Political Crossfire Forums

AshTray900 · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 78

Reason wrote: Quote: Prove it. They have been discredited or disproved every time someone tried to post evidence of that.

I will, but first I aks you, why are you so desperate to prove that Islam is perfect and completely tolerant. It is just a silly group of irrational ideas. You don't even subscribe to them, so you must think they're stupid too.

I can criticize communism without non-communists telling me that communism is perfect by why can't I criticize Islam without people doing the same to me?

Just because it's a culture people subscribe to, it does not mean it is above criticism, or automatically perfect.

"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).

"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).

"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).

"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).

Yes, other parts of the Qu'ran disagree with these points, but it doesn't mean that these bits aren't written. There are really two Qurans. The first (written by the prophet M when he had no army and was being attacked) it is peaceful. The second written at a later date when he had an army and was killing people - no prizes for guessing which one advocates the wholesale slaughter of unbelievers.

The fact that the Quran is self-contradicting, places it in league with communism, facsism, and Christiantity for stupidity of source material.

all religious texts are a mess of contradictions that have been compiled over many years by many different people, soma passages demonstrate very good moral, however some are just plain out evil as you have shown, this is true of almost all religion including the christian bible.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote:
all religious texts are a mess of contradictions that have been compiled over many years by many different people, soma passages demonstrate very good moral, however some are just plain out evil as you have shown, this is true of almost all religion including the christian bible.

I agree, I was criticising the post-modern reflex that determines that all cultures/religions/ideas that aren't our own are beyond criticism. I would say that the Christian Bible, or at least the New testament part, is considerably less violent than the Qu'ran. It's still a book of silly superstition, though.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16431 Location: On Earth

Not in Islam, not in Christianity, and not even in Judaism do you find that God is preaching unjust violence. The "violence" that the Koran preaches is against those who attack oppress Islam and its followers. I'm sure that if such verses existed in the Bible or the Torah, they would have meant the same thing for their respective religions...

BoRags wrote: THESE ARE THE HISTORICAL/CULTURAL FACTS:

Yeah, right. :roll:

BoRags wrote: 1.Mohammed himself was a blood-thirsty terrorist. He and his armies SLAUGHTERED tens of thousands of people. It is a historically undeniable fact.

Oh, is it now? It's a VERY DENIABLE OPINION. Muhammad (PBUH) was a very peaceful person, and he was no bloodthirsty conqueror. This blasphemy of yours is unbelievable. He had fought in wars of defense, not attack. And he united the Arab tribes with a message of peace: Islam.
http://www.muhammad.net/
He didn't slaughter that many people. In fact, he did not slaughter as much as King Richard The Lion-Hearted did during the Crusades.

BoRags wrote: 2. The Quran/Koran has many verses that admonish Muslims to violence and murder. They are there. Period. Explain them away any way you wish, but they are still there.

How ignorant. They only seem to admonish Muslims to violence and murder, whereas in fact there is another justification. Have you been reading the Bible and/or Deuteronomy lately? Pretty scary stuff in there. Care to explain them to me? I wouldn't want you to. Religious text ALWAYS has justification. You're no expert at the Koran at all:
http://www.al-quran.org.uk/

BoRags wrote: 3. Islam is a reilgion of violence and bloodshed. It always has been, and continues to be. Islam has NEVER spread without bloodshed.

Wow. Ignorance at its best. Have you been reading ISLAMIC history books instead of white trash and biblica.com? I don't think so. Islam has been spread by emissaries and messengers, not by warriors. The Islamic empire spread with nary a pool of blood. You, sir, you think you know everything... but you're a real riot. :rotf:
http://www.islam-guide.com/

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Not in Islam, not in Christianity, and not even in Judaism do you find that God is preaching unjust violence. The "violence" that the Koran preaches is against those who attack oppress Islam and its followers. I'm sure that if such verses existed in the Bible or the Torah, they would have meant the same thing for their respective religion

What do you mean 'not even in Judaism'? These are some passages from the Qu'ran:

"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).

