Political Crossfire Forums

[Robin Hood]

Quote:
Much of the modern Western concept of restraint in war can actually be traced back to a hugley influencial and great Muslim, Saladin. The Compassion, Mercy, Honor and Fair-play Saladin showed in his wars against the crusaders inspired many of the ideals behind chivalry. The literary King Authur himself was in many way a character spun out of crusader stories about Saladin.


Man, that's just wishful thinking....The legend of King Arthur originates from before Saladin was born, along with chilvalry.

Quote: so in a way you can kinda say the concepts and rules that try to restrain modern-war actually stem from Islam...or a Muslim anyways Wink

You can say it, but it's not true. You can believe it but you're tricking yourself. King Arthur wasa pagan concept from folk stories, very old ones. It was latter christianized. It's about as far removed from Islam as the temples of the Aztecs.

Quote: These people read God's words and know that these words cannot be written by a human being. You may think that you are the all knowing but maybe...just maybe your wrong....put that in your mind.

You, too, must admit that you're fallible.

[AshTray900]

pharaoh wrote: AshTray900 wrote: pharaoh wrote: Quote: Nothing is above criticism not even ones own religion, i think that you are taking it as a personal attack

Oh no, I didnt take it as a personal attack. I was simply annoyed by his stubbornness and arrogance. He is interpreting my own religion, his own way! Isnt that weird?! Its okay to criticize, you can criticize my religion and I can try to clear any misunderstanding and its up to you to be convinced or not. What is silly, is that when I give you my answer or my explanation, you say " your religion doesnt say so, I actually says so..." based on your understanding not even some weird or extremist imam (priest).

Quote: I can take the OT and make just as many references to something that seems evil as well.


Now I dont want to appear arrogant but the thing is about the Quran is that its all linked together. So if you take just 1 verse from the Quran that may say "kill all the unbelievers", you cant base the view of Islam on this single verse that is taken out of context cause maybe the verse before it or after it a verse says "those who have attacked you", or you can take it out of context, some verses were revealed when the muslims were already at war. That is why it is so important to be aware of these things.
On the other hand, there is no such thing in the OT, it really contains some weird and bloody verses that has nothing to do with context. That is the difference.

Quote: It seems to me that all religious texts have good and bad things in them

That is YOUR opinion. If you believe in god then you must know that god wont make you get lost or give you some "evil" rules to follow.

Quote: if muslims would like for people to stop criticizing their "book", they should rewrite it and use modern morals and the brain power of todays society rather than somebodies interpretation of the world who lived back in the times when much more evil was going on in the world. i would say this for the Christian Bible also. basically whether or not you believe in the higher power, the books serve as a moral guide so why let bad morals still be printed in them. If the higher power exists, and a man interpreted his meaning then it should seem logical that more men could revise this interpretation or rewrite it all together, to beleive that one or a few men in all of history had a special connection with the higher power and nobody else did, can, or will doesnt make any sense whatsoever.


Now that is silly. You can criticize my book as much as you want and I dont have the right to tell you to stop. You think that the Koran is not divine and so it can be rewritten and I and all muslims think that it is divine and so it can not be rewritten, especially that as god said, the koran is for all times until the very end.

not true, what is silly is that someone beleives a book full of contradictions and some bad guidance would be the only tool for sending a message from a supposed "ultimate creator" to some primitave group of people, when you read the quran you use a faith filter and thats why it seems all good to you, you are just assuming that those passages ment well, and they are not all justified by the answer "you are taking them out of context". if you wish to proove this to anybody you need to copy and paste the group of passages together here without somebody elses interpretation in brackets. and no i dont believe in god, i am an atheist and i read everything with an open perspective, im not trying to enlighten someone or to proove there is no god. i read things and take them for their literal meaning.

Again the existance of any contradiction and bad guidance is in your own opinion. You are entitled to your own opinion but to me you are very wrong. You may think that all religions were invented by men and I believe that Judaism and Christianity and Islam came from God. And yes I can justify anything you may consider "bad" in the Koran. Excuse me but you are not the only smart person on this planet, as you may think that there is no god and all religions are just one big fat lie, there are other smart people who truely believe that God do exist and that this world couldnt possibly have been created out of nothing. These people read God's words and know that these words cannot be written by a human being. You may think that you are the all knowing but maybe...just maybe your wrong....put that in your mind.

you are correct, i may be wrong, however i am attempting to logically interpret things where you have not, you say you "know it couldnt be written by men" and this is a statement of flat out acceptance without question. you assume that it is real and don't give any thought to the fact that it may be written by humans (and it really could whether you accept it or not, the human brain is completely capable of making such things up). i think that all of it is PROBABLY made up, there are parts that historically have been disproven and others that have not. i agree that i don't know if the higher power exists or not, i just see no evidence for it. you really dont have to argue for you faith , i understand that it is a matter a flat out acceptance without question. all i am trying to do is show you that to an outsider this is the way it appears, and please post some complete sets of passages from the quran to argue your claim that they are takin out of context, untill you do your argument means nothing.

[AshTray900]

take christianity for example, i was rasied in that environment. almost every sect of christianity just sweeps the negative stuff under the rug, they dont speak of them in sermons , they dont teach them to children. if they did, they would loose about 75% of their followers and eventually be treated as another cult. it is not the preists and followers of christianity that are acting in bad ways, its the stuff that is written. do you remember the story of the man that was asked to sacrifice his son as a test of faith, even though the story says god told him to stop at the last second this is still a disgustingly perverted sense of moral, basically (god wanted to know how much someone beleived in him to the point of seing if they would do evil in his name) and most followers of christianity obviously feel the same way about it because they do not mention it. but however they will not admit that it is bad directly because it just weakens their faith.

Take the story mentioned before and put it into another situation, a mother, a father, and a baby. mother wants to know if the child really loves her so asks the baby to kill the father to proove it, even though never having the intention on the child murdering the father, this is really sick. would anybody wish their parents to be like this? i know faith and love are different but the effect is still the same.

take that same circumstance and place the man and the about to be sacrificed son in this century. man claims god wishes him to kill his son, son crying daddy please dont! nobody else around sees god telling the man this or giving him a just reason as to why this needs to be done. the man would be arrested and hospitalized and the boy would be placed in the care of someone else. if we beleived in christianity 100% wouldnt it seem ok to let the man kill his son because we would beleive god to have a devine purpouse. but no we read right over that negative part and play like it wasnt even there because common sense tells us that it is wrong but we cannot even ponder the though of something wrong in our "good book" so we ignore it!

personally if i though god existed and his devine purpouse at one time was to dick around with whether or not people beleived he was real to the point of being truly evil, he should be sitting next to satan in hell! and i think others feel this way on some level too and thats why they pretend it wasnt there, and when confronted with it argue on illogical terms and "out of context" errors. and thats why i think if we here in the states want to keep the bible around we ought to omit some of that stuff, because none or almost none of us really beleive god was a part of the bad stuff anyways.

[pharaoh]

Quote: you are correct, i may be wrong, however i am attempting to logically interpret things where you have not, you say you "know it couldnt be written by men" and this is a statement of flat out acceptance without question.

