Political Crossfire Forums

[JS]

Moath wrote: Also, I have to ask this. Is burning an American flag and carrying signs that say "Down with America" among other things part of a traditional wedding/engagement party?

You seriously think that the media is telling you the truth? :lol:
They may have shown this on a Pakistani street or something.
And even if, you're talking about a few individuals, compared to millions of others who wouldn't do such a thing.

However, of all the claims you made, the Wolfowitz thing was the silliest. So please tell me where I can read this 'fact' that he condoned the killing of 800,000 people, I am literally 'dieing' to read it.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article10622.html?var_recherche=card+deck+?var_recherche=card%20deck

Email the guys there to give you the full facts about his condoning. I lost my email from them.\

Have you been to Palestine? Have you seen the oppression? It's off-topic, I know.

That's it? That's your source? A card with a blurb claiming that Wolfowitz condoned the killing of 800,000 people? What was the context of the condoning? When did he say it and where, and who heard him? Is this claim from some interpretation of his actions without his actually saying anything specific? Whos is the person/journalist this claim is attributed to? There's no claim to a source! Good lord Moath, is this the media that you believe? You are taking me to task for the media I watch, and this is your counter? The emporer has no clothes...

JS

[Saracen]

I'll reply to your post shortly.

[Alghazali]

Lets get facts straight NOT everyone who jusifies his political agenda in the name of Islam means that he truely beileves in Islam. Just like people talking in the name of Christianity take Adolf Hitler for example in a Speech in Munich (12 April 1922)

Quote: My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

I hope he was not representing all Christians with what he was saying at his time. Just like Bin Laden when he speaks in the name of Islam it doesnt mean that Islam is the problem.

No religion is BAD in a sense it seeks destruction of earth. Human societies without religion would still have ethics and morals (like Don't Steal, Don't Lie, Don't Kill), and religion came by to emphasise on those morals and ethics

However, Islam is not just a "religion" in the traditional sense, because it is not just confined to acts of worship, morality and other aspects of personal piety. The teachings of Islam, even though they do cover religious rituals and morality, also encompass all other aspects of life. The Prophet Muhammad's mission encompassed not only spiritual and religious teachings, but also included guidance for such things as social reform, economics, politics, warfare and family life. Thus due to the diversity and success of Muhammad's mission, Muslims have clear guidance from God and His Final Prophet on all aspects of life. This goes hand-in-hand with the Islamic belief that Almighty God does not leave human beings without guidance in their daily lives -- thus His guidance is all-encompassing. Due to God's wisdom, and because Islam is the final revealed religion, the guidance that God has sent is applicable for all times and for all places. This can be seen in the fact that the guidance for some aspects of life is much more broad and flexible than others. Additionally, in the Qur'an, Almighty God has revealed to mankind that the purpose of our creation is to worship and remember God in all aspects of our life, and to follow His guidance in everything that we do. Thus Islam does not accept a secular view of government and society, but only one based on the Law of God. Nor does Islam leave it to human beings to decide what is right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral based on their whims, desires or man-made idea. In short, Islam does not teach people to "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" because, according to Islam, everything belongs to God. Like all of its other teachings, Islam's view of other religions is balanced, realistic and moderate. Islam doesn't view other religions as being either completely true nor completely false, but believes that all true religions were at one time divinely revealed. However, over time the teachings of the various religions, due to a variety of reasons, have become distorted and mixed with made-man ideas. But nonetheless, Muslims are required to be tolerant of other revealed religions since the Qur'an clearly says: "Let there be no compulsion in religion".

The teachings of Islam, since they are divinely revealed, are balanced in all of their aspects. Even though Islam is an all-encompassing way of life, it preaches moderation and rejects extremism. On the one hand, Islam does not preach complete rejection of all worldly pleasures in view of the life hereafter; and on the other hand it does not teach that earthly life is just for pleasure and enjoyment. In Islam, wealth and worldly pleasures can be partaken of in this life as long as they are enjoyed in a way that is in obedience to God. However, Muslims are taught to keep in mind that the life hereafter is their ultimate goal, and therefore one should be charitable and not become too attached to worldly things. By maintaining a balance between man's spiritual and physical needs, the teachings of Islam are best suited for the needs of human beings in particular and society in general. Since Islam is based on clear guidance from God, it rejects all man-made religious excesses, such as certain forms of monasticism where people try to completely "reject the world" and other forms of extreme self-denial. Islam teaches that human beings have responsibilities at all levels -- to other individuals, to their families and to society as a whole. By maintaining a unique balance between the physical and spiritual, and between the individual and society, Islam maintains a balance in all directions.

[Haretto]

Why I hate Islam.. well, because they are in a way "taking over Europe".