"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).

"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).

"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).

Most Muslims don't follow this, but it's part of the ideology. In the same way that Marxists don't follow every word of Marx, Muslims don't follow every (alleged) word of Mohammed (pbuh).

pharaoh · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject:

Reason wrote: Quote: Not in Islam, not in Christianity, and not even in Judaism do you find that God is preaching unjust violence. The "violence" that the Koran preaches is against those who attack oppress Islam and its followers. I'm sure that if such verses existed in the Bible or the Torah, they would have meant the same thing for their respective religion

What do you mean 'not even in Judaism'? These are some passages from the Qu'ran:

"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).

"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).

"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).

"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).

Most Muslims don't follow this, but it's part of the ideology. In the same way that Marxists don't follow every word of Marx, Muslims don't follow every (alleged) word of Mohammed (pbuh).

No excuse me its not part of our ideology because its not even there!
You sir interpret the verses your own way, you take them out of context, and use them to justify your incorrect view on Islam.
All of the verses that you mentioned deal with a certain situation, they were revealed because the muslims were facing a certin situation, that is that they were under attack by the pagans and other enemies.
Islam orders us to defend ourselves not to attack others without justification.
Read the verses before each verse that you mentioned and you will find this by yourself. Also please check the context link.

http://www.al-quran.org.uk/

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Show me where my quotations are wrong rather than claiming that they are...

pharaoh · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject:

Reason wrote: Show me where my quotations are wrong rather than claiming that they are...

All what im asking is to read some verses before the verses that you posted and read the context if necessary yet you are too lazy to do so and you expect me to do that for you. :roll:
However, I will comply and comment on the first verse you posted as an example.

Quote: "Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).

47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom : Until the war lays down its burdens.Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of God,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Now I dont know why didnt you post the whole verse, maybe because you copy and past it from an anti Islamic web site. You see, they didnt want you to read the whole verse cause just by reading it you can come up with few remarks:

1- God favors the release of prisoners of wars without ransom.
Question: Can you find a verse like that in the bible, especially in the OT??

2- "Until the war lays down its burdens" Now if muslims are really commanded to seek war and fight all the unbelievers out there then this war would never really ends now doesnt it?

3-Releasing the prisoners of war would be infact a huge contradiction to fighting the unbelievers wherever they are! Cause if you let them go then you have to fight them again because, according to what you say, muslims are commanded to always fight and kill the unbelievers, so why letting them go?!

4- As you can see, releasing the prisoners is not conditioned to their conversion to Islam. Which clearly proves that there is no compulsion in our religion and there are many verses in the Koran that further clears out this fact.

Now to the commentary in the site:

This verse commands every believer to kill or be killed when he fights disbelievers. If slain the rewards from Allah are many. According to Baqarah: 154 and Ali Imran: 169 to 171 the martyrs are not dead, they are alive, getting sustenance from Allah, rejoicing in the grace and mercy of Allah; and Hajj: 58 and 59 say that they occupy the highest position near Allah. If the believer prevails over the enemies of Allah, he destroys the power base of evil, disorder and corruption.

Those who deserted the Holy Prophet in the battles of Uhad and Hunayn (see commentary of Bara-at: 25 to 27 and other references mentioned therein) and ran away to save their lives must be identified and condemned in view of this verse. ((this is the context of this verse, it deals with a certain situation where muslims were already at war with their enemies))

The ordinance to kill the disbelievers is applicable when they launch an attack on the believers, not when they have surrendered. Islam prescribes effective defence in the event of an unprovoked aggression. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah 190 to 193.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

When once the enemy is brought under control, the release of prisoners with or without ransom is recommended. The slaughter of captives was never allowed by Islam. How a believer deals with the captives is a test. Some take ransom, some let them go for the sake of Allah; and some take care of them, shelter them and feed them with no strings attached.