Who said that I didnt question my religion? Who said Im muslim because I was born a muslim? I did question my religion for couple of years, I still prayed and lived like a muslim but I had this doubt "what if im wrong?", thank god, he guided me and now I have answers to all my questions. Now I have more than just understanding, I have faith and believe, which means the highest level of understanfing. On the other hand, what do you really know about Islam, besides some information from here and there? Do you know the exactly how prophet Muhammed lived in his 23 years as prophet, do you know anything about him before he was a prophet?
No sir, it is you who accepted that the koran was written by men without verifying if you were right or wrong.

Quote: assume that it is real and don't give any thought to the fact that it may be written by humans

As I said, I dont assume anything, it is you who assume without verifying.

Quote: (and it really could whether you accept it or not, the human brain is completely capable of making such things up).

Humm listen, do you know why Moses had the miracle of magic? Thats because his people and the Egyptians at the time were excellent masters of magic, so to impress them and to convince them that he was really a prophet from god he was so much a better magician then they were. Jesus, he could heal people, he could bring people from the dead, this was his miracle because he was sent to people who were religious and good doctors. Muhammed, he was sent to people who were excellent poets and used to recite poems alot during their daily lives. When these people heard the koran alot of them converted to Islam as soon as they heard a couple of verses from it. You wouldnt know about that because obviously you didnt read much about the history of Islam and it seems that you didnt read the Koran in the first place, so you are no position to tell me that the human mind is capable of making such a thing. The thing is about you atheists is that you think everything is possible, again, how was the world created? You come up with lame answers? Can you create life out of nothing? No Can you create life? Can you bring someone to life by using some kind of an operation? No...no...no
Dont tell me that you try to rationalize everything...dont assume that you are right and im wrong.

Quote: i agree that i don't know if the higher power exists or not, i just see no evidence for it.

No body said that god will reveal himself to you in order to believe in him. You see, thats the whole point, are you gonna believe in god without seeing or hearing him or not? In order to guide you, god sent many prophets through out history and he has given you his words. Believe it or not but the Koran is god's words. Would be a shame not to read it wouldnt it?

[pharaoh]

I will reply to your second post soon.

[AshTray900]

the human mind is capable of such things, to deny that is senseless, the quran is words in a book, every human that posseses the power of language can write a book plain and simple! and as an atheist i am contint with the fact that i cannot answer all of the big questions, i can show evidence for certain parts of how all this came to be but i cannot tell you how we got here, and that is ok with me. i do not wish to jump to extrodinary answers without extrodinary evidence backing them up, and a bunch of other people beleiving isnt enough for me, lets just get back on track post parts of the book to back your claims up. i will not be able to show you that religion is nothing more than primative superstition and you will not be able to show me that your prophet was more than a man and that there is an invisible ghost in the sky who will take care of us in eternity. im not trying to make fun here but thats what it all boils down to, beleiving in something that you cannot detect with your senses.

[AshTray900]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: you are correct, i may be wrong, however i am attempting to logically interpret things where you have not, you say you "know it couldnt be written by men" and this is a statement of flat out acceptance without question.

Who said that I didnt question my religion? Who said Im muslim because I was born a muslim? I did question my religion for couple of years, I still prayed and lived like a muslim but I had this doubt "what if im wrong?", thank god, he guided me and now I have answers to all my questions. Now I have more than just understanding, I have faith and believe, which means the highest level of understanfing. On the other hand, what do you really know about Islam, besides some information from here and there? Do you know the exactly how prophet Muhammed lived in his 23 years as prophet, do you know anything about him before he was a prophet?
No sir, it is you who accepted that the koran was written by men without verifying if you were right or wrong.

Quote: assume that it is real and don't give any thought to the fact that it may be written by humans

As I said, I dont assume anything, it is you who assume without verifying.

Quote: (and it really could whether you accept it or not, the human brain is completely capable of making such things up).

Humm listen, do you know why Moses had the miracle of magic? Thats because his people and the Egyptians at the time were excellent masters of magic, so to impress them and to convince them that he was really a prophet from god he was so much a better magician then they were. Jesus, he could heal people, he could bring people from the dead, this was his miracle because he was sent to people who were religious and good doctors. Muhammed, he was sent to people who were excellent poets and used to recite poems alot during their daily lives. When these people heard the koran alot of them converted to Islam as soon as they heard a couple of verses from it. You wouldnt know about that because obviously you didnt read much about the history of Islam and it seems that you didnt read the Koran in the first place, so you are no position to tell me that the human mind is capable of making such a thing. The thing is about you atheists is that you think everything is possible, again, how was the world created? You come up with lame answers? Can you create life out of nothing? No Can you create life? Can you bring someone to life by using some kind of an operation? No...no...no
Dont tell me that you try to rationalize everything...dont assume that you are right and im wrong.

Quote: i agree that i don't know if the higher power exists or not, i just see no evidence for it.

No body said that god will reveal himself to you in order to believe in him. You see, thats the whole point, are you gonna believe in god without seeing or hearing him or not? In order to guide you, god sent many prophets through out history and he has given you his words. Believe it or not but the Koran is god's words. Would be a shame not to read it wouldnt it?

here you go with the "magic" , you accept these things as true based solely on documentation that was written centuries before your birth when men did many more crazy things than they do now. you are ignoring the fact that magic has never been proven to exist at all in todays modern world, i know u got a few people who say this and that but they can NEVER back it up.

if 10,000 modern books written by professors with 130+ IQ's are written saying that magic doesnt exist and the term is just used amongst people who didnt understand how something worked, it seems completely illogical to assume that a handfull of acient texts by people less socially developed than we are now are the answers to everything the human race has been asking since the dawn of self awarness.

And faith and understanding have nothing to do with one another in fact i would say that faith is beleive without understanding, because if you have understanding then you use reason and logic to beleive and not faith, the word faith always gets thrown out of its real meaning when used by creationists, i will get the argument like do you have faith your car will start? and this isnt logical i have observed my car start for 1000+ days so i assume by reason that it will start again but i know eventually it will need a new starter.

[eynon]

Reason wrote: Quote:
Much of the modern Western concept of restraint in war can actually be traced back to a hugley influencial and great Muslim, Saladin. The Compassion, Mercy, Honor and Fair-play Saladin showed in his wars against the crusaders inspired many of the ideals behind chivalry. The literary King Authur himself was in many way a character spun out of crusader stories about Saladin.


Man, that's just wishful thinking....The legend of King Arthur originates from before Saladin was born, along with chilvalry.

Quote: so in a way you can kinda say the concepts and rules that try to restrain modern-war actually stem from Islam...or a Muslim anyways Wink

You can say it, but it's not true. You can believe it but you're tricking yourself. King Arthur wasa pagan concept from folk stories, very old ones. It was latter christianized. It's about as far removed from Islam as the temples of the Aztecs.

Quote: These people read God's words and know that these words cannot be written by a human being. You may think that you are the all knowing but maybe...just maybe your wrong....put that in your mind.

You, too, must admit that you're fallible.

while the Aurthurian legends don't spring from Saladin, many of the later stories include elements inspired by the the crusader's interactions with the guy.(go watch Kingdom of Heaven)

As to Authur being a Pagan story.......well.....it seems the British education system s*cks as bad as the American in terms of teaching their people their history own history

Authur was a Christian Briton, not a Pagan:
http://www.arthurian-legend.com/more-about/more-about-arthur-1.php
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/anglo_saxons/arthur_03.shtml

Infact it's believed that the historic Authur main enemy were the Pagan Saxons. Ever hear of the Battle of Badon Hill?