By 2050, 25 million Germans will be gone, 26 million French, 28 million Russians and like 6 million of everything else.

Replaced with immigrants mainly of ME and North African decent, making 96%+ Islamic. I can really see in 60 years France being an Islamic Republic of France. What will happen when the real French are gone, and muslims are 75%+ of the country.. will it turn into an Islamic run country just like every single country in the world where Islam is the dominant religion? It seems to run their way of life.. they sure don't stop Islam run people from being elected into government.. and I am sure many wont fight their religion from running the country.. But then I remember how stupid Europe is becoming when you will probably vote for the muslim guy because you hate them less then they can hate you. I guess thats what Europe gets for its history of taking over other groups.. maybe Europe just feels that for what they have done, get on your knees for every thing that walks into your countries.. legal or illegal, preaching hate or not, and attacking your population on trains or in riots.

Your euro culture that you have had for hundreds of years, will be replaces with ME and African culture in 70 years. But many don't care.. people are people, humanity must love every one. But why can many country's such as Japan keep only Japanese in Japan with out being called xenophobic, but any Euro country tryst they are just called out by the media and the world as anti-immigrant Nazi.

Also, I am Japanese in decent. So you cant call me a white supremecist for telling you how I see Europe's culture going byebye because of the need for immigration.. have more kids, be proud.. dont let your birthrates die like this and lose what you have had for the longest of time.

[Saracen]

Actually, what the actions of the leaders of these countries are doing are NOT based on Islam at all. I can tell you this cause I'm a Muslim...

And I know that many people hate Islam for political reasons. What you don't know about, you fear, then hate.

People hate Islam because of its spreading, because it is the fastest growing religion in the world today. I don't think a BAD ideology would be fast growing these days, would you?

And what the terrorists do every now and then is not Islam. Nor is it based on it. Even if it's what those terrorists say, they are a disgrace to their own religion nonetheless. Islam is no different than Christianity and Judaism in matters of peace and war in self-defense, not attack and aggression.

I respect your opinion, but you've gotta do a bit more research on Islam. Not from anti-Islamic sources like many ignorant people do, but from Islamic sources like many smart people do. And I don't mean radical sources. I mean sources like this one:

http://www.islam-guide.com/

[Demonic Spoon]

Haretto wrote: Why I hate Islam.. well, because they are in a way "taking over Europe".

By 2050, 25 million Germans will be gone, 26 million French, 28 million Russians and like 6 million of everything else.

Replaced with immigrants mainly of ME and North African decent, making 96%+ Islamic. I can really see in 60 years France being an Islamic Republic of France. What will happen when the real French are gone, and muslims are 75%+ of the country.. will it turn into an Islamic run country just like every single country in the world where Islam is the dominant religion? It seems to run their way of life.. they sure don't stop Islam run people from being elected into government.. and I am sure many wont fight their religion from running the country.. But then I remember how stupid Europe is becoming when you will probably vote for the muslim guy because you hate them less then they can hate you. I guess thats what Europe gets for its history of taking over other groups.. maybe Europe just feels that for what they have done, get on your knees for every thing that walks into your countries.. legal or illegal, preaching hate or not, and attacking your population on trains or in riots.

Your euro culture that you have had for hundreds of years, will be replaces with ME and African culture in 70 years. But many don't care.. people are people, humanity must love every one. But why can many country's such as Japan keep only Japanese in Japan with out being called xenophobic, but any Euro country tryst they are just called out by the media and the world as anti-immigrant Nazi.

Also, I am Japanese in decent. So you cant call me a white supremecist for telling you how I see Europe's culture going byebye because of the need for immigration.. have more kids, be proud.. dont let your birthrates die like this and lose what you have had for the longest of time.

What does someone's religion have to do with their view on government? If it had ANYTHING to do with it, then the US would never have been a secular nation, since most of the original colonists were Christian.

[Saracen]

Quote: What does someone's religion have to do with their view on government? If it had ANYTHING to do with it, then the US would never have been a secular nation, since most of the original colonists were Christian.

Exactly. :tu:

No one can tie beliefs to politics... only demographics, which makes things a bit murkier anyways.

[eynon]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Haretto wrote: Why I hate Islam.. well, because they are in a way "taking over Europe".

By 2050, 25 million Germans will be gone, 26 million French, 28 million Russians and like 6 million of everything else.