2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.
2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
2:192 But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

Now please do the same with the other verses and you will find (hopefully) that you have been lied upon by the sites that you receive your information from on Islam.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Now I dont know why didnt you post the whole verse, maybe because you copy and past it from an anti Islamic web site. You see, they didnt want you to read the whole verse cause just by reading it you can come up with few remarks:

I didn't have the full quote, but you added your own bit in to make it sound better (you did at least put it in brackets) without the brackets it would still have been pretty terrible.

Quote: Question: Can you find a verse like that in the bible, especially in the OT??

Of course you can.....but that doesn't mean Islam doesn't have it in it.

Quote: 2- "Until the war lays down its burdens" Now if muslims are really commanded to seek war and fight all the unbelievers out there then this war would never really ends now doesnt it?

and for fundementalists it doesn't. Normal people don't want that so they don't follow it. Look at what the imams/muttawa of Saudi Arabia say.....they're practically all insane...
Quote:
3-Releasing the prisoners of war would be infact a huge contradiction to fighting the unbelievers wherever they are! Cause if you let them go then you have to fight them again because, according to what you say, muslims are commanded to always fight and kill the unbelievers, so why letting them go?!

They can convert and live (what you call revert).
Quote:
4- As you can see, releasing the prisoners is not conditioned to their conversion to Islam. Which clearly proves that there is no compulsion in our religion and there are many verses in the Koran that further clears out this fact.

Subdued throuroughly is the same as submitted fully, which is embracing Islam.
Quote:
Now please do the same with the other verses and you will find (hopefully) that you have been lied upon by the sites that you receive your information from on Islam.

WHat sect are you? Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Salafi etc?

pharaoh · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject:

Quote: I didn't have the full quote

Yeah thats obvious, so from where did you get this half verse?

Quote: but you added your own bit in to make it sound better

Nope. I copied the verse word by word from the site that I have showed. You saying that clearly proves that you still lack any kind of will to search for the truth by yourself. You think you are so right that you dont have to search for nothing. Pretty lame, but thank god this is your own soul that you are gambling with, not mine.

Quote: without the brackets it would still have been pretty terrible.

:lol:
Pretty terrible?! To free the prisoners of war without ransom?! To fight until the war ends?! That god doesnt forget the deeds of those who defend themselves and their country and their religion?! Whatever...

Quote: Of course you can.....but that doesn't mean Islam doesn't have it in it.

Err...what are you saying?
Anyway, since you didnt post a verse or a passage in the bible that commands Christians or Jews to free the prisoners of war without ransom I still dare you to find such a passage!

Quote: and for fundementalists it doesn't. Normal people don't want that so they don't follow it. Look at what the imams/muttawa of Saudi Arabia say.....they're practically all insane...

lol...what you are saying clearly shows that you dont understand much about Islam and you dont have much information on the history of Islam. You see, if muslims were really commanded to fight the unbelievers wherever they are maybe all the world now would have been muslim! Now im wondering why all those millions of muslims all out in Christian and Buddhist countries didnt form a fifth column and just kill kill kill?! :roll:
I am not talking just about nowadays but since the dawn of Islam. Why didnt muslims just kill every unbeliever they see walking down the street or atleast force him to convert to Islam?! :roll:
Oh god your amazing...

Quote: They can convert and live (what you call revert).

How old are you? This is the second time I dont understand what you are trying to say.
Anyway if you believe that muslims are ordered to convert by force the unbelievers then please show me a verse from the koran that says so or a verse that says muslims should only free the prisoners of war if they convert. Now I am sure that would be such an easy thing to come up with from your reliable anti Islam sites right?

Quote: Subdued throuroughly is the same as submitted fully, which is embracing Islam.

First you analized why muslims dont go killing any unbeliever they see in the street and now you are interpreting our own verses! :lol:
What next?! Cant wait :-D

Quote: WHat sect are you? Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Salafi etc?

There are no sects in Islam. We are all muslims.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Yeah thats obvious, so from where did you get this half verse?

I don't remember, I originally posted it a while ago and reposted it from there...it certainly was not a racist type website, though.