Christianity had been well established in Roman Britian by the end of the 4th century. By Authur's time, either the late 5th or early 6th century, Christianity was firmly embedded in British culture. Read, learn your history :http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/religion/sites/timeline/pages/religion_in_wales_3.shtml

[Robin Hood]

Quote: As to Authur being a Pagan story.......well.....it seems the British education system s*cks as bad as the American in terms of teaching their people their history own history

Arthur isn't history......

Quote: while the Aurthurian legends don't spring from Saladin, many of the later stories include elements inspired by the the crusader's interactions with the guy.(go watch Kingdom of Heaven)

Yeah let's use Kingdom of Heaven ofr a source of refernce after all Orlando Bloom did a great impression of a 60 year old (how old his charcter really was, also his character was basically irrelevant. KoH is fiction.

Quote: Authur was a Christian Briton, not a Pagan:

Arthur didn't exist.......the orignal legends had him as a pagan, because Britain was pagan at the time.....your source from the BBC doesn't deny this.

He had his own druid for X sake....

Quote: Infact it's believed that the historic Authur main enemy were the Pagan Saxons. Ever hear of the Battle of Badon Hill?

I guess you haven't realised that there's no evidence to connect a king arthur to that anyway....
Quote:
Christianity had been well established in Roman Britian by the end of the 4th century. By Authur's time, either the late 5th or early 6th century, Christianity was firmly embedded in British culture.
Paganism was widespread until much later, and dominant until the 8th century.

[pharaoh]

Quote: take christianity for example, i was rasied in that environment. almost every sect of christianity just sweeps the negative stuff under the rug, they dont speak of them in sermons , they dont teach them to children

Yeah I know but, what does that have to do with Islam? Okay there is something wrong with Christianity but that doesnt mean that all religions are also corrupt.

Quote: do you remember the story of the man that was asked to sacrifice his son as a test of faith, even though the story says god told him to stop at the last second this is still a disgustingly perverted sense of moral, basically (god wanted to know how much someone beleived in him to the point of seing if they would do evil in his name) and most followers of christianity obviously feel the same way about it because they do not mention it. but however they will not admit that it is bad directly because it just weakens their faith.


That "man" is Abraham and the moral of this story is that your love to god must be higher than any other love you have in heart. Why? Thats a long story but in short you must love god who has created you more than anyone else. This story was to teach us that a man should love his god and obey him without question. This is why god's laws should be applied without debate or question. Besides, God didnt permit Abraham to kill his own son, so I think you are really exagerating this whole matter. You just dont know how much god love each one of us, those who do good deeds and refuse to sin in fear of god. God says that whenever a slave approach to him by walking, god will get closer to him by running! God also says that god is happier than the slave when the slave repent from his sins. And there are so much more hadiths like this. Maybe if you just read them your whole understanding of god will change a bit. Do yourself a favor and read more about Islam from Islamic sources.

Quote: Take the story mentioned before and put it into another situation, a mother, a father, and a baby. mother wants to know if the child really loves her so asks the baby to kill the father to proove it, even though never having the intention on the child murdering the father, this is really sick. would anybody wish their parents to be like this? i know faith and love are different but the effect is still the same.


Ofcourse this is really sick if we human beings do it to ourselves but when god asks his slave to do it, now thats another thing. Honestly, if god showed himself to you and ordered you to do something, wont you obey him? Ofcourse you would obey. Abraham did the same thing even though he was very sad but when he succeeded in this test, god didnt let him to kill his son and raised their status that we (muslims) recite during each prayer 2 phrases or so praising Abraham. Oh man, Abraham is in a far better place than we are now, in the best place in heaven, not just because he was willing to kill his son because god asked him to, but because he spent his whole life obeying god and preaching to people, trying to guide them to the right path.

Quote: the human mind is capable of such things, to deny that is senseless, the quran is words in a book, every human that posseses the power of language can write a book plain and simple!

You still dont understand. Listen, if a 10 years old boy can write a far better book than a 5 years old one. A 20 years old boy can write a far better book than a 10 years old one. A 50 years old noble price winner in litrature can write a far better book than a 20 years old one. Now how about god who created everything and there is nothing equall to him, how if he used our language and wrote a book? This book is still written by our language, same words, but it would be far far better than anything that a man could ever write. Im telling you its true, alot of people just converted to Islam after hearing just few verses from it. Its almost unbelievable isnt it? No such thing happened in history, people converting not when they saw a miracle but when they heard words that they knew couldnt possibly be said by a man.

Quote: and as an atheist i am contint with the fact that i cannot answer all of the big questions

Great, then just stop assuming your right, listen to what the others might say, maybe they have the answers to those questions, just maybe, give them a chance.

Quote: i will not be able to show you that religion is nothing more than primative superstition and you will not be able to show me that your prophet was more than a man and that there is an invisible ghost in the sky who will take care of us in eternity.

Why not? We are here debating arent we? Im listening to what you have to say and you are listening to what I have to say. Lets continue and see where this goes.

Quote: im not trying to make fun here but thats what it all boils down to, beleiving in something that you cannot detect with your senses.

Yes, thats what I already said. This life is about believing in god even though you will never see him. Think about it, what is the purpose of a test if you are allowed to cheat? This life is a test. You may not believe in god,fine, but you still cant explain why or how we are here. That means that your own understanding cannot explain this existance. Maybe its time you listen to some crazy people who say that they know the answers, maybe they are not as crazy or as stupid as you think.

Quote: here you go with the "magic" , you accept these things as true based solely on documentation that was written centuries before your birth when men did many more crazy things than they do now. you are ignoring the fact that magic has never been proven to exist at all in todays modern world, i know u got a few people who say this and that but they can NEVER back it up.


How can you prove a thing like magic?! Surely scientists cannot prove it. So how you want it to be proven? Man, magic like vodoo magic is real. You can doubt its existance, and I dont think thats wrong considering that you are an atheist but im sure if you make a little trip to Africa or Jamaica to search for vodoo magic, you will see it. :shock:
(That sounds silly I know :) )

Quote: if 10,000 modern books written by professors with 130+ IQ's are written saying that magic doesnt exist and the term is just used amongst people who didnt understand how something worked, it seems completely illogical to assume that a handfull of acient texts by people less socially developed than we are now are the answers to everything the human race has been asking since the dawn of self awarness.


C'mon how would some professors with 130+ IQ's know for sure that magic doesnt exist?! Is it because they are so smart? So what? Im not dumb either and I say it exists. So what? Its just opinions, human beings NEVER agreed on anything. Put that in mind.

[INDEPENDENT 18]

VoltaireUSA wrote: Okay, I'll admit, I don't believe in Islam; I'm Christian, but why is it that we Christians, Catholics, etc., slam Islam around? I mean, the Bible teaches peace through tolerance and unity through acceptance, and the fact that we have free will!

That sounds pretty politically correct. The bible says to respect everyone. But it stresses unity through Christians, not Muslims. I don't have anything against Muslims or minorities but they are the reason Christianity is being ripped out of America. We certainly wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings by saying Merry Christmas or Under God. We are becoming so diverse that it's tearing us apart. If you are a Christian you would respect Muslims and let them stay within their own country. That shows honor and respect. We shouldn't be so tolerant and let a flood of immigrants come and rip away our Christian heritage. We should only allow Christians to come into America like how we always did until it was changed by liberals.