Replaced with immigrants mainly of ME and North African decent, making 96%+ Islamic. I can really see in 60 years France being an Islamic Republic of France. What will happen when the real French are gone, and muslims are 75%+ of the country.. will it turn into an Islamic run country just like every single country in the world where Islam is the dominant religion? It seems to run their way of life.. they sure don't stop Islam run people from being elected into government.. and I am sure many wont fight their religion from running the country.. But then I remember how stupid Europe is becoming when you will probably vote for the muslim guy because you hate them less then they can hate you. I guess thats what Europe gets for its history of taking over other groups.. maybe Europe just feels that for what they have done, get on your knees for every thing that walks into your countries.. legal or illegal, preaching hate or not, and attacking your population on trains or in riots.

Your euro culture that you have had for hundreds of years, will be replaces with ME and African culture in 70 years. But many don't care.. people are people, humanity must love every one. But why can many country's such as Japan keep only Japanese in Japan with out being called xenophobic, but any Euro country tryst they are just called out by the media and the world as anti-immigrant Nazi.

Also, I am Japanese in decent. So you cant call me a white supremecist for telling you how I see Europe's culture going byebye because of the need for immigration.. have more kids, be proud.. dont let your birthrates die like this and lose what you have had for the longest of time.

What does someone's religion have to do with their view on government? If it had ANYTHING to do with it, then the US would never have been a secular nation, since most of the original colonists were Christian.

Actually it was the faith of the colonists that created our secular goverment. Most came from protestant sects that had suffered at the hands of goverments back in Europe, not to mention many were Calvanists, so their religion developed some strong Libertarian tendancies. The general religious belief among many colonial americans was that goverment was a horrid, nasty, corrupt and "of this world" and should therefore me kept as far away from religion as possible.


see the inherant seperation wasn't to protect goverment, it was to protect people's individual faiths from the corruption of goverment........... :-D

[Trajan]

Why hate Islam?

Because close minded willfullly ignorant know it alls fail to realise that any religon can and has been perverted by those who profess to follow the faith for their own nefarious ends.

For centuries, religon has been used as an excuse to rape/pillage/conquer in the name of whatever God they profess to believe in.

Some terrorist cries to Allah before he blows himself up, and out comes the Islamofascist label. Another one cries Allulah Ackbar as he tosses a grenade, and again, the label pops out.

And many buy into it. UBL says he follows Islam, and instantly Islam is called a religon of violence. Well kiddies, in that light, so is Christianity.
How many Moors were slaughtered in Spain? How many pograms have Jews suffered from Christians?

How many of the New World died at the hands of the Most Christian Spanish? How many in Constantinople at the hands of the Crusade that was suppossed to help them?

How about Northern Ireland? Protestents and Catholics bombing each other. I don't recall any of them being labled Christofascists.

And don't get me started on the Catholic Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, etc.

I'll say it again and again and again. It is not the religon. It is, and I don't care what faith it is, the ones who pervert it for their own ends that are the problem.

And don't bother with quotes from the Koran trying to prove it is a religon of violence. You'll find the same things in the Bible.

[Saracen]

Quote: Actually it was the faith of the colonists that created our secular goverment. Most came from protestant sects that had suffered at the hands of goverments back in Europe, not to mention many were Calvanists, so their religion developed some strong Libertarian tendancies. The general religious belief among many colonial americans was that goverment was a horrid, nasty, corrupt and "of this world" and should therefore me kept as far away from religion as possible.

:think: Quite an interesting point, although I do remember what the pledge to the Flag says: "One Nation under God", and what the Oath to Presidency ends with at one point: "So help me God".

Quote: see the inherant seperation wasn't to protect goverment, it was to protect people's individual faiths from the corruption of goverment........... :-D

Wow. Seriously, I never thought about it. Geo-politics and religion are such a nasty mix these days, especially with the unjust use of religion in politics... clearly, those two things are immiscible as oil and water.

Quote: Because close minded willfullly ignorant know it alls fail to realise that any religon can and has been perverted by those who profess to follow the faith for their own nefarious ends.

Exactly. Two more points to consider:
1. That a lie told frequently enough often becomes the generally accepted truth... Yeah, right. A lie is a lie and will stay a lie.
2. Reasonable people twist their views to face the facts. Ignorant people twict the facts to face their views.

Quote: For centuries, religon has been used as an excuse to rape/pillage/conquer in the name of whatever God they profess to believe in.

The key word here is whatever God THEY PROFESS to believe in.

Quote: Some terrorist cries to Allah before he blows himself up, and out comes the Islamofascist label. Another one cries Allulah Ackbar as he tosses a grenade, and again, the label pops out.

A criminal is a criminal, regardless of what he believes in or says to believe in.

Quote: And many buy into it. UBL says he follows Islam, and instantly Islam is called a religon of violence. Well kiddies, in that light, so is Christianity.
How many Moors were slaughtered in Spain? How many pograms have Jews suffered from Christians?