Quote:
Nope. I copied the verse word by word from the site that I have showed. You saying that clearly proves that you still lack any kind of will to search for the truth by yourself. You think you are so right that you dont have to search for nothing. Pretty lame, but thank god this is your own soul that you are gambling with, not mine.

Threatening my soul is not going to get anything out of me but a giggle. You might have copied it out word for word but the bracketed bit is not part of the text...that's why it's in brackets.
Quote:
Anyway, since you didnt post a verse or a passage in the bible that commands Christians or Jews to free the prisoners of war without ransom I still dare you to find such a passage!

Honestly I don't care if that isn't a passage, I think there's much to criticise about those too....By the way the passage does not command the release of prisoners of war until they have been completely subdued - until they have submitted, synonomous with convert to Islam.

You see, if muslims were really commanded to fight the unbelievers wherever they are maybe all the world now would have been muslim!
Quote:
what you are saying clearly shows that you dont understand much about Islam and you dont have much information on the history of Islam. You see, if muslims were really commanded to fight the unbelievers wherever they are maybe all the world now would have been muslim!

Armies allied to Islam did conquer a fair amount of the world, but it isn't easy to do that - which is why they couldn't.

Quote: Now im wondering why all those millions of muslims all out in Christian and Buddhist countries didnt form a fifth column and just kill kill kill?!

Because most people don't want to kill, no matter what some book says.

Quote: Now I am sure that would be such an easy thing to come up with from your reliable anti Islam sites right?

I don't frequent anti-Islam websites.......I know plenty of Muslims, good muslims, and am friends with them. Don't try to paint me as prejudiced because you couldn't be further from the truth....I've been invited to travel to someone's house in Iran.

Quote: There are no sects in Islam. We are all muslims.

Don't be silly. I was asking what group/sect/part of Islam you were in. It was just a friendly inquiry, I don't need you to give me propoganda for an answer.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16431 Location: On Earth

Muslims are commanded to fight the disbelievers who oppress them as well those who don't. But of course, the latter case is more of a peaceful disussion matter than a violent all-out attack. But then again, if you look at it that way, I'm sure there are similar verses like this in the Chrisitan Bible or the Jewish Torah.... Verses that call for forceful conversions.

But let's face it: NO ONE IS FOLLOWING THEIR RELIGION 100%. All religions call for such stuff.

However, you made an error in your argument. Islam advocates tolerance more than forceful conversion. You might've seen a handful of verses that call for "forceful preaching". Yet handfuls more advocate tolerance in Islam:

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers." [60:8]

Oh and one more thing. I mentioned this many times before (as did Pharaoh above), but why don't you go over to this forum and read my post over there?
http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34513

Not just anyone can interpret the Koran's teachings. Only those who are properly educated in ALL aspects of Islam can tell you what they really mean. And if you want to tell me that sheiks can conflict in their interpretations, you can't, because they are all part of a consensus when it comes to Koranic teachings.

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:58 am Post subject:

Quote: I don't remember, I originally posted it a while ago and reposted it from there...it certainly was not a racist type website, though.

Yeah and I wonder why they posted only half of the verse. Seems they didnt like the rest of the verse so they just skiped it.

Quote: Threatening my soul is not going to get anything out of me but a giggle.

Yes yes im threatning your soul because im ordered to either convert you or kill you. :roll:

Quote: You might have copied it out word for word but the bracketed bit is not part of the text...that's why it's in brackets.

its in brackets to help you better understand the verse. Also because the translation from Arabic to English cannot be exactly the same so they need to add things to be more precise.

Quote: By the way the passage does not command the release of prisoners of war until they have been completely subdued - until they have submitted, synonomous with convert to Islam.

See? Here you are going at it again, understanding Islam your own way. So cute.

Quote: Armies allied to Islam did conquer a fair amount of the world, but it isn't easy to do that - which is why they couldn't.

Ah...another historical conclusion... zzzzzzzzz

Quote: Because most people don't want to kill, no matter what some book says.

