah. That's my understanding of it at least.

I'm not saying that you should focus on the rewards either. It's just a little hard to get around the fact that any true relationship with God would be a reward.

It isn't wrong to seek rewards that come natural to our inherent design by God. Some interests in rewards are proper because they have a natural connection to our accomplishments and express what God made us to be. For example; money isn't a proper reward for love because it’s foreign to the desires that should accompany love. But the same can not be said about victory being the proper reward for battle. Rather than being unnaturally tacked onto an unrelated activity, victory is the consummation of the activity itself.

A desire for Heaven and to be with God is a natural desire that expresses what we were designed to be. We were designed to desire His presence and recognition, and these rewards are the natural consummations of our activity on earth.

So if you really believe that the purpose of man is to "elevate" the earth, then that's your right, but I personally don't believe that to be true. I believe that we were designed to have a loving relationship and adoration with God. I believe that the world we live in is just the testing ground for the freely choosing to fulfill what we were designed to do.

[psholtz]

uzi wrote: A Jew must live according to Gods laws because God said so, period. Not because of what we are promised in paradise.
I'm not certain that God ever really *says* this or that.. that's anthropomorphizing God in a way that maybe was necessary to make people understand the basics 3,000 years ago, but today I think most people are sophisticated enough to have a slightly better grasp of what the truth is.

Yet what you say is, broadly speaking, correct. Man must obey God's Law(s), but the key is to understand that God put these laws in place for the benefit of mankind.. these laws are there as a testament to the eternal love that God manifests throughout all of Creation. When man makes the conscious decision to live by the laws that God set down, man reaps rewards (sows a good crop, so to speak).. when man chooses to ignore God's law (either willfully, or as a consequence of his own ignorance), man reaps tares and - if continued for a sufficient amount of time - will in due time destroy himself.

[John]

Quote: but today I think most people are sophisticated enough to have a slightly better grasp of what the truth is.

It's a common misconception that people have a greater ability to grasp truth more today than they did in the past. The ancients weren't as stupid as you paint them to be. Quite the opposite in fact.....

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: but today I think most people are sophisticated enough to have a slightly better grasp of what the truth is.

It's a common misconception that people have a greater ability to grasp truth more today than they did in the past. The ancients weren't as stupid as you paint them to be. Quite the opposite in fact.....
I agree that some ancient cultures were extremely advanced... (although I find it curious you cite the Egyptians for this, since you usually regard them w/ some level of disdain, but no matter). Perhaps you're correct, though.. perhaps the masses today are no better than they were thousands of years ago. After all, who could have imagined waging two world wars and murdering hundreds of millions of people? Certainly this is not the hallmark of a civilized people.

My point though, was meant more in the sense that in ancient times - and certainly in the context we're discussing - most of the people were illiterate and the fight for survival was a daily struggle. In such an environment, it's hard to move the masses beyond the very basics where matters of philosophy and religion are concerned.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: Quote: but today I think most people are sophisticated enough to have a slightly better grasp of what the truth is.

It's a common misconception that people have a greater ability to grasp truth more today than they did in the past. The ancients weren't as stupid as you paint them to be. Quite the opposite in fact.....
I agree that some ancient cultures were extremely advanced... (although I find it curious you cite the Egyptians for this, since you usually regard them w/ some level of disdain, but no matter). Perhaps you're correct, though.. perhaps the masses today are no better than they were thousands of years ago. After all, who could have imagined waging two world wars and murdering hundreds of millions of people? Certainly this is not the hallmark of a civilized people.

My point though, was meant more in the sense that in ancient times - and certainly in the context we're discussing - most of the people were illiterate and the fight for survival was a daily struggle. In such an environment, it's hard to move the masses beyond the very basics where matters of philosophy and religion are concerned.

What does being illiterate and fighting for survival as a daily struggle have to do with being about to understand truth? And how do you figure that this has changed so much in recent times? And since your point was directed at the Hebrew culture...I would have to contest that illiteracy was quite rare in this circle.

[psholtz]

John wrote: What does being illiterate and fighting for survival as a daily struggle have to do with being about to understand truth? And how do you figure that this has changed so much in recent times? And since your point was directed at the Hebrew culture...I would have to contest that illiteracy was quite rare in this circle.
I would hazard to guess that illiteracy was quite high among the ancients, no matter who they were.

The point is, God does *not* "talk" and "speak" and say things. God simply *is*.. He is the Eternal Law by which Creation is ordered. "Prophets" who come along and say that "God says this" or "God says that" are all well and good, but you must understand they are anthropomorphizing God for the purpose of metaphor..

[John]

Quote: In such an environment, it's hard to move the masses beyond the very basics where matters of philosophy and religion are concerned.

It's a misconception that man's philosophy and religion is the key to understanding the truth. The Gospel is a very simple concept that very small children can grasp and yet in its depths can never really fully be understood by the wisest of men.

In a nut shell it's really not all that hard to grasp; God loves us and knows best, therefore it is right to trust Him in everything.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: In such an environment, it's hard to move the masses beyond the very basics where matters of philosophy and religion are concerned.

It's a misconception that man's philosophy and religion is the key to understanding the truth. The Gospel is a very simple concept that very small children can grasp and yet in its depths can never really fully be understood by the wisest of men.

In a nut shell it's really not all that hard to grasp; God loves us and knows best, therefore it is right to trust Him in everything.
John, I'm really not interested in arguing w/ you any further.

You have your views, I have my views, and I'm not interested in converting you to my convictions.. if anything, I'm more interested in converting myself to conform to and obey the Will of God.

That said, at this point, you're diverting the thread.. If you have something to add about Judaism and the afterlife, please do so.. otherwise, I don't think this is the proper forum to be bringing up the Gospel.. :roll:

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: What does being illiterate and fighting for survival as a daily struggle have to do with being about to understand truth? And how do you figure that this has changed so much in recent times? And since your point was directed at the Hebrew culture...I would have to contest that illiteracy was quite rare in this circle.
I would hazard to guess that illiteracy was quite high among the ancients, no matter who they were.



And you would be wrong. Part of the Hebrew culture was to home school their kids and be literate. That's why it was common place for a Hebrew fisherman, carpenter, or shepherd to be able to read in those days.

You need to start basing your beliefs on fact instead of how you think thing prolly were.

[John]

Besides there are clear references to the afterlife in the OT,


Job 19
23 "Oh that my words were written!
Oh that they were inscribed in a book!
24 "That with an iron stylus and lead
They were engraved in the rock forever!
25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26 "Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27 Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.
My heart faints within me!
28 "If you say, 'How shall we persecute him?'
And 'What pretext for a case against him can we find?'
29 "Then be afraid of the sword for yourselves,
For wrath brings the punishment of the sword,
So that you may know there is judgment."


Daniel 12

1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

3 "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

[Duchifas]

Quote: Besides there are clear references to the afterlife in the OT,

I don't think anyone would dispute that....

Quote: I'm not saying that you should focus on the rewards either. It's just a little hard to get around the fact that any true relationship with God would be a reward.

Yes.

Quote: It isn't wrong to seek rewards that come natural to our inherent design by God.

Nobody is saying it is wrong. It's just that there is a better way to do things, that's all. BTW, not trying to convince you or anything. You do your thing, we do ours, everyone is happy. :)