Quote: Just because the Qur'an is followed by some radicals too harshly doesn't mean that all muslims are radical extremists bent on enslaving everyone under Islam! Frankly, most muslims are more liberal with the Qur'an than bin laden. Again frankly, most muslims want the same as every other person that practices religion: the ability to be left in peace while they practice, not to be harassed b/c of their beliefs, to be accepted as peaceful, non-violent people, and to allow to spread their religion (peacefully). It's not as if every muslim is a Sunni. Now, of course, crime-commiters must be punished, but we shouldn't blame the religion. If we blamed the Christian religion for every crime practiced in the name of our God or Christ, We'd be looking at a very guilty world. I accept Islam as others' beliefs, rather than a cult breeding terrorists, and I doubt that this 'War on Terror' will ever matter unless the rest of the world (in particular, the West) doesn't recognize that as a whole.

Islam is not a religion of peace. That doesn't mean we should hate every Muslim but we should acknowledge this fact and stop catering to them. Where ever there is a large group of Muslims within a country there are problems. Despite what liberal schools teach you history will show you that people with different religions dont get along.

[pharaoh]

INDEPENDENT 18 wrote: VoltaireUSA wrote: Okay, I'll admit, I don't believe in Islam; I'm Christian, but why is it that we Christians, Catholics, etc., slam Islam around? I mean, the Bible teaches peace through tolerance and unity through acceptance, and the fact that we have free will!

That sounds pretty politically correct. The bible says to respect everyone. But it stresses unity through Christians, not Muslims. I don't have anything against Muslims or minorities but they are the reason Christianity is being ripped out of America. We certainly wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings by saying Merry Christmas or Under God. We are becoming so diverse that it's tearing us apart. If you are a Christian you would respect Muslims and let them stay within their own country. That shows honor and respect. We shouldn't be so tolerant and let a flood of immigrants come and rip away our Christian heritage. We should only allow Christians to come into America like how we always did until it was changed by liberals.

Quote: Just because the Qur'an is followed by some radicals too harshly doesn't mean that all muslims are radical extremists bent on enslaving everyone under Islam! Frankly, most muslims are more liberal with the Qur'an than bin laden. Again frankly, most muslims want the same as every other person that practices religion: the ability to be left in peace while they practice, not to be harassed b/c of their beliefs, to be accepted as peaceful, non-violent people, and to allow to spread their religion (peacefully). It's not as if every muslim is a Sunni. Now, of course, crime-commiters must be punished, but we shouldn't blame the religion. If we blamed the Christian religion for every crime practiced in the name of our God or Christ, We'd be looking at a very guilty world. I accept Islam as others' beliefs, rather than a cult breeding terrorists, and I doubt that this 'War on Terror' will ever matter unless the rest of the world (in particular, the West) doesn't recognize that as a whole.

Islam is not a religion of peace. That doesn't mean we should hate every Muslim but we should acknowledge this fact and stop catering to them. Where ever there is a large group of Muslims within a country there are problems. Despite what liberal schools teach you history will show you that people with different religions dont get along.

Are you 18 years old?

[AshTray900]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: take christianity for example, i was rasied in that environment. almost every sect of christianity just sweeps the negative stuff under the rug, they dont speak of them in sermons , they dont teach them to children

Yeah I know but, what does that have to do with Islam? Okay there is something wrong with Christianity but that doesnt mean that all religions are also corrupt.

Quote: do you remember the story of the man that was asked to sacrifice his son as a test of faith, even though the story says god told him to stop at the last second this is still a disgustingly perverted sense of moral, basically (god wanted to know how much someone beleived in him to the point of seing if they would do evil in his name) and most followers of christianity obviously feel the same way about it because they do not mention it. but however they will not admit that it is bad directly because it just weakens their faith.


That "man" is Abraham and the moral of this story is that your love to god must be higher than any other love you have in heart. Why? Thats a long story but in short you must love god who has created you more than anyone else. This story was to teach us that a man should love his god and obey him without question. This is why god's laws should be applied without debate or question. Besides, God didnt permit Abraham to kill his own son, so I think you are really exagerating this whole matter. You just dont know how much god love each one of us, those who do good deeds and refuse to sin in fear of god. God says that whenever a slave approach to him by walking, god will get closer to him by running! God also says that god is happier than the slave when the slave repent from his sins. And there are so much more hadiths like this. Maybe if you just read them your whole understanding of god will change a bit. Do yourself a favor and read more about Islam from Islamic sources.

Quote: Take the story mentioned before and put it into another situation, a mother, a father, and a baby. mother wants to know if the child really loves her so asks the baby to kill the father to proove it, even though never having the intention on the child murdering the father, this is really sick. would anybody wish their parents to be like this? i know faith and love are different but the effect is still the same.


Ofcourse this is really sick if we human beings do it to ourselves but when god asks his slave to do it, now thats another thing. Honestly, if god showed himself to you and ordered you to do something, wont you obey him? Ofcourse you would obey. Abraham did the same thing even though he was very sad but when he succeeded in this test, god didnt let him to kill his son and raised their status that we (muslims) recite during each prayer 2 phrases or so praising Abraham. Oh man, Abraham is in a far better place than we are now, in the best place in heaven, not just because he was willing to kill his son because god asked him to, but because he spent his whole life obeying god and preaching to people, trying to guide them to the right path.

Quote: the human mind is capable of such things, to deny that is senseless, the quran is words in a book, every human that posseses the power of language can write a book plain and simple!

You still dont understand. Listen, if a 10 years old boy can write a far better book than a 5 years old one. A 20 years old boy can write a far better book than a 10 years old one. A 50 years old noble price winner in litrature can write a far better book than a 20 years old one. Now how about god who created everything and there is nothing equall to him, how if he used our language and wrote a book? This book is still written by our language, same words, but it would be far far better than anything that a man could ever write. Im telling you its true, alot of people just converted to Islam after hearing just few verses from it. Its almost unbelievable isnt it? No such thing happened in history, people converting not when they saw a miracle but when they heard words that they knew couldnt possibly be said by a man.

Quote: and as an atheist i am contint with the fact that i cannot answer all of the big questions

Great, then just stop assuming your right, listen to what the others might say, maybe they have the answers to those questions, just maybe, give them a chance.

Quote: i will not be able to show you that religion is nothing more than primative superstition and you will not be able to show me that your prophet was more than a man and that there is an invisible ghost in the sky who will take care of us in eternity.

Why not? We are here debating arent we? Im listening to what you have to say and you are listening to what I have to say. Lets continue and see where this goes.

Quote: im not trying to make fun here but thats what it all boils down to, beleiving in something that you cannot detect with your senses.

Yes, thats what I already said. This life is about believing in god even though you will never see him. Think about it, what is the purpose of a test if you are allowed to cheat? This life is a test. You may not believe in god,fine, but you still cant explain why or how we are here. That means that your own understanding cannot explain this existance. Maybe its time you listen to some crazy people who say that they know the answers, maybe they are not as crazy or as stupid as you think.

Quote: here you go with the "magic" , you accept these things as true based solely on documentation that was written centuries before your birth when men did many more crazy things than they do now. you are ignoring the fact that magic has never been proven to exist at all in todays modern world, i know u got a few people who say this and that but they can NEVER back it up.


How can you prove a thing like magic?! Surely scientists cannot prove it. So how you want it to be proven? Man, magic like vodoo magic is real. You can doubt its existance, and I dont think thats wrong considering that you are an atheist but im sure if you make a little trip to Africa or Jamaica to search for vodoo magic, you will see it. :shock:
(That sounds silly I know :) )

Quote: if 10,000 modern books written by professors with 130+ IQ's are written saying that magic doesnt exist and the term is just used amongst people who didnt understand how something worked, it seems completely illogical to assume that a handfull of acient texts by people less socially developed than we are now are the answers to everything the human race has been asking since the dawn of self awarness.


C'mon how would some professors with 130+ IQ's know for sure that magic doesnt exist?! Is it because they are so smart? So what? Im not dumb either and I say it exists. So what? Its just opinions, human beings NEVER agreed on anything. Put that in mind.

you are taking religion in the literal sense and i cannot even contemplate that because so much evidence has been show to disproove parts of all religion literally.

the only interpretation of religion that makes any sense whatso ever is that god threw down the first dominoe and let life come about as scientists have show it most likely did and may have inspired a man or two to write down messages for him, but voodoo magic, ghosts, goblins, toothfairys etc, these have been practically DISPROOVEN! by the intellectual world we live in today, to entertain these kind of thoughts is an act of insanity. and i would say that if you beleive in voodoo magic that would classify you as dumb in my book.. no offense just being honest here.

i cannot explain how the universe got here, sceince has some very good theories of planet formation and chemical reations in the presence of stimulus like electricity. and life is nothing more than carbon, chemical reations and electricity so these are not lame ideas by any means. and in all actuality darwins ideas have had so much evidence in their case that even most christians in the u.s. dont try to deny them. i mean our country beleives in them to the extent of requireing teachers to teach them.

i may not be able to tell you how everything got here, but i have an interesting view on why people beleive in god as you do.
done in chronological order:

1. life begins as nothing more than prototype cells.

2. life is progressing to the point of animal life, movement, and carnivorous behaviors.

3. animals who didnt avoid being eaten (death) died and didn raise young. (the only ones left to continue the gene pool were those which avoided being eaten (death)

4. life is at a point where almost every multi cellular animal avoids death by some means

5. self awarnes begains to come about in the ape side of life.

6. pre humans are looking at their reflections and realizing that the exist. in that realization they look at other humans an figure they exist too. they see other animals die and eventually come to the conclusions that they will die too.

7. having an overwhelming desire to not die, and realizing that you will die no matter what put the brain in a state of constant stress and insanity.

8. people with a greater self awarness tended to die out due to going crazy and not being able to function well, the ones that were left were the ones who could passify their brain and ignore the reality of things. these people basically lived in a sort of made up reality.

9. the made up reality is what we call the spiritual world today, nothing more than evolutions response to our self awarness.

10. so basically the human mind is pre program through evolution of thousands and thousands of years to beleive in god (and this would suggest that god is most likely only real in our immaginations)

[pharaoh]

Quote: you are taking religion in the literal sense and i cannot even contemplate that because so much evidence has been show to disproove parts of all religion literally.


Care to elaborate? And lets be more specific, what "evidence" do you have that disproove something about Islam?

Quote: the only interpretation of religion that makes any sense whatso ever is that god threw down the first dominoe and let life come about as scientists have show it most likely did and may have inspired a man or two to write down messages for him

Thats true to some extend. Ofcourse there was no evolution for human beings but maybe with some animals or maybe all of them, that wont matter. Remember that scientists havent found the "missing link" between a man and a monkey or whatever was the first form.

Quote: but voodoo magic, ghosts, goblins, toothfairys etc, these have been practically DISPROOVEN! by the intellectual world we live in today, to entertain these kind of thoughts is an act of insanity. and i would say that if you beleive in voodoo magic that would classify you as dumb in my book.. no offense just being honest here.


Maybe I am stupid and maybe im not. Your a rational man, thats a good thing but remember (again) that scientests nowadays cant prove or explain lots of things. Like for example, a couple of days ago I had a dream, in short, I saw a calender on a wall in my university, it showed a certain date. When I woke up I just knew that something will happen in that day. A couple of hours later a friend called me and told me that there will be this special party at the univ in that same date. That couldnt be a coincidence and it wasnt the first time either. Can science explain such thing? No, because we are talking about things that doesnt have to do with anything concerning science. Same with magic, it just cannot be "practically disproven" and it cannot be practically proven either. Maybe its one of those things that when you see it you will believe it, but atomes for instance are there but you cant see them, however, you can deduct their existance, you can also deducte god's existance.

Quote: i cannot explain how the universe got here, sceince has some very good theories of planet formation and chemical reations in the presence of stimulus like electricity. and life is nothing more than carbon, chemical reations and electricity so these are not lame ideas by any means. and in all actuality darwins ideas have had so much evidence in their case that even most christians in the u.s. dont try to deny them. i mean our country beleives in them to the extent of requireing teachers to teach them.


They are all theories as you said, just theories and nothing more, cannot be proven. Man I could come up with some theories of my own about something, no big deal. But are these theories correct? Thats the question. Until now scientists cannot prove anything, scientists cannot create life even though life is nothing more than carbon and chemical reactions and electricity as you said. No big deal huh? So why the heck no body is creating life until now.
Once, a few years ago, someone posted on a forum a phrase that I really liked, he said that the creation of the world by the atheist style is like throwing all kinds of metal and other resources together and they will all combine together to form a nuclear reactor all by their own.
Darwin?? Again where is the missing link? Remember that Darwin theory about evolution came to his mind when he saw some situations where certain insects and animals that were different from the others in colour or something else died because of these differences. Darwin couldnt prove anything, he was just one of your favorite open minded scientists that came up with his own theory of creation and alot of people believed in it. Could it be proven without doubt? No.

Quote: i may not be able to tell you how everything got here, but i have an interesting view on why people beleive in god as you do.
done in chronological order:

1. life begins as nothing more than prototype cells.


What interests me is how these loony cells were created? All by themselves?!

Quote: 2. life is progressing to the point of animal life, movement, and carnivorous behaviors.

3. animals who didnt avoid being eaten (death) died and didn raise young. (the only ones left to continue the gene pool were those which avoided being eaten (death)

4. life is at a point where almost every multi cellular animal avoids death by some means

5. self awarnes begains to come about in the ape side of life.

6. pre humans are looking at their reflections and realizing that the exist. in that realization they look at other humans an figure they exist too. they see other animals die and eventually come to the conclusions that they will die too.

7. having an overwhelming desire to not die, and realizing that you will die no matter what put the brain in a state of constant stress and insanity.

8. people with a greater self awarness tended to die out due to going crazy and not being able to function well, the ones that were left were the ones who could passify their brain and ignore the reality of things. these people basically lived in a sort of made up reality.

9. the made up reality is what we call the spiritual world today, nothing more than evolutions response to our self awarness.

10. so basically the human mind is pre program through evolution of thousands and thousands of years to beleive in god (and this would suggest that god is most likely only real in our immaginations)

I have another theory too that is much shorter than yours and right to the point: Human beings, being very intelligent creatures couldnt deal with the fact that one day they will eventually die, so in order to raise the moral of other people, some people came up with the idea of "religion" where everybody should be nice to each other so they can live longer and be happier and if they are good enough they will go to heaven and live happily ever after. Nice theory right? Its nice but its wrong!
Just like a good sci fi movie, it makes you think or wonder a bit but are the topics of these movies true? Dont think so.

[AshTray900]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: you are taking religion in the literal sense and i cannot even contemplate that because so much evidence has been show to disproove parts of all religion literally.


Care to elaborate? And lets be more specific, what "evidence" do you have that disproove something about Islam? if i am not mistaken Islam accepts the old and new testament as part of history

Quote: the only interpretation of religion that makes any sense whatso ever is that god threw down the first dominoe and let life come about as scientists have show it most likely did and may have inspired a man or two to write down messages for him

Thats true to some extend. Ofcourse there was no evolution for human beings but maybe with some animals or maybe all of them, that wont matter. Remember that scientists havent found the "missing link" between a man and a monkey or whatever was the first form. they have found many, just because one is missing doesnt make the theory completely invalid

Quote: but voodoo magic, ghosts, goblins, toothfairys etc, these have been practically DISPROOVEN! by the intellectual world we live in today, to entertain these kind of thoughts is an act of insanity. and i would say that if you beleive in voodoo magic that would classify you as dumb in my book.. no offense just being honest here.


Maybe I am stupid and maybe im not. Your a rational man, thats a good thing but remember (again) that scientests nowadays cant prove or explain lots of things the only thing that is certain is that we exist, everything else is based on probability (do you know for sure that your brain isnt in a vat somewhere being fed input and responding to your output, there would be no way to distinguish between that and the more obvious scenario but we dont accept it as being real because there is little evidence for it. Like for example, a couple of days ago I had a dream, in short, I saw a calender on a wall in my university, it showed a certain date. When I woke up I just knew that something will happen in that day. A couple of hours later a friend called me and told me that there will be this special party at the univ in that same date. That couldnt be a coincidence and it wasnt the first time either. Can science explain such thing? No, because we are talking about things that doesnt have to do with anything concerning science. Same with magic, it just cannot be "practically disproven" and it cannot be practically proven either. Maybe its one of those things that when you see it you will believe it, but atomes for instance are there but you cant see them, however, you can deduct their existance, you can also deducte god's existance. these things can be easily explained, coincidence, that is the answer, you dream of a date that something will happen, well tell me on how many days does something unique not happen???

Quote: i cannot explain how the universe got here, sceince has some very good theories of planet formation and chemical reations in the presence of stimulus like electricity. and life is nothing more than carbon, chemical reations and electricity so these are not lame ideas by any means. and in all actuality darwins ideas have had so much evidence in their case that even most christians in the u.s. dont try to deny them. i mean our country beleives in them to the extent of requireing teachers to teach them.


They are all theories as you said, just theories and nothing more, cannot be proven. Man I could come up with some theories of my own about something, no big deal. But are these theories correct? Thats the question. Until now scientists cannot prove anything, scientists cannot create life even though life is nothing more than carbon and chemical reactions and electricity as you said. No big deal huh? So why the heck no body is creating life until now.
Once, a few years ago, someone posted on a forum a phrase that I really liked, he said that the creation of the world by the atheist style is like throwing all kinds of metal and other resources together and they will all combine together to form a nuclear reactor all by their own.
Darwin?? Again where is the missing link? Remember that Darwin theory about evolution came to his mind when he saw some situations where certain insects and animals that were different from the others in colour or something else died because of these differences. Darwin couldnt prove anything, he was just one of your favorite open minded scientists that came up with his own theory of creation and alot of people believed in it. Could it be proven without doubt? No. scientist cannot create life because life as we know it now, only comes from life, scientist have created the protocells (if they let their created cells evolve for millions of years a whole set of organisms would probably exist, and cloning is a perfect example of how scientist can facilitate the creation of life. what you think of life is chemical reactions tweak over ages, we are a catalyst to convert food into s**t and O2 into CO2. we have altered dna and it wont be long before we can create a complete set of dna, the biggest question will be how to go about coding it

Quote: i may not be able to tell you how everything got here, but i have an interesting view on why people beleive in god as you do.
done in chronological order:

1. life begins as nothing more than prototype cells.


What interests me is how these loony cells were created? All by themselves?! in the prescence of lightning, and they remade them in a lab with high voltage

Quote: 2. life is progressing to the point of animal life, movement, and carnivorous behaviors.

3. animals who didnt avoid being eaten (death) died and didn raise young. (the only ones left to continue the gene pool were those which avoided being eaten (death)

4. life is at a point where almost every multi cellular animal avoids death by some means

5. self awarnes begains to come about in the ape side of life.

6. pre humans are looking at their reflections and realizing that the exist. in that realization they look at other humans an figure they exist too. they see other animals die and eventually come to the conclusions that they will die too.

7. having an overwhelming desire to not die, and realizing that you will die no matter what put the brain in a state of constant stress and insanity.

8. people with a greater self awarness tended to die out due to going crazy and not being able to function well, the ones that were left were the ones who could passify their brain and ignore the reality of things. these people basically lived in a sort of made up reality.

9. the made up reality is what we call the spiritual world today, nothing more than evolutions response to our self awarness.

10. so basically the human mind is pre program through evolution of thousands and thousands of years to beleive in god (and this would suggest that god is most likely only real in our immaginations)

I have another theory too that is much shorter than yours and right to the point: Human beings, being very intelligent creatures couldnt deal with the fact that one day they will eventually die, so in order to raise the moral of other people, some people came up with the idea of "religion" where everybody should be nice to each other so they can live longer and be happier and if they are good enough they will go to heaven and live happily ever after. Nice theory right? Its nice but its wrong! you dont know that just as i cant proove god isnt real
Just like a good sci fi movie, it makes you think or wonder a bit but are the topics of these movies true? Dont think so.

and as i said this is my theory i dont expect you to share my views or to rethink yours, i am just allowing you to see them. you cannot be certain i am wrong no more than i can be certain you are wrong.

in your favor, the only thing i really dont have a solid theory on is what makes us differently experience things, for example if i take my brain and make and exact copy of it at this point in my life and put it in a clone of me there would be two thinking entities exactly alike but with no connection, the only thing i can figure is that our internal experience is not only a product of the data but also the matter that the data is stored on. you would call this a soul, i personally think this is a logic trap that we have a hard time understanding and our internal awarness is just a product of the energy in our brains, the neuronal pathways, and the matter in which makes up the media, so if one day we can "copy" brains, we still must die and the only thing that surpasses us is our knowledge be used by another internally thinking entity.

the only question really is why are we internally experienceing the data that passes through our processor instead of just reacting without this little window of sight and sound and thought that we are aware of like we assume our computers process data with no experience. this is the only thing that seems to make life unique, without it i would say we have allready created life when we designed the computer. i think this is a logic trap though and a question of self awareness that we don't understand. for example what would it take for the computer to realize that it is there sitting on my desk lol;)

when we as a race figure this out is when "real" artificial intelligence is created. its not that the pc is laking in power, space, or memory its that internal experience that the computer is lacking from becoming self aware

[pharaoh]

AshTray900 wrote: pharaoh wrote: Quote: you are taking religion in the literal sense and i cannot even contemplate that because so much evidence has been show to disproove parts of all religion literally.


Care to elaborate? And lets be more specific, what "evidence" do you have that disproove something about Islam? if i am not mistaken Islam accepts the old and new testament as part of history

Quote: the only interpretation of religion that makes any sense whatso ever is that god threw down the first dominoe and let life come about as scientists have show it most likely did and may have inspired a man or two to write down messages for him

Thats true to some extend. Ofcourse there was no evolution for human beings but maybe with some animals or maybe all of them, that wont matter. Remember that scientists havent found the "missing link" between a man and a monkey or whatever was the first form. they have found many, just because one is missing doesnt make the theory completely invalid

Quote: but voodoo magic, ghosts, goblins, toothfairys etc, these have been practically DISPROOVEN! by the intellectual world we live in today, to entertain these kind of thoughts is an act of insanity. and i would say that if you beleive in voodoo magic that would classify you as dumb in my book.. no offense just being honest here.


Maybe I am stupid and maybe im not. Your a rational man, thats a good thing but remember (again) that scientests nowadays cant prove or explain lots of things. Like for example, a couple of days ago I had a dream, in short, I saw a calender on a wall in my university, it showed a certain date. When I woke up I just knew that something will happen in that day. A couple of hours later a friend called me and told me that there will be this special party at the univ in that same date. That couldnt be a coincidence and it wasnt the first time either. Can science explain such thing? No, because we are talking about things that doesnt have to do with anything concerning science. Same with magic, it just cannot be "practically disproven" and it cannot be practically proven either. Maybe its one of those things that when you see it you will believe it, but atomes for instance are there but you cant see them, however, you can deduct their existance, you can also deducte god's existance. these things can be easily explained, coincidence, that is the answer, you dream of a date that something will happen, well tell me on how many days does something unique not happen???

Quote: i cannot explain how the universe got here, sceince has some very good theories of planet formation and chemical reations in the presence of stimulus like electricity. and life is nothing more than carbon, chemical reations and electricity so these are not lame ideas by any means. and in all actuality darwins ideas have had so much evidence in their case that even most christians in the u.s. dont try to deny them. i mean our country beleives in them to the extent of requireing teachers to teach them.


They are all theories as you said, just theories and nothing more, cannot be proven. Man I could come up with some theories of my own about something, no big deal. But are these theories correct? Thats the question. Until now scientists cannot prove anything, scientists cannot create life even though life is nothing more than carbon and chemical reactions and electricity as you said. No big deal huh? So why the heck no body is creating life until now.
Once, a few years ago, someone posted on a forum a phrase that I really liked, he said that the creation of the world by the atheist style is like throwing all kinds of metal and other resources together and they will all combine together to form a nuclear reactor all by their own.
Darwin?? Again where is the missing link? Remember that Darwin theory about evolution came to his mind when he saw some situations where certain insects and animals that were different from the others in colour or something else died because of these differences. Darwin couldnt prove anything, he was just one of your favorite open minded scientists that came up with his own theory of creation and alot of people believed in it. Could it be proven without doubt? No. scientist cannot create life because life as we know it now, only comes from life, scientist have created the protocells, and cloning is a perfect example of how scientist can facilitate the creation of life

Quote: i may not be able to tell you how everything got here, but i have an interesting view on why people beleive in god as you do.
done in chronological order:

1. life begins as nothing more than prototype cells.


What interests me is how these loony cells were created? All by themselves?! in the prescence of lightning, and they remade them in a lab with high voltage

Quote: 2. life is progressing to the point of animal life, movement, and carnivorous behaviors.

3. animals who didnt avoid being eaten (death) died and didn raise young. (the only ones left to continue the gene pool were those which avoided being eaten (death)

4. life is at a point where almost every multi cellular animal avoids death by some means

5. self awarnes begains to come about in the ape side of life.

6. pre humans are looking at their reflections and realizing that the exist. in that realization they look at other humans an figure they exist too. they see other animals die and eventually come to the conclusions that they will die too.

7. having an overwhelming desire to not die, and realizing that you will die no matter what put the brain in a state of constant stress and insanity.

8. people with a greater self awarness tended to die out due to going crazy and not being able to function well, the ones that were left were the ones who could passify their brain and ignore the reality of things. these people basically lived in a sort of made up reality.

9. the made up reality is what we call the spiritual world today, nothing more than evolutions response to our self awarness.

10. so basically the human mind is pre program through evolution of thousands and thousands of years to beleive in god (and this would suggest that god is most likely only real in our immaginations)

I have another theory too that is much shorter than yours and right to the point: Human beings, being very intelligent creatures couldnt deal with the fact that one day they will eventually die, so in order to raise the moral of other people, some people came up with the idea of "religion" where everybody should be nice to each other so they can live longer and be happier and if they are good enough they will go to heaven and live happily ever after. Nice theory right? Its nice but its wrong! you dont know that just as i cant proove god isnt real
Just like a good sci fi movie, it makes you think or wonder a bit but are the topics of these movies true? Dont think so.

and as i said this is my theory i dont expect you to share my views or to rethink yours, i am just allowing you to see them. you cannot be certain i am wrong no more than i can be certain you are wrong.

I think you misunderstood me. I really cant prove that god existe because in order to prove something it must be in a physical form. However, we cant see all the atoms around us either, but we deduced their existance, just like gravity and other things. Same thing concerning god, we can neither see nor hear him but we can deduce his existance from all the "evidences" that we have. These evidences are mainly the holy books.

[AshTray900]

pharaoh wrote: AshTray900 wrote: pharaoh wrote: Quote: you are taking religion in the literal sense and i cannot even contemplate that because so much evidence has been show to disproove parts of all religion literally.


Care to elaborate? And lets be more specific, what "evidence" do you have that disproove something about Islam? if i am not mistaken Islam accepts the old and new testament as part of history

Quote: the only interpretation of religion that makes any sense whatso ever is that god threw down the first dominoe and let life come about as scientists have show it most likely did and may have inspired a man or two to write down messages for him

Thats true to some extend. Ofcourse there was no evolution for human beings but maybe with some animals or maybe all of them, that wont matter. Remember that scientists havent found the "missing link" between a man and a monkey or whatever was the first form. they have found many, just because one is missing doesnt make the theory completely invalid

Quote: but voodoo magic, ghosts, goblins, toothfairys etc, these have been practically DISPROOVEN! by the intellectual world we live in today, to entertain these kind of thoughts is an act of insanity. and i would say that if you beleive in voodoo magic that would classify you as dumb in my book.. no offense just being honest here.


Maybe I am stupid and maybe im not. Your a rational man, thats a good thing but remember (again) that scientests nowadays cant prove or explain lots of things. Like for example, a couple of days ago I had a dream, in short, I saw a calender on a wall in my university, it showed a certain date. When I woke up I just knew that something will happen in that day. A couple of hours later a friend called me and told me that there will be this special party at the univ in that same date. That couldnt be a coincidence and it wasnt the first time either. Can science explain such thing? No, because we are talking about things that doesnt have to do with anything concerning science. Same with magic, it just cannot be "practically disproven" and it cannot be practically proven either. Maybe its one of those things that when you see it you will believe it, but atomes for instance are there but you cant see them, however, you can deduct their existance, you can also deducte god's existance. these things can be easily explained, coincidence, that is the answer, you dream of a date that something will happen, well tell me on how many days does something unique not happen???

Quote: i cannot explain how the universe got here, sceince has some very good theories of planet formation and chemical reations in the presence of stimulus like electricity. and life is nothing more than carbon, chemical reations and electricity so these are not lame ideas by any means. and in all actuality darwins ideas have had so much evidence in their case that even most christians in the u.s. dont try to deny them. i mean our country beleives in them to the extent of requireing teachers to teach them.


They are all theories as you said, just theories and nothing more, cannot be proven. Man I could come up with some theories of my own about something, no big deal. But are these theories correct? Thats the question. Until now scientists cannot prove anything, scientists cannot create life even though life is nothing more than carbon and chemical reactions and electricity as you said. No big deal huh? So why the heck no body is creating life until now.
Once, a few years ago, someone posted on a forum a phrase that I really liked, he said that the creation of the world by the atheist style is like throwing all kinds of metal and other resources together and they will all combine together to form a nuclear reactor all by their own.
Darwin?? Again where is the missing link? Remember that Darwin theory about evolution came to his mind when he saw some situations where certain insects and animals that were different from the others in colour or something else died because of these differences. Darwin couldnt prove anything, he was just one of your favorite open minded scientists that came up with his own theory of creation and alot of people believed in it. Could it be proven without doubt? No. scientist cannot create life because life as we know it now, only comes from life, scientist have created the protocells, and cloning is a perfect example of how scientist can facilitate the creation of life

Quote: i may not be able to tell you how everything got here, but i have an interesting view on why people beleive in god as you do.
done in chronological order:

1. life begins as nothing more than prototype cells.


What interests me is how these loony cells were created? All by themselves?! in the prescence of lightning, and they remade them in a lab with high voltage

Quote: 2. life is progressing to the point of animal life, movement, and carnivorous behaviors.

3. animals who didnt avoid being eaten (death) died and didn raise young. (the only ones left to continue the gene pool were those which avoided being eaten (death)

4. life is at a point where almost every multi cellular animal avoids death by some means

5. self awarnes begains to come about in the ape side of life.

6. pre humans are looking at their reflections and realizing that the exist. in that realization they look at other humans an figure they exist too. they see other animals die and eventually come to the conclusions that they will die too.

7. having an overwhelming desire to not die, and realizing that you will die no matter what put the brain in a state of constant stress and insanity.

8. people with a greater self awarness tended to die out due to going crazy and not being able to function well, the ones that were left were the ones who could passify their brain and ignore the reality of things. these people basically lived in a sort of made up reality.

9. the made up reality is what we call the spiritual world today, nothing more than evolutions response to our self awarness.

10. so basically the human mind is pre program through evolution of thousands and thousands of years to beleive in god (and this would suggest that god is most likely only real in our immaginations)

I have another theory too that is much shorter than yours and right to the point: Human beings, being very intelligent creatures couldnt deal with the fact that one day they will eventually die, so in order to raise the moral of other people, some people came up with the idea of "religion" where everybody should be nice to each other so they can live longer and be happier and if they are good enough they will go to heaven and live happily ever after. Nice theory right? Its nice but its wrong! you dont know that just as i cant proove god isnt real
Just like a good sci fi movie, it makes you think or wonder a bit but are the topics of these movies true? Dont think so.

and as i said this is my theory i dont expect you to share my views or to rethink yours, i am just allowing you to see them. you cannot be certain i am wrong no more than i can be certain you are wrong.

I think you misunderstood me. I really cant prove that god existe because in order to prove something it must be in a physical form. However, we cant see all the atoms around us either, but we deduced their existance, just like gravity and other things. Same thing concerning god, we can neither see nor hear him but we can deduce his existance from all the "evidences" that we have. These evidences are mainly the holy books.

you are right, from the holy books?? i can go outside and view the reults of gravity but i dont assume that somebody lives in the center of the planet with a big magnet making sure all things do not float away. we know that something we termed gravity exists but whe dont know how it works 100%, just like we know life(not god) exists, but we dont know how it works or what made it. life is the product that you think god is resp for, gravity is the product that some people think gravitrons are responsible for, but we have no evidence for gravitrons just as we have none for god, we are looking a "finished" products, we cannot asume we know how they got there, and to me science has a far better explanation than religion to lifes origin.

ultimately i dont beleive in god for three reasons:
1. it makes no sense to me
2. i see no evidence for it
3. i dont need to beleive in it to feel good

[AshTray900]

pharaoh, go back up, i added more stuff i have a bad habbit of submitting then re editing. let me know what you think about what i have added and what you think about our internal conciousness

[eynon]

Reason wrote: Quote: As to Authur being a Pagan story.......well.....it seems the British education system s*cks as bad as the American in terms of teaching their people their history own history

Arthur isn't history......

Quote: while the Aurthurian legends don't spring from Saladin, many of the later stories include elements inspired by the the crusader's interactions with the guy.(go watch Kingdom of Heaven)

Yeah let's use Kingdom of Heaven ofr a source of refernce after all Orlando Bloom did a great impression of a 60 year old (how old his charcter really was, also his character was basically irrelevant. KoH is fiction.

Quote: Authur was a Christian Briton, not a Pagan:

Arthur didn't exist.......the orignal legends had him as a pagan, because Britain was pagan at the time.....your source from the BBC doesn't deny this.

He had his own druid for X sake....

Quote: Infact it's believed that the historic Authur main enemy were the Pagan Saxons. Ever hear of the Battle of Badon Hill?

I guess you haven't realised that there's no evidence to connect a king arthur to that anyway....
Quote:
Christianity had been well established in Roman Britian by the end of the 4th century. By Authur's time, either the late 5th or early 6th century, Christianity was firmly embedded in British culture.
Paganism was widespread until much later, and dominant until the 8th century.

:lol: where's you're.....say it with me now.......SOURCE:dance:

cause what your saying doesn't match what the SOURCES say........ :wink:

in other words provide a source saying that Authur was pagan.......or kiss my ring of shame.......

as to Saladin not haveing an influence on the West, well he was widely admired that Kaiser Willhelm the II restored it
"It was neglected for many years until the German Kaiser Wilhelm II funded its restoration."

http://www.istc.org/sisp/?fx=event&event_id=97674

Now why would he do that :think:

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote: That sounds pretty politically correct. The bible says to respect everyone. But it stresses unity through Christians, not Muslims. I don't have anything against Muslims or minorities but they are the reason Christianity is being ripped out of America. We certainly wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings by saying Merry Christmas or Under God. We are becoming so diverse that it's tearing us apart. If you are a Christian you would respect Muslims and let them stay within their own country. That shows honor and respect. We shouldn't be so tolerant and let a flood of immigrants come and rip away our Christian heritage. We should only allow Christians to come into America like how we always did until it was changed by liberals.

It is not solely the Muslim presence, it is the whole non-Christian presence-atheism, judaism, etc.

And what the hell is "Christian Heritage"?
Quote:

Islam is not a religion of peace. That doesn't mean we should hate every Muslim but we should acknowledge this fact and stop catering to them. Where ever there is a large group of Muslims within a country there are problems. Despite what liberal schools teach you history will show you that people with different religions dont get along.

Really. Interestingly enough, less than half the world's muslims are in the middle-east, yet the middle-east is really the only place where there is religion related violence. Explain please. Also, Islam is NOT any more nonpeaceful than Christianity. When I can pick out stories of entire cities being annihilated by God and of God killing a whole bunch of innocent children from the Bible, you can't tell me that Islam is somehow especially violent.

Christianity and Islam both have a violent history, and I know there is quite a bit of violence in the Bible (not sure about the Koran, could be there too-not sure). Saying that your religion is somehow more peaceful is bulls**t.[/quote]