:slp:

Quote: I don't frequent anti-Islam websites.......I know plenty of Muslims, good muslims, and am friends with them.

Great, then please do me a favor and ask them if their religion really commandes them to kill every unbeliever they see or try to convert him by force. Then please tell me what they have told you. Ah this can be interesting.

Quote: Don't try to paint me as prejudiced because you couldn't be further from the truth

Thats what you think and you are wrong.

Quote: Don't be silly. I was asking what group/sect/part of Islam you were in. It was just a friendly inquiry, I don't need you to give me propoganda for an answer.

Im silly because you are silly. You are explaining to me my own religion and the habites of muslims...wow...you go dude... :roll:

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: But let's face it: NO ONE IS FOLLOWING THEIR RELIGION 100%. All religions call for such stuff.

I agree and have never denied it.

Quote: "God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers." [60:8]

I don't need to be told this, OBL and his followers do.

Quote: Yeah and I wonder why they posted only half of the verse. Seems they didnt like the rest of the verse so they just skiped it.

Maybe they didn't think it was important or maybe they posted it from somewhere else.
Quote:
its in brackets to help you better understand the verse. Also because the translation from Arabic to English cannot be exactly the same so they need to add things to be more precise.

Come one, it completely changes the meaning of the verse.
Quote:
See? Here you are going at it again, understanding Islam your own way. So cute.

I'm interpreting in the manner that the most vocal 'Muslims' do, the ones who blow stuff up.

Quote:
Great, then please do me a favor and ask them if their religion really commandes them to kill every unbeliever they see or try to convert him by force. Then please tell me what they have told you. Ah this can be interesting.

Well they are my friends, of course they won't say that...nor would they be my friends if they followed that part of the Qu'ran.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16431 Location: On Earth

Maybe they didn't think it was important or maybe they posted it from somewhere else.

Well, what they did WAS wrong. Verses of the Koran are, as I said before, linked. You can't explain the meaning of such verses without referring to another one.

Here's a good example:

In the chapter of the Koran called "Al Ma'un", the fourth verse states:

"Woe be to those who pray."

Whoa! Hang on. If someone took this verse alone, you might assume that Islam is condemning religious practices. But go on to the fifth verse:

"Those who are to their prayers NEGLECTFUL."

Islam calls for Salah, or prayer. It is a MUST for all Muslims to pray. And you see many "Muslims" who either don't pray or pray wrongly and divert from normal prayer procedure (that is, they pray hastily or carelessly).

So, those guys who posted "half the verses" as pharaoh said should go back and introduce the verses that are linked to them, whether they like it or not, because THAT is how you properly interpret the Koran. If they choose to stick to those "half-verses" or incomplete verses, I suggest they don't for the sake of themselves and for Islam.

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject:

Quote: Maybe they didn't think it was important or maybe they posted it from somewhere else.

They didnt think its important to post 1 whole verse?! What will it cost them to post 1 complete verse from the Quran, Web space?!

Quote: Come one, it completely changes the meaning of the verse.

It doesnt change a thing and if they really wanted to change the meaning of the verse, to hide its "true meaning" as you think, then they wouldnt have even put the god damn brackets in the first place! :roll:
Think....use your mind....use it....please do...

Quote: I'm interpreting in the manner that the most vocal 'Muslims' do, the ones who blow stuff up.

Ah so your basing your view on Islam on the things the terrorists and extremists say and do. Who represent only 00000.00001% of muslims around the world? Wow thats so smart on your part. :roll:

Quote: Well they are my friends, of course they won't say that...nor would they be my friends if they followed that part of the Qu'ran.

:lm:
Im done wasting my time with you. People like you shouldnt be considered seriously...they should be ignored. (no offense)

AshTray900 · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 78

pharaoh wrote: Quote: Maybe they didn't think it was important or maybe they posted it from somewhere else.

They didnt think its important to post 1 whole verse?! What will it cost them to post 1 complete verse from the Quran, Web space?!

Quote: Come one, it completely changes the meaning of the verse.