And those weren't done in defense either. They were done in MALICIOUS ATTACK. Don't forget the Crusades. Honestly... Muslims, Jews AND CHRISTIANS slaughtered by CHRISTIANS?

Quote: How many of the New World died at the hands of the Most Christian Spanish? How many in Constantinople at the hands of the Crusade that was suppossed to help them?

And South American tribes almost died out. Perfect argument. :tu:

Quote: How about Northern Ireland? Protestents and Catholics bombing each other. I don't recall any of them being labled Christofascists.

Yikes. Neither did I.

Quote: And don't get me started on the Catholic Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, etc.

I don't think anyone would, regarding on how much truth you have just put in to your argument. :tu:

Quote: I'll say it again and again and again. It is not the religon. It is, and I don't care what faith it is, the ones who pervert it for their own ends that are the problem.

Denying this is ignorance. I've stressed it many times before.

Quote: And don't bother with quotes from the Koran trying to prove it is a religon of violence. You'll find the same things in the Bible.

Especially when those quotes are perverted by those who criticise those faiths unjustly and poisonously. :tu:

[Patience]

We call those who perpetrate these terrorist attacks in which innocent people die falsely the "OUTSIDERS" because they are out of the real teachings of islam.

Sunni means following the teachings of Muhammad, what these outsiders do is defenitely not in prophet Muhammad's teachings (peace be upon him).

They are driven mostly by anger and by their passion to go to heaven, but they are taking the wrong bus! Committing suicide in islam is not allowed! To fight till death even if you dont have enough equipment is ok, but not to kill urself intentionaly!

[Saracen]

Patience wrote: We call those who perpetrate these terrorist attacks in which innocent people die falsely the "OUTSIDERS" because they are out of the real teachings of islam.

Sunni means following the teachings of Muhammad, what these outsiders do is defenitely not in prophet Muhammad's teachings (peace be upon him).

They are driven mostly by anger and by their passion to go to heaven, but they are taking the wrong bus! Committing suicide in islam is not allowed! To fight till death even if you dont have enough equipment is ok, but not to kill urself intentionaly!

Where have you been all my life? :lol:

[Patience]

On earth :woo:

[Saracen]

Good post, Patience. :tu:

Salaam.

[cool_chick]

I think it's time for someone to take a trip to Egypt....

:-D

[pharaoh]

cool_chick wrote: I think it's time for someone to take a trip to Egypt....

:-D

C'mon...dont embarrass him :)

[cool_chick]

Moath wrote: Quote: Actually it was the faith of the colonists that created our secular goverment. Most came from protestant sects that had suffered at the hands of goverments back in Europe, not to mention many were Calvanists, so their religion developed some strong Libertarian tendancies. The general religious belief among many colonial americans was that goverment was a horrid, nasty, corrupt and "of this world" and should therefore me kept as far away from religion as possible.

:think: Quite an interesting point, although I do remember what the pledge to the Flag says: "One Nation under God", and what the Oath to Presidency ends with at one point: "So help me God".


FYI, One Nation "Under God"....the quoted part was added in the 1950s. We went through a hysteria period then, much similar to the hysteria of recent years...

Not sure about the Oath of Presidency, but that would be interesting to find if it was added during a hysteria period (perhaps during the witch burnings?)

[cool_chick]

pharaoh wrote: cool_chick wrote: I think it's time for someone to take a trip to Egypt....

:-D

C'mon...dont embarrass him :)


LOL

Ok I quit. That would be awesome though....

[Saracen]

cool_chick wrote: Moath wrote: Quote: Actually it was the faith of the colonists that created our secular goverment. Most came from protestant sects that had suffered at the hands of goverments back in Europe, not to mention many were Calvanists, so their religion developed some strong Libertarian tendancies. The general religious belief among many colonial americans was that goverment was a horrid, nasty, corrupt and "of this world" and should therefore me kept as far away from religion as possible.

:think: Quite an interesting point, although I do remember what the pledge to the Flag says: "One Nation under God", and what the Oath to Presidency ends with at one point: "So help me God".


FYI, One Nation "Under God"....the quoted part was added in the 1950s. We went through a hysteria period then, much similar to the hysteria of recent years...

Not sure about the Oath of Presidency, but that would be interesting to find if it was added during a hysteria period (perhaps during the witch burnings?)

Got that. It's just that I'm festering from anger about the extremity of some people. :wink:

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: cool_chick wrote: I think it's time for someone to take a trip to Egypt....

:-D

C'mon...dont embarrass him :)

I was kidding about that "Where have you been..."... It's sort of like "thanks a lot for the help". That's what I meant. :wink:
I didn't take it in that sense.