It doesnt change a thing and if they really wanted to change the meaning of the verse, to hide its "true meaning" as you think, then they wouldnt have even put the god damn brackets in the first place! :roll:
Think....use your mind....use it....please do...

Quote: I'm interpreting in the manner that the most vocal 'Muslims' do, the ones who blow stuff up.

Ah so your basing your view on Islam on the things the terrorists and extremists say and do. Who represent only 00000.00001% of muslims around the world? Wow thats so smart on your part. :roll:

Quote: Well they are my friends, of course they won't say that...nor would they be my friends if they followed that part of the Qu'ran.

:lm:
Im done wasting my time with you. People like you shouldnt be considered seriously...they should be ignored. (no offense)

Nothing is above criticism not even ones own religion, i think that you are taking it as a personal attack, when criticising Islam, no one is pointing the finger at all interpretaions of Islam and all followers of Islam, just the text in the Quran really. I can take the OT and make just as many references to something that seems evil as well.

How does one look over these texts and filter the bad and follow the good and yet claim that their religion is 100% the "truth"? It seems to me that all religious texts have good and bad things in them, and as someone stated before that the bad parts were there during times of religious persecution. this is true and exactly why they are there! this however does not make them good morals to live by and just shows me that the religious writings were more of a common idea at the time and had nothing to do with the words of a higher power sent down through a prophet.

if muslims would like for people to stop criticising their "book", they should rewrite it and use modern morals and the brain power of todays society rather than somebodies interpretation of the world who lived back in the times when much more evil was going on in the world. i would say this for the Christian Bible also. basically whether or not you believe in the higher power, the books serve as a moral guide so why let bad morals still be printed in them. If the higher power exists, and a man interpreted his meaning then it should seem logical that more men could revise this interpretation or rewrite it all together, to beleive that one or a few men in all of history had a special connection with the higher power and nobody else did, can, or will doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

I am not against a society having a "book" that serves as a moral guide. but if that society has one, shouldnt it represent the morals of that whole society only and not have any bad morals that are in the minority. if the Quran has anything in it that reflect the ideals of that 0.00001 % of fundamentalists, there is nothing wrong with criticising it based on those parts.

In no way does this apply to peace loving muslims, christians, jews, pagans, atheists etc. but just the bad morals and they are written in there. and that is where the fundamentalist get the justification for acting like they do, it may not be the main reason they do it or it may be, but one thing is for sure that they use it to justify their actions to others and to recruit more fundamentalists.

pharaoh · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject:

Quote: Nothing is above criticism not even ones own religion, i think that you are taking it as a personal attack

Oh no, I didnt take it as a personal attack. I was simply annoyed by his stubbornness and arrogance. He is interpreting my own religion, his own way! Isnt that weird?! Its okay to criticize, you can criticize my religion and I can try to clear any misunderstanding and its up to you to be convinced or not. What is silly, is that when I give you my answer or my explanation, you say " your religion doesnt say so, I actually says so..." based on your understanding not even some weird or extremist imam (priest).

Quote: I can take the OT and make just as many references to something that seems evil as well.

Now I dont want to appear arrogant but the thing is about the Quran is that its all linked together. So if you take just 1 verse from the Quran that may say "kill all the unbelievers", you cant base the view of Islam on this single verse that is taken out of context cause maybe the verse before it or after it a verse says "those who have attacked you", or you can take it out of context, some verses were revealed when the muslims were already at war. That is why it is so important to be aware of these things.
On the other hand, there is no such thing in the OT, it really contains some weird and bloody verses that has nothing to do with context. That is the difference.

Quote: It seems to me that all religious texts have good and bad things in them

That is YOUR opinion. If you believe in god then you must know that god wont make you get lost or give you some "evil" rules to follow.

Quote: if muslims would like for people to stop criticizing their "book", they should rewrite it and use modern morals and the brain power of todays society rather than somebodies interpretation of the world who lived back in the times when much more evil was going on in the world. i would say this for the Christian Bible also. basically whether or not you believe in the higher power, the books serve as a moral guide so why let bad morals still be printed in them. If the higher power exists, and a man interpreted his meaning then it should seem logical that more men could revise this interpretation or rewrite it all together, to beleive that one or a few men in all of history had a special connection with the higher power and nobody else did, can, or will doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

Now that is silly. You can criticize my book as much as you want and I dont have the right to tell you to stop. You think that the Koran is not divine and so it can be rewritten and I and all muslims think that it is divine and so it can not be rewritten, especially that as god said, the koran is for all times until the very end.

AshTray900 · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 78

pharaoh wrote: Quote: Nothing is above criticism not even ones own religion, i think that you are taking it as a personal attack

Oh no, I didnt take it as a personal attack. I was simply annoyed by his stubbornness and arrogance. He is interpreting my own religion, his own way! Isnt that weird?! Its okay to criticize, you can criticize my religion and I can try to clear any misunderstanding and its up to you to be convinced or not. What is silly, is that when I give you my answer or my explanation, you say " your religion doesnt say so, I actually says so..." based on your understanding not even some weird or extremist imam (priest).

Quote: I can take the OT and make just as many references to something that seems evil as well.

Now I dont want to appear arrogant but the thing is about the Quran is that its all linked together. So if you take just 1 verse from the Quran that may say "kill all the unbelievers", you cant base the view of Islam on this single verse that is taken out of context cause maybe the verse before it or after it a verse says "those who have attacked you", or you can take it out of context, some verses were revealed when the muslims were already at war. That is why it is so important to be aware of these things.
On the other hand, there is no such thing in the OT, it really contains some weird and bloody verses that has nothing to do with context. That is the difference.

Quote: It seems to me that all religious texts have good and bad things in them

That is YOUR opinion. If you believe in god then you must know that god wont make you get lost or give you some "evil" rules to follow.

Quote: if muslims would like for people to stop criticizing their "book", they should rewrite it and use modern morals and the brain power of todays society rather than somebodies interpretation of the world who lived back in the times when much more evil was going on in the world. i would say this for the Christian Bible also. basically whether or not you believe in the higher power, the books serve as a moral guide so why let bad morals still be printed in them. If the higher power exists, and a man interpreted his meaning then it should seem logical that more men could revise this interpretation or rewrite it all together, to beleive that one or a few men in all of history had a special connection with the higher power and nobody else did, can, or will doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

Now that is silly. You can criticize my book as much as you want and I dont have the right to tell you to stop. You think that the Koran is not divine and so it can be rewritten and I and all muslims think that it is divine and so it can not be rewritten, especially that as god said, the koran is for all times until the very end.

not true, what is silly is that someone beleives a book full of contradictions and some bad guidance would be the only tool for sending a message from a supposed "ultimate creator" to some primitave group of people, when you read the quran you use a faith filter and thats why it seems all good to you, you are just assuming that those passages ment well, and they are not all justified by the answer "you are taking them out of context". if you wish to proove this to anybody you need to copy and paste the group of passages together here without somebody elses interpretation in brackets. and no i dont believe in god, i am an atheist and i read everything with an open perspective, im not trying to enlighten someone or to proove there is no god. i read things and take them for their literal meaning.

pharaoh · Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:35 am Post subject:

AshTray900 wrote: pharaoh wrote: Quote: Nothing is above criticism not even ones own religion, i think that you are taking it as a personal attack

Oh no, I didnt take it as a personal attack. I was simply annoyed by his stubbornness and arrogance. He is interpreting my own religion, his own way! Isnt that weird?! Its okay to criticize, you can criticize my religion and I can try to clear any misunderstanding and its up to you to be convinced or not. What is silly, is that when I give you my answer or my explanation, you say " your religion doesnt say so, I actually says so..." based on your understanding not even some weird or extremist imam (priest).

Quote: I can take the OT and make just as many references to something that seems evil as well.

Now I dont want to appear arrogant but the thing is about the Quran is that its all linked together. So if you take just 1 verse from the Quran that may say "kill all the unbelievers", you cant base the view of Islam on this single verse that is taken out of context cause maybe the verse before it or after it a verse says "those who have attacked you", or you can take it out of context, some verses were revealed when the muslims were already at war. That is why it is so important to be aware of these things.
On the other hand, there is no such thing in the OT, it really contains some weird and bloody verses that has nothing to do with context. That is the difference.

Quote: It seems to me that all religious texts have good and bad things in them

That is YOUR opinion. If you believe in god then you must know that god wont make you get lost or give you some "evil" rules to follow.

Quote: if muslims would like for people to stop criticizing their "book", they should rewrite it and use modern morals and the brain power of todays society rather than somebodies interpretation of the world who lived back in the times when much more evil was going on in the world. i would say this for the Christian Bible also. basically whether or not you believe in the higher power, the books serve as a moral guide so why let bad morals still be printed in them. If the higher power exists, and a man interpreted his meaning then it should seem logical that more men could revise this interpretation or rewrite it all together, to beleive that one or a few men in all of history had a special connection with the higher power and nobody else did, can, or will doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

Now that is silly. You can criticize my book as much as you want and I dont have the right to tell you to stop. You think that the Koran is not divine and so it can be rewritten and I and all muslims think that it is divine and so it can not be rewritten, especially that as god said, the koran is for all times until the very end.

not true, what is silly is that someone beleives a book full of contradictions and some bad guidance would be the only tool for sending a message from a supposed "ultimate creator" to some primitave group of people, when you read the quran you use a faith filter and thats why it seems all good to you, you are just assuming that those passages ment well, and they are not all justified by the answer "you are taking them out of context". if you wish to proove this to anybody you need to copy and paste the group of passages together here without somebody elses interpretation in brackets. and no i dont believe in god, i am an atheist and i read everything with an open perspective, im not trying to enlighten someone or to proove there is no god. i read things and take them for their literal meaning.

Again the existance of any contradiction and bad guidance is in your own opinion. You are entitled to your own opinion but to me you are very wrong. You may think that all religions were invented by men and I believe that Judaism and Christianity and Islam came from God. And yes I can justify anything you may consider "bad" in the Koran. Excuse me but you are not the only smart person on this planet, as you may think that there is no god and all religions are just one big fat lie, there are other smart people who truely believe that God do exist and that this world couldnt possibly have been created out of nothing. These people read God's words and know that these words cannot be written by a human being. You may think that you are the all knowing but maybe...just maybe your wrong....put that in your mind.

eynon · Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:20 am Post subject:

Quote: Anyway, since you didnt post a verse or a passage in the bible that commands Christians or Jews to free the prisoners of war without ransom I still dare you to find such a passage!

New Testement doesn't really cover the whole war thing...many believe that early Christians were pacifists, and that was a major reason the militaristic Romans found Christian's seditious.

Course those days are long gone. The closest thing we have on a spiritual authority would be St. Augustine's concept of just war http://www.monksofadoration.org/justwar.html, it was written about 400 ad and basically says that Christians should wage war in order to re-establish peace and order.

That said there even before that time there was an underlying belief among Christians that war should be tempered with mercy. The German tribes who converted to Christianity and invaded the Roman empire often showed considerable restraint due to their new found faith.

A restraint later shown my the Arab Armies who conquered the Middle-east and North Africa 2 centuries later.

Much of the modern Western concept of restraint in war can actually be traced back to a hugley influencial and great Muslim, Saladin. The Compassion, Mercy, Honor and Fair-play Saladin showed in his wars against the crusaders inspired many of the ideals behind chivalry. The literary King Authur himself was in many way a character spun out of crusader stories about Saladin.

It was these chivalric customs that later inspired the strict codes of late 17th, 18th, and 19th century war-fare. Which in turn became the base of our modern concepts of a Just well fought war.

so in a way you can kinda say the concepts and rules that try to restrain modern-war actually stem from Islam...or a Muslim anyways :wink: