Political Crossfire Forums

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:24 am Post subject:

AshTray,

Quote: if i am not mistaken Islam accepts the old and new testament as part of history

Well yeah. You wanna try to prove to me that Moses and Jesus didnt exist?

Quote: they have found many, just because one is missing doesnt make the theory completely invalid

And it doens make it completely valid either. Where is the link between the monkey and the man? They didnt find it yet, and until they find it (which they wont) consider the evolution theory as just a theory and not a fact.

Quote: these things can be easily explained, coincidence, that is the answer, you dream of a date that something will happen, well tell me on how many days does something unique not happen???

Coincidence?! I woke up knowing that on that date something will happen. It couldnt be a coincidence and im sure there are alot of people who had these dreams that were far more detailed and precise than mine and did happen. These cannot be coincidence.

Quote: scientist cannot create life because life as we know it now, only comes from life, scientist have created the protocells, and cloning is a perfect example of how scientist can facilitate the creation of life

Dont blind yourself, scientists cannot create life out of nothing, they cannot create an animal or a plant cell.
"A few facts give insight into the conditions in which life may have emerged, but the mechanisms by which non-life became life are still elusive."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocell

Quote: in the prescence of lightning, and they remade them in a lab with high voltage

And how did the lightning existe?

Quote: in your favor, the only thing i really dont have a solid theory on is what makes us differently experience things, for example if i take my brain and make and exact copy of it at this point in my life and put it in a clone of me there would be two thinking entities exactly alike but with no connection, the only thing i can figure is that our internal experience is not only a product of the data but also the matter that the data is stored on. you would call this a soul, i personally think this is a logic trap that we have a hard time understanding and our internal awarness is just a product of the energy in our brains, the neuronal pathways, and the matter in which makes up the media, so if one day we can "copy" brains, we still must die and the only thing that surpasses us is our knowledge be used by another internally thinking entity.

the only question really is why are we internally experienceing the data that passes through our processor instead of just reacting without this little window of sight and sound and thought that we are aware of like we assume our computers process data with no experience. this is the only thing that seems to make life unique, without it i would say we have allready created life when we designed the computer. i think this is a logic trap though and a question of self awareness that we don't understand. for example what would it take for the computer to realize that it is there sitting on my desk lol;)

when we as a race figure this out is when "real" artificial intelligence is created. its not that the pc is laking in power, space, or memory its that internal experience that the computer is lacking from becoming self aware

Lets say you have a PC, it contains everything, mother board, processor, TV screen, keyboard,etc... and its all connected together. But what is interesting is that it doesnt work automatically when you connect it together, neither when you connected to a power cable. It only starts when you push the power button. What im trying to say is that push of a button can be considered as its soul. Same thing with us, a baby in his mother belly remains just a piece of meat and flesh then suddenly after 3 months of pregnancy or so the baby suddenly becomes alive. My question is why? and how? I mean what sends a message to the brain telling it to start working? It cant start working by itself you see. That even shows more expressly when a man dies from, lets say a heart attack. Although, all his body and brain remain intacte, you cannot bring him back to life just by replacing the "damaged" body part, which is the brain. WHY? Can you answer this question?

Quote: you are right, from the holy books??

You may have great doubts about the bible but I just advice you to read the koran from cover to cover then Im sure you will have atleast a different opinion.

Quote: i can go outside and view the reults of gravity but i dont assume that somebody lives in the center of the planet with a big magnet making sure all things do not float away.

It may appear so simple nowadays to detect gravity but strangly enough, before Newton no one came up with the concept of gravity.

Quote: we know that something we termed gravity exists but whe dont know how it works 100%, just like we know life(not god) exists, but we dont know how it works or what made it.

It really doesnt need a brainer to understand that anything cannot be created out of nothing. There cannot be any logical explaination to this no matter how hard you try.

Quote: life is the product that you think god is resp for, gravity is the product that some people think gravitrons are responsible for, but we have no evidence for gravitrons just as we have none for god, we are looking a "finished" products, we cannot asume we know how they got there, and to me science has a far better explanation than religion to lifes origin.

The only problem in your thinking is that scientists never came and never will come with a proven theory on the creation of life and the universe. So in the end your just accepting scientists theories (you consider this as rational and intelligent thinking) than religious explanation (which you consider irrational and backward thinking). In the end, all what you have a mere theories, could be wrong and could be right, however being right is very unlikely.

Quote: ultimately i dont beleive in god for three reasons:
1. it makes no sense to me

What do you mean it doesnt make any sense to you? The creation of this huge universe by itself doesnt make sense AT ALL to me.

Quote: 2. i see no evidence for it

What kind of evidence that you are looking for?

Quote: 3. i dont need to beleive in it to feel good

That is arrogance and that is your downfall. You need to open your mind and just accept to debate new ideas and what other people have to say cause believe it or not they may be right.

AshTray900 · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 78

pharaoh wrote: AshTray,

Quote: if i am not mistaken Islam accepts the old and new testament as part of history

Well yeah. You wanna try to prove to me that Moses and Jesus didnt exist?
They have disprooven the great flood etc
Quote: they have found many, just because one is missing doesnt make the theory completely invalid

And it doens make it completely valid either. Where is the link between the monkey and the man? They didnt find it yet, and until they find it (which they wont) consider the evolution theory as just a theory and not a fact. ok they have found like 5-10 links between "monkey" and "man" you are getting hung up on terminology im sorry if you dont like the idea that there is not much difference between the two, monkey and man share like 95% of the same dna

Quote: these things can be easily explained, coincidence, that is the answer, you dream of a date that something will happen, well tell me on how many days does something unique not happen???

Coincidence?! I woke up knowing that on that date something will happen. It couldnt be a coincidence and im sure there are alot of people who had these dreams that were far more detailed and precise than mine and did happen. These cannot be coincidence.ok im not going to even say anything here this is a statement of ignorance its like how did the psychic know i was going to have gf troubles, duh, she took a damn guess, and as far as dreams are concerned you say you dreamed a party happened on a particular day and it did, this is totally coincidence, i would say that if 50% of the world dreamed of a nuclear attack on us soil on a certain day and it did then that might be a sign of something more than coincidence but that never happens, a few crackpots claim to have had visions but they always are on the low iq scale and dont really even understand the concept of coincidence entirely. with billions of dreams every night and millions of things that go on in the world in a day the two coinciding is bout to happen many times every night

Quote: scientist cannot create life because life as we know it now, only comes from life, scientist have created the protocells, and cloning is a perfect example of how scientist can facilitate the creation of life

Dont blind yourself, scientists cannot create life out of nothing, they cannot create an animal or a plant cell.
"A few facts give insight into the conditions in which life may have emerged, but the mechanisms by which non-life became life are still elusive."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocell

Quote: in the prescence of lightning, and they remade them in a lab with high voltage

And how did the lightning existe?

Quote: in your favor, the only thing i really dont have a solid theory on is what makes us differently experience things, for example if i take my brain and make and exact copy of it at this point in my life and put it in a clone of me there would be two thinking entities exactly alike but with no connection, the only thing i can figure is that our internal experience is not only a product of the data but also the matter that the data is stored on. you would call this a soul, i personally think this is a logic trap that we have a hard time understanding and our internal awarness is just a product of the energy in our brains, the neuronal pathways, and the matter in which makes up the media, so if one day we can "copy" brains, we still must die and the only thing that surpasses us is our knowledge be used by another internally thinking entity.

the only question really is why are we internally experienceing the data that passes through our processor instead of just reacting without this little window of sight and sound and thought that we are aware of like we assume our computers process data with no experience. this is the only thing that seems to make life unique, without it i would say we have allready created life when we designed the computer. i think this is a logic trap though and a question of self awareness that we don't understand. for example what would it take for the computer to realize that it is there sitting on my desk lol;)

when we as a race figure this out is when "real" artificial intelligence is created. its not that the pc is laking in power, space, or memory its that internal experience that the computer is lacking from becoming self aware

Lets say you have a PC, it contains everything, mother board, processor, TV screen, keyboard,etc... and its all connected together. But what is interesting is that it doesnt work automatically when you connect it together, neither when you connected to a power cable. It only starts when you push the power button. What im trying to say is that push of a button can be considered as its soul. Same thing with us, a baby in his mother belly remains just a piece of meat and flesh then suddenly after 3 months of pregnancy or so the baby suddenly becomes alive. My question is why? and how? I mean what sends a message to the brain telling it to start working? It cant start working by itself you see. That even shows more expressly when a man dies from, lets say a heart attack. Although, all his body and brain remain intacte, you cannot bring him back to life just by replacing the "damaged" body part, which is the brain. WHY? Can you answer this question?

Quote: you are right, from the holy books??

You may have great doubts about the bible but I just advice you to read the koran from cover to cover then Im sure you will have atleast a different opinion.

Quote: i can go outside and view the reults of gravity but i dont assume that somebody lives in the center of the planet with a big magnet making sure all things do not float away.

It may appear so simple nowadays to detect gravity but strangly enough, before Newton no one came up with the concept of gravity.

Quote: we know that something we termed gravity exists but whe dont know how it works 100%, just like we know life(not god) exists, but we dont know how it works or what made it.

It really doesnt need a brainer to understand that anything cannot be created out of nothing. There cannot be any logical explaination to this no matter how hard you try.

Quote: life is the product that you think god is resp for, gravity is the product that some people think gravitrons are responsible for, but we have no evidence for gravitrons just as we have none for god, we are looking a "finished" products, we cannot asume we know how they got there, and to me science has a far better explanation than religion to lifes origin.

The only problem in your thinking is that scientists never came and never will come with a proven theory on the creation of life and the universe. So in the end your just accepting scientists theories (you consider this as rational and intelligent thinking) than religious explanation (which you consider irrational and backward thinking). In the end, all what you have a mere theories, could be wrong and could be right, however being right is very unlikely.

Quote: ultimately i dont beleive in god for three reasons:
1. it makes no sense to me

What do you mean it doesnt make any sense to you? The creation of this huge universe by itself doesnt make sense AT ALL to me.

Quote: 2. i see no evidence for it

What kind of evidence that you are looking for?

Quote: 3. i dont need to beleive in it to feel good

That is arrogance and that is your downfall. You need to open your mind and just accept to debate new ideas and what other people have to say cause believe it or not they may be right.

you are right scientists cannot demonstrate to us as to how the universe got here, but that is not proof of god, or that Islam has the correct version of god. Basically you just want god to be real, you have no proof of his existence, he has never revealed himself to you regardless of what you may say. take the passifier out and look at the world with a more open approach. to question the validity of any religion isnt a sign of being a horrible person is a sign of good reasoning, like i said before the difference between me and you is that you KNOW god is real and i just think that a higher power is not a very good explanation. it is you who is being arrogant.

i agree that we dont know if there is a ghost in the sky who made us all, but we cannot assume that it is real without evidence to support it, and there is none, to say just because we exist is proof of god is a logical error, you are assumeing god is real and he is the reason we are here. using logical errors in an argument doesnt proove anything but that there is an error in the way you are thinking.

i hate to think that some of my ideas anger people but the more we move away from silly superstition and start being more reasonable about things the more we will grow as a species. it baffles me that some silly books by primitive humans have enthralled us in this world where we still think psychics and ghosts are real and that anything spiritual exists at all, im just glad the world is no longer governed by this ridiculous crap. religion will eventually die out but it will be way past my life, but i see the trend, more and more rational thinking and less religion, just look at the world 1000 years ago, religion was forced upon everyone, now religion is regarded for the most part as personal only and many religious people are becoming more rational about how they approach these ideas. the more we learn, the more we grow and the less we seek out answers with nothing that back them up to figure out this world we live in

pharaoh · Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:23 am Post subject:

Quote: you are right scientists cannot demonstrate to us as to how the universe got here, but that is not proof of god, or that Islam has the correct version of god. Basically you just want god to be real, you have no proof of his existence, he has never revealed himself to you regardless of what you may say. take the passifier out and look at the world with a more open approach. to question the validity of any religion isnt a sign of being a horrible person is a sign of good reasoning, like i said before the difference between me and you is that you KNOW god is real and i just think that a higher power is not a very good explanation. it is you who is being arrogant.

Through reasoning I now know for sure that god do exist. Listen, I wasnt born a believer, I wasnt brainwashed, I had my moments of doubts just like most people. But what I did is that I searched for the truth, luckily I was born a muslim, so I was closer to the truth than alot of people, so it was easier for me to find the truth because in Islam everything makes sense. I cant see god but I can feel his presence, I can read his words, his exact words without any kind of deviation. When you hear or read the words of god (especially if its in arabic) you will just have this feeling. You know that these words couldnt be possibly written by any man. I am not a believer because of just reading the koran (to be frank with you I didnt read it completely, just most of time, but ofcourse in prayer I get to hear alot of chapters or verses that I didnt read) there are more reasons like the caracter and the life of prophet Muhammed . Anyway, you must understand that if god had revealed himself to us all we all would have been muslims but that isnt what god wants. He wants us to think, he wants us to wonder, this life is just a test, and you being a rational person is actually a god thing and not against the idea of believing as you may think.

The thing is, you cant create something out of nothing, this world couldnt possibly have been created all by itself, life can not exist by itself; after acknowledging these facts one must pounder about life and its purpose and everything that one takes for granted.
You can convince yourself that you are a rational man and a 'thinker' to the end of your life, you can say that everything can be explained by science and that religious people are backward but the thing is you are arrogant because you believe in something that can not be proved. You sais it yourself, scientists cant explain much about the creation of this world, they cannot create life, they cannot bring a man back from the dead and still you believe in their reasoning and refuse to listen to what religion might have to say, you do so because you consider religion as a drug, a lie told by men thousands of years ago when they couldnt explain what is going on around them. Well whats quite ironic is that till this very day you dont have any proof that they were wrong. Im not saying that any religion is from god, many men did invent their own religion to seek power or to try to make people feel happier or more peaceful or just to find a purpose, somekind of a reason for our existence. But ofcourse there are some religions that are indeed divine. These religions give an explanation to our existence and they offer PROOF of god's existence by many ways. So the difference between you and me is that I found a rational explanation to god's existence in my religion while you, on the other hand, convince yourself that you are rational and a 'progressive thinker' while in reality you dont have any kind of proof or good logical explanation to life and the beginning of creation. On top of that, you refuse to even give religion a chance, you took your views for granted and you say you dont need god. That is arrogance. That is why people go to hell, because they are to arrogant to search for the truth. You are not searching for the truth, science didnt give you any rational or logical explanation to your questions, why do you believe in it so firmly and why refuse to search for the truth somewhere else, that may have the answers for what you are looking for?!

why dont you just read a bit, just out of curiosity:

www.al-quran.org.uk

AshTray900 · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 78

pharaoh wrote: Quote: you are right scientists cannot demonstrate to us as to how the universe got here, but that is not proof of god, or that Islam has the correct version of god. Basically you just want god to be real, you have no proof of his existence, he has never revealed himself to you regardless of what you may say. take the passifier out and look at the world with a more open approach. to question the validity of any religion isnt a sign of being a horrible person is a sign of good reasoning, like i said before the difference between me and you is that you KNOW god is real and i just think that a higher power is not a very good explanation. it is you who is being arrogant.

Through reasoning I now know for sure that god do exist. Listen, I wasnt born a believer, I wasnt brainwashed, I had my moments of doubts just like most people. But what I did is that I searched for the truth, luckily I was born a muslim, so I was closer to the truth than alot of people, so it was easier for me to find the truth because in Islam everything makes sense. I cant see god but I can feel his presence, I can read his words, his exact words without any kind of deviation. When you hear or read the words of god (especially if its in arabic) you will just have this feeling. You know that these words couldnt be possibly written by any man. I am not a believer because of just reading the koran (to be frank with you I didnt read it completely, just most of time, but ofcourse in prayer I get to hear alot of chapters or verses that I didnt read) there are more reasons like the caracter and the life of prophet Muhammed . Anyway, you must understand that if god had revealed himself to us all we all would have been muslims but that isnt what god wants. He wants us to think, he wants us to wonder, this life is just a test, and you being a rational person is actually a god thing and not against the idea of believing as you may think.

The thing is, you cant create something out of nothing, this world couldnt possibly have been created all by itself, life can not exist by itself; after acknowledging these facts one must pounder about life and its purpose and everything that one takes for granted.
You can convince yourself that you are a rational man and a 'thinker' to the end of your life, you can say that everything can be explained by science and that religious people are backward but the thing is you are arrogant because you believe in something that can not be proved. You sais it yourself, scientists cant explain much about the creation of this world, they cannot create life, they cannot bring a man back from the dead and still you believe in their reasoning and refuse to listen to what religion might have to say, you do so because you consider religion as a drug, a lie told by men thousands of years ago when they couldnt explain what is going on around them. Well whats quite ironic is that till this very day you dont have any proof that they were wrong. Im not saying that any religion is from god, many men did invent their own religion to seek power or to try to make people feel happier or more peaceful or just to find a purpose, somekind of a reason for our existence. But ofcourse there are some religions that are indeed divine. These religions give an explanation to our existence and they offer PROOF of god's existence by many ways. So the difference between you and me is that I found a rational explanation to god's existence in my religion while you, on the other hand, convince yourself that you are rational and a 'progressive thinker' while in reality you dont have any kind of proof or good logical explanation to life and the beginning of creation. On top of that, you refuse to even give religion a chance, you took your views for granted and you say you dont need god. That is arrogance. That is why people go to hell, because they are to arrogant to search for the truth. You are not searching for the truth, science didnt give you any rational or logical explanation to your questions, why do you believe in it so firmly and why refuse to search for the truth somewhere else, that may have the answers for what you are looking for?!

why dont you just read a bit, just out of curiosity:

www.al-quran.org.uk

ive read alot of different scriptures and they offer nothing but logical incohearence, who ever said i beleived in science, i think scientific answers to some things seem more rational. but you are right we as the human race cannot determin wether or not the universe was created or has always existed and if created there was an intelligent force responsible. you dont know this either. but when we settle on an answer as 100% true when there is no evidence for either side of the story we just hurt ourselves because we dont ponder different ideas and come to better conclusions. to put all "faith" in Islam and not remain open minded is just not a good thing for the intellect of the human race as a whole, is it so bad to think that we dont know everything now and who knows if we ever will, but stay open minded and dont stand on an idea that is in a pool with many other just as possible ideas (and no matter what you say christianity, greek mythology, judaism, atheisim, intelligent design, evolutionism and the rest are just as likely at being the "truth" as islam)

WE AS A HUMAN RACE CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS WITH CERTANTY - so stop assume you know everything and i know nothing. i cant disprove your ideas

but the non rational side of religion (demons, magic, ghosts, ouiji boards, prophecies) are not good answers to anything, they do not exist today in the physical world we experience and we cannot deny that.

the intelligent design of the universe is not a bad theory nor is that the universe has always existed or that it was created by some process rather than intelligence.

WE DONT KNOW - thats what i beleive, i reject the things that seem in direct contradiction to the natural world (demons and magic etc) but i do not totally reject the idea of intelligent design at its core.

And dont get bent out of shape over evolution, this is a very strong theory and it is not proof that there was no intelligent force at work. i dont understand why creationist feel that evolution threatens the existence of a creator? this isnt logical, its just as possible that evolution was the process put in place by a creator. evolution does make the adam and eve story seem not so literal but there are tons of other parts of the quran, bible etc that have been show to most likely not be literally true

pharaoh · Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:40 am Post subject:

Quote: ive read alot of different scriptures and they offer nothing but logical incohearence

Question: Did you read the Quran? I provided you with a link, did you check it out?

Quote: who ever said i beleived in science, i think scientific answers to some things seem more rational

Ah so you dont believe in science, then you just chose to believe in certain things that you find more rational than other things which might not be the same case with other people (like me) so in the end all what you have is a POINT OF VIEW. Just an opinion, you chose what seems rational to you even though your views cannot be proved, while my views or believes are based on many years of search and thinking until now (thank god) I am very sure of my believes. In other words, your views are based upon theories while mine are based more upon logical and rational thinking. I have many things in the Quran and other places that can prove my points of view and all what you have is just bunch of theories that some scientits came up with, further more, scientists always contradict each other, so it is not bizarre if tomorrow some scientits will come up with new theories that contradict any well known theory today and it will be the "new thing" and then after tomorrow alot others will come up with something else and that will always keeps happening. So what you have in the end? Opinions...views...theories...all cannot be proved in any way. You say you dont believe in science in the first place? Then what do you believe in? Cause if you even dont believe in scientists theories on creation then where do your views come from?

It seems that you have a problem, you just dont believe in religions because you just consider them fake and thats it. So do you believe in science? No you dont also. So what do you have in the end? Your views are based sololy on your view of the world. You just dont believe in religions and thats it. So what is your alternative to religion? Nothing.

Now instead of you and me running around in circles, I think that its best to ask you:
What are you looking for? I mean, what kind of evidence that you are looking for in a holy book to prove that its indeed divine? Have you ever thought about that? Well in case you didnt, then just think about it for a moment and tell me what kind of evidence are you looking for?

AshTray900 · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 78

pharaoh wrote: Quote: ive read alot of different scriptures and they offer nothing but logical incohearence

Question: Did you read the Quran? I provided you with a link, did you check it out?

Quote: who ever said i beleived in science, i think scientific answers to some things seem more rational

Ah so you dont believe in science, then you just chose to believe in certain things that you find more rational than other things which might not be the same case with other people (like me) so in the end all what you have is a POINT OF VIEW. Just an opinion, you chose what seems rational to you even though your views cannot be proved, while my views or believes are based on many years of search and thinking until now (thank god) I am very sure of my believes. In other words, your views are based upon theories while mine are based more upon logical and rational thinking. I have many things in the Quran and other places that can prove my points of view and all what you have is just bunch of theories that some scientits came up with, further more, scientists always contradict each other, so it is not bizarre if tomorrow some scientits will come up with new theories that contradict any well known theory today and it will be the "new thing" and then after tomorrow alot others will come up with something else and that will always keeps happening. So what you have in the end? Opinions...views...theories...all cannot be proved in any way. You say you dont believe in science in the first place? Then what do you believe in? Cause if you even dont believe in scientists theories on creation then where do your views come from?

It seems that you have a problem, you just dont believe in religions because you just consider them fake and thats it. So do you believe in science? No you dont also. So what do you have in the end? Your views are based sololy on your view of the world. You just dont believe in religions and thats it. So what is your alternative to religion? Nothing.

Now instead of you and me running around in circles, I think that its best to ask you:
What are you looking for? I mean, what kind of evidence that you are looking for in a holy book to prove that its indeed divine? Have you ever thought about that? Well in case you didnt, then just think about it for a moment and tell me what kind of evidence are you looking for?

im not looking for evidence in a holy book, evidence cannot exist in a book, you cannot assume that a book is devine by reading the book alone and assumeing so (another logical error). you are taking muhammeds word for it! you have no idea if he was inspired by god or not as the same with jesus.

utimately, the creation of the universe may be the case, but the "holy" books are garbage and full of bad morals along with the good ones, i do not dislike the idea that there may have been creative forces behind the scenes of the universe, but i dislike the holy books, they are nonsense and to say differently is quite silly. to say someone else will go to hell for praying to a "god" by a different name is the most dumb ass thing ive ever heard, or that leading a good life is not the key to heaven , but rather beleiving in the right god, its these ideas that i throw in the garbage, they are worthless and i wish wed take the holy books for what they are , somebody elses interpretation, and allow ourselves to reinterpret the idea.

I DONT BELEIVE A BOOK CAN BE DEVINE! thats it especially not with contraditions and on the surface being really evil.

i have read parts of the quran and when i get ore time i will read more from your link, you should read it all the way through along with the ot and nt.

pharaoh · Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:38 am Post subject:

Quote: im not looking for evidence in a holy book

U still didnt answer my question, what kind of evidence are you looking for? Is it that hard to answer this question?! I know, you dont have an answer.Then please let me tell you that an evidence from a holy book which contains god's words is the most powerful evidence you may find apart from seeing god himself, which you wont cause if you do you will believe in him instantely and that is not what god wants, god want to test us, it wouldnt be much of a test if he gave u all the answers now wouldnt it?

Quote: cannot assume that a book is devine by reading the book alone and assumeing so (another logical error).

I said I believe because of many reasons, the quran being one of those reasons. In Islam everything makes sense, there is no hidden doubts or unanswered questions that someone might find in Christianity. When you read about prophet Muhammed (from Islamic sources) you will know that this man is indeed a prophet, all his life, before and after he received the message is a prove to that.

Quote: you are taking muhammeds word for it! you have no idea if he was inspired by god or not as the same with jesus.

There are so much things that you dont know about prophet Muhammed, some of these things is that he was illiterate, he was never fully informed about Christianity or Judaism, he was known to his people (even before the message) as the honest and the one who safe keep a man's belongings, he never hurt someone, he was living well not poor, he had no enemies, he was admired by everyone. In short, when you read more about prophet Muhammed's life you will begin to understand that the Quran couldnt have been written by him, even more, no human being can write even a chapter like the Quran. This is just a glimpse of why the Quran couldnt have been written by Muhammed, there are ALOT of reasons...

Quote: utimately, the creation of the universe may be the case, but the "holy" books are garbage

Religions are here to guide us to the right path, god wants us to live a happy and a good life, now we cannot do so if we create our own laws and way of life, thats why religions are here. They provide us with god's commands and laws, we were not created just to play on earth, no we were created for a purpose, that is to worship god and live a good life on earth, so there must be some rules to guide us to the right path, now for how long do you think god's commands will remain unchanged by time or immoral men if they were oral and not written?! The Torah has been modified. Now what will happen if some people (who the Christians call saints) write a holy book based on Jesus sayings? Will they succeed in writing all and every word Jesus said? Ofcourse not, especially that they wrote the bible years after Jesus was raised. Now what about the Quran? In case you dont know, there is only 1 Quran throughout the world. More than 1 billion muslims read from the same holy book. By saying the "same" I mean it literaly, there is not even 1 single letter or word missing or modified. Why? Because god promised in the Quran that he will protect it from any modification or change til the end of times, and after more than 1450 years there is one and only Quran. You draw your own conclusions.

Quote: and full of bad morals along with the good ones

If you can prove to me that there is one single immorality in the Quran like an order to kill or steal or lie or cheat or wage war or to envy or to shout or to be arrogant...etc I will consider changing my religion, how about that? But if you couldnt find such a thing then I imploy you to give yourself a chance and to dig deeper into Islam.

Quote: to say someone else will go to hell for praying to a "god" by a different name

In Islam god has 99 names!

Quote: or that leading a good life is not the key to heaven , but rather beleiving in the right god, its these ideas that i throw in the garbage

Ok I want you to take out all the Christian believes out of your head cause in Islam there is no such thing as the "original sin" or that you will be saved no matter what you do if you believe that Jesus is your saviour. In Islam every man has 2 angels besides him (one at each side) whenever you commit a sin it is written in a book by an angel and whenever you make a good deed it is written by the other angel. In Judgement day, everyman will be judged by god himself he will show you your book and whenever you deny that you made a certain sin your hands or tongue or legs (whatever) will talk and say that you did indeed commit such a sin.And in the end you will only go to heaven if your good deeds are more than your sins. Another thing that may give you an idea about how merciful god is, god consider every sin by 1 while every good deed by 10 fold. So when you make a sin you get 1, when you make a good deed you get a 10. And ofcourse if you repent god erase your sins.
So take all the Christian believes out of your mind when you are talking about Islam.

AshTray900 · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 78

pharaoh wrote: Quote: im not looking for evidence in a holy book

U still didnt answer my question, what kind of evidence are you looking for? Is it that hard to answer this question?! I know, you dont have an answer.Then please let me tell you that an evidence from a holy book which contains god's words is the most powerful evidence you may find apart from seeing god himself, which you wont cause if you do you will believe in him instantely and that is not what god wants, god want to test us, it wouldnt be much of a test if he gave u all the answers now wouldnt it?im not looking for any evidence of god, im not trying to persuade myself to beleive anything i go through my life using deductive reasoning on what i see hear taste smell and feel.

Quote: cannot assume that a book is devine by reading the book alone and assumeing so (another logical error).

I said I believe because of many reasons, the quran being one of those reasons. In Islam everything makes sense, there is no hidden doubts or unanswered questions that someone might find in Christianity.this is just illogical because you read it assumeing it is real from the start, you have a faith filter on your deductive reasoning when it comes to that book When you read about prophet Muhammed (from Islamic sources) you will know that this man is indeed a prophet again you cannot know this, all his life, before and after he received the message is a prove to that.

Quote: you are taking muhammeds word for it! you have no idea if he was inspired by god or not as the same with jesus.

There are so much things that you dont know about prophet Muhammed, some of these things is that he was illiterate, he was never fully informed about Christianity or Judaism, he was known to his people (even before the message) as the honest and the one who safe keep a man's belongings, he never hurt someone, he was living well not poor, he had no enemies, he was admired by everyone. In short, when you read more about prophet Muhammed's life you will begin to understand that the Quran couldnt have been written by him, even more, no human being can write even a chapter like the Quran. This is just a glimpse of why the Quran couldnt have been written by Muhammed, there are ALOT of reasons... you aremaking all of these assumptions that the koran is real because the koran says its real (one of the most common religious logical errors)

Quote: utimately, the creation of the universe may be the case, but the "holy" books are garbage

Religions are here to guide us to the right path, god wants us to live a happy and a good life, now we cannot do so if we create our own laws and way of life, thats why religions are here. They provide us with god's commands and laws, we were not created just to play on earth, no we were created for a purpose, that is to worship god and live a good life on earth, so there must be some rules to guide us to the right path, now for how long do you think god's commands will remain unchanged by time or immoral men if they were oral and not written?! The Torah has been modified. Now what will happen if some people (who the Christians call saints) write a holy book based on Jesus sayings? Will they succeed in writing all and every word Jesus said? Ofcourse not, especially that they wrote the bible years after Jesus was raised. Now what about the Quran? In case you dont know, there is only 1 Quran throughout the world. More than 1 billion muslims read from the same holy book. By saying the "same" I mean it literaly, there is not even 1 single letter or word missing or modified. Why? Because god promised in the Quran that he will protect it from any modification or change til the end of times, and after more than 1450 years there is one and only Quran. You draw your own conclusions. when i say creation im not saying devinity (god) all powerfull and all knowing - to me this is just stupid - more so just another lifeform with more knowlege than us, but i really dont buy it bc of no evidence but i think it could be possible
Quote: and full of bad morals along with the good ones

If you can prove to me that there is one single immorality in the Quran like an order to kill or steal or lie or cheat or wage war or to envy or to shout or to be arrogant...etc I will consider changing my religion, how about that? But if you couldnt find such a thing then I imploy you to give yourself a chance and to dig deeper into Islam. reread the beginning of this thread there were many passages ordering such things posted here that you or nobody else could say anything except taking out of context and would never post the rest of it to back that up

Quote: to say someone else will go to hell for praying to a "god" by a different name

In Islam god has 99 names! yeah well just add a few more and there is no real diff in islam and christianity except islam added one more book

Quote: or that leading a good life is not the key to heaven , but rather beleiving in the right god, its these ideas that i throw in the garbage

Ok I want you to take out all the Christian believes out of your head cause in Islam there is no such thing as the "original sin" or that you will be saved no matter what you do if you believe that Jesus is your saviour. In Islam every man has 2 angels besides him (one at each side) whenever you commit a sin it is written in a book by an angel and whenever you make a good deed it is written by the other angel. In Judgement day, everyman will be judged by god himself he will show you your book and whenever you deny that you made a certain sin your hands or tongue or legs (whatever) will talk and say that you did indeed commit such a sin.And in the end you will only go to heaven if your good deeds are more than your sins. Another thing that may give you an idea about how merciful god is, god consider every sin by 1 while every good deed by 10 fold. So when you make a sin you get 1, when you make a good deed you get a 10. And ofcourse if you repent god erase your sins.
So take all the Christian believes out of your mind when you are talking about Islam.

take christianity out of islam, hah this is a joke, according to islam the old and new testaments are relavent, if you pull the rug out from under the old testament , they all come crumbling down! Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all based upon the old testament and they acknowledge that. and all of that silly garbage is in the old testament!

you asked me what i "beleive" well thats a loaded word, i think that it is most likely the case that the universe has always existed in some fashion (i base this on the fact that the only reason to beleive in a creator is because of the notion that something cant come from nothing, and a creator wont fix that issue because it still leaves the question where did he come from, and who created him). it seems to me that there is stong evidence that evolution is the case for the complex life we see today, however how the process got started in the first place is not clear (possible intelligent seeding of the planet, an unknown chemical process, or migration from another planet via asteroids with bacteria). its seems quite obvious (to me) that religion is something that we created and is a part of evolution and the way our brain works (it helps us maintain order and just in an unjust cruel disorderly world and also gives us the security of not "having" to die and the feeling that someone will always love us) read some psych books - this is the most widely accepted psychological views on religion. to answer whether or not i think any of our religions have anything real behind them or not, i would have to say no, they were the views of ancient times when the world was supposed to be flat and the sky (heaven) was the end of the universe and nobody could see below the flat earth (hell)i mean just look at it, the fires of hell and underneath the crust there is lava. if you can get in the mind of the times back then it all makes sense they were describing the intelligent design theory as best they could back then, well we as a human race are much more intelligent now and whereas that theory may still hold up i think it ridiculous to still consider primitave explanations of that theory.

bottom line here is that the only logical application of religion is the intelllgent design theory, the rest is nonsense really, all of the supposed devine books were written by men just like a time to kill by john grissam and were just the veiws of that person.

ANYBODY WHO ASSUMES MUHAMMED WAS INSPIRED BY GOD IS TAKING HIS WORD FOR IT AND NOTHING MORE!

i could tell you that i am 10 million years old, i can say i created the world and i want so very badly for you all to acknowlege me, will you beleive me? and you cannot ask me to proove anything because you gave muhammed the benifit of the doubt and never expected proof of his ideas.

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:14 am Post subject:

Quote: im not looking for any evidence of god, im not trying to persuade myself to beleive anything i go through my life using deductive reasoning on what i see hear taste smell and feel.

If not looking for any evidence of god then this conversation is futile and we are just wasting each other time. If you are this type of person who says he will only believe in god when he see or hear him then there aint much I can do now can I? Especially that even you cant prove your views. You believe in the evolution theory even though there are so many holes in it, you believe that religion holds us back and by dumbing it we will evolve as a species. Well, this is your point of view, you dont have any facts and when you dont have any facts it means that all what you have are some theories. Doesnt quite make your views bullet proof huh?
On the other hand, religious people have an evidence to god's existence, his very own words. There are so many amazing things about the Quran and the life of prophet Muhammed that we muslims know that makes us so sure and confident about our faith. All the Islamic sites I have been to on the net dont do Islam justice. Thats why I really recommend that you read some Islamic books to have an idea why muslims believe so firmly in their faith, what makes it special and unique.
However, if you still think that you will only believe in god when you see or hear or feel him then our conversation is really useless cause you are not searching for god in the first place so why would god search for you?

Quote: this is just illogical because you read it assuming it is real from the start, you have a faith filter on your deductive reasoning when it comes to that book

As I said before and I will say again: there are so many reasons that prove that the Quran was not written by a man. If you want to know these reasons then you have to read but alas you dont want to read cause religion is irrational and backward....what a dilemma :roll:

Quote: you are making all of these assumptions that the koran is real because the koran says its real (one of the most common religious logical errors)

Go ahead prove to me that it is unreal, do your best. However, thousands of people tried to do this before you and didnt succeed or they just thought it their mind that they succeeded and they refused to listen to reason and all the rational explanations presented to them.

Quote: when i say creation im not saying divinity (god) all powerful and all knowing - to me this is just stupid - more so just another lifeform with more knowledge than us, but i really dont buy it bc of no evidence but i think it could be possible

Ok you thing it is stupid that god created the universe yet you believe that this universe could have been created by "another lifeform with more knowlege than us"?! Question: And who created these creatures that created the universe?!

Quote: reread the beginning of this thread there were many passages ordering such things posted here that you or nobody else could say anything except taking out of context and would never post the rest of it to back that up

No out of context makes a 180 degrees difference between (for example) "kill all unbelievers" everywhere and "kill all the unbelievers" that already waged war on the muslims who must defend themselves or be annihilated. However, in Islam is the enemy seeks peace then muslims are advised to give peace a chance.
The context of the verses and chapters means everything.

Quote: yeah well just add a few more and there is no real diff in islam and christianity except islam added one more book

Again thats what you think and what are your views based upon? Nothing, you didnt even read the Quran and you dont want to and you dont even wanna give religion a chance. You refute everything that religion may have to say and you believe firmly in your evolution and creation theories which are based on nothing. That is not quite smart isnt it?

Quote: take christianity out of islam, hah this is a joke, according to islam the old and new testaments are relevant, if you pull the rug out from under the old testament , they all come crumbling down! Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all based upon the old testament and they acknowledge that. and all of that silly garbage is in the old testament!

Your poor understanding of Islam is amazing, one even wonder about how strong you refute religion and Islam while your understanding to it is very very limited. Its like a teacher asking you to compare between 2 objects and you dont examine these objects before you compare them, you just start comparing between the 2 objects right away because you think you got them figured out just by looking at them. You have this view that any kind of religion must be a lie and therefore you think you dont have to read any more about religion cause you think that religion is stupid and was invented but now humans must evolve and accept the fact that they are going to die and there aint nothing after death. You believe so firmly in your views (which are only theories and cannot be proved) that it clouded your judgment and brainwashed your mind. In such a state it is impossible to debate with you.

Quote: you asked me what i "believe" well thats a loaded word, i think that it is most likely the case that the universe has always existed in some fashion (i base this on the fact that the only reason to believe in a creator is because of the notion that something cant come from nothing, and a creator wont fix that issue because it still leaves the question where did he come from, and who created him).

Our simple minds cannot explain how god came to exist and god doesnt explain to us how he came to exist. But the existence of god that created everything is more logical to me (and to most people) than the creation of this world from nothing. You cant create anything from nothing and dont wait for a scientific explanation cause there wont be one. Where did Oxygen and hydrogen and the rest of the elements came from? How was the first Oxygen molecule formed? How the electrons and the neutrons and protons were created and came together to form a molecule? And how was an atom formed? How was the DNA created? What gave a conscious to a rock? How was life created from nothing? Was it really lightning that hit an object that resulted in the creation of life? If so then why the hell cant scientists do such a thing in their labs and no it doesnt require a whole lot of technology and no such knowledge is not further ahead of us. Why cant people come back from the dead, if the soul really doesnt exist then that should be a very simple thing to do, just like turning a machine on and off by a push on a button. C'mon seriously, if a man dies from a stroke and he was immediately frozen then why cant doctors and scientists replace his heart with a new one and then bring him back to life? Why why why...too many questions that cannot be answered and I didnt even start talking about all the evidences that are present in the Quran that give proof ( to those who open their mind) that god does indeed exist.

Quote: it seems to me that there is stong evidence that evolution is the case for the complex life we see today, however how the process got started in the first place is not clear (possible intelligent seeding of the planet, an unknown chemical process, or migration from another planet via asteroids with bacteria).

"It seems to me". Here again you said it yourself, you are not certain, your views do not give you ultimate satisfaction because you know that they could be wrong. I mean if you wanna talk about evolution then please give yourself a moment of relaxation and just look out of your window, you see many people walking doing what they do, you see a beautiful view, green trees, sunset and sunrise. I want you at that moment to stop taking the things you see everyday for granted and to start pondering on what the hell is going on around you. Why we the human beings are the only evolved and intelligent life form on this planet, when you see all the people walking down the street then wonder why are we the only creatures that are like this. Look to me evolution is some kind of a race, something evolve from something very close to it and then continue evolving and improving. Dogs, tigers, cats...etc.. they are all pretty much like each other but yes they are different but they do have some fundamental similarities, all walk on four, they eat meat, they all have tails, they have pretty much the same intelligence, their only concern each day is to stay alive and they try to do so using their brains, some creatures may be a little smarter than the others but on the whole the differences arent that big. Now take the humans, we are the only creatures that walk on 2 with a straight back, our intelligence capability is waaay more advance than any other creature that you can think of, unlike any other creature we are unique in our beauty, you see if you put 10,000 tigers together in one place you they will all look pretty much the same to you. Yeah there are alot of types of tigers like the sheta and the winter tiger, yeah these are different but if you put 10,000 winter tinger together you wouldnt be able to differentiate between them, they all look the same. That is because they are meant to look the same. But we, humans, each one of use has his own unique face, you will never find 2 human beings that look EXACTLY (there is some differences between twins) the same. That is because we, humans, are unique. Why isnt there any creature that share with us some of our characteristics? I mean, why isnt there a creature that could rival our intelligence, be it a flying creature or a creature that lives on land or under wanter....why?
The fact is the evolution theory s*cks big time.

Quote: its seems quite obvious (to me) that religion is something that we created and is a part of evolution and the way our brain works

If some one you dont know called you on the phone and told you that your grand mother died from cancer, will you believe him right away?!
You cant condemn all religions as being created by men without verifying first. So whats obvious to you is not obvious to me or anyone else who checks first before forming an opinion.

Quote: read some psych books

I told you that in ancient times people used to create religion just to be happier or to restore order in a society but that doesnt mean that all religions were created by man. You see it is in our blood, god inserted this feeling that without him we feel that there is something missing that cannot be fulfilled with any thing earthly. God inserted this feeling in us to make it easier for us to believe in him.

theinfamy · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 19 Location: Cincinatti

There are many countries with terrorists, Congo, Colombia, Spain, Ireland, all christian countries. The media will report on only what they want that will grab attention from its watchers. Scare tactics and all that nonsense.

JS · Joined: 30 Dec 2005 Posts: 183 Location: USA

theinfamy wrote: There are many countries with terrorists, Congo, Colombia, Spain, Ireland, all christian countries. The media will report on only what they want that will grab attention from its watchers. Scare tactics and all that nonsense.

Terrorists are terrorists no matter their ideological path, but only one flavor of terrorist currently is promoting a worldwide ideological war with a very disturbing end goal by mixing religion with politics. So that is the terrorist which is the most dangerous to us all. It is hardly scare tactics when reports are made on 50 odd Londoners blown up going to work, 3000 people of all races and religions turned into dust as two buildings collapse, or a 100 Muslims are killed in a Mosque in Iraq, to name just a very few of the atrocities. It is hardly scare mongering when thousands of everyday Citizens of certain countries dance in the street when some of these things happen. Scare mongering is cutting the heads off of people on video.

JS

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16431 Location: On Earth

Not to mention the 3,000 or so Palestinians that have been killed at the hands of the IDF terrorists since the year 1998. :?

theinfamy · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 19 Location: Cincinatti

JS, i think you were talking about those palestinians dancing in the street at the time of 9/11....if so they were dancing about a total different thing. Not 9/11. I'll try to find the article. I know terrorism is just an idealogy and not related to religion, but the mass media will only report on things they want to, i guess you havent heard of the mass killings in Congo, the killing in Haiti a few months ago. But then again, i assume you get youre daily news from Fox.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16431 Location: On Earth

Indeed. Didn't you know that your Secretary of Treasury Paul Wolfowitz conDONED massacres in East Timor that killed 800,000 innocent civilians?

And then again, there's that story of the Israeli intelligence agents who were happily dancing about when the World Trade Center got hit. They were posing for photos and cheering like crazy. Palestinians didn't dance on the streets at the time of 9/11 at all. That was probably a wedding or engagement party that was happening on that day. JS, you don't live in the Middle East to understand our mentality firsthand.

JS · Joined: 30 Dec 2005 Posts: 183 Location: USA

Moath wrote: Indeed. Didn't you know that your Secretary of Treasury Paul Wolfowitz conDONED massacres in East Timor that killed 800,000 innocent civilians?

And then again, there's that story of the Israeli intelligence agents who were happily dancing about when the World Trade Center got hit. They were posing for photos and cheering like crazy. Palestinians didn't dance on the streets at the time of 9/11 at all. That was probably a wedding or engagement party that was happening on that day. JS, you don't live in the Middle East to understand our mentality firsthand.

Interesting replys, you assume I am ignorant of your culture and have no contact with it simply because I gainsay something you believe in. Responding to the other replys to my post, I can assure you I do not get news only from FOX, I listen to as many different outlets as possible. Believe me, I understand your mentality quite well, I have been there. Also, I have a christian Palestinian friend, talk about an oppressed people, they take the cake.

I just read the rest of what I had written and it was more confrontational than I wanted, so I deleted it. However, of all the claims you made, the Wolfowitz thing was the silliest. So please tell me where I can read this 'fact' that he condoned the killing of 800,000 people, I am literally 'dieing' to read it. Also, I have to ask this. Is burning an American flag and carrying signs that say "Down with America" among other things part of a traditional wedding/engagement party?

JS

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16431 Location: On Earth

Also, I have to ask this. Is burning an American flag and carrying signs that say "Down with America" among other things part of a traditional wedding/engagement party?

You seriously think that the media is telling you the truth? :lol:
They may have shown this on a Pakistani street or something.
And even if, you're talking about a few individuals, compared to millions of others who wouldn't do such a thing.

However, of all the claims you made, the Wolfowitz thing was the silliest. So please tell me where I can read this 'fact' that he condoned the killing of 800,000 people, I am literally 'dieing' to read it.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article10622.html?var_recherche=card+deck+?var_recherche=card%20deck

Email the guys there to give you the full facts about his condoning. I lost my email from them.\

Have you been to Palestine? Have you seen the oppression? It's off-topic, I know.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Have you been to Palestine? Have you seen the oppression?

You mean that it is more of a police state than North Korea, or in fact any other place in the world? Of course the fact that the police happen to be majority Muslim shouldn't skew the blame away from them and their Fatah controllers.....

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16431 Location: On Earth

Hey, Reason. I can see that you posted something new on this thread.

However, because I am ignoring you, I'm not going to reply, cause, well, I don't see your post.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Moat: I know you'll read this, so can't you see that I agreed with you...we both decried the oppression of the Palestinians

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16431 Location: On Earth

But you didn't decry the oppression of the Palestinians by the Israeli people. You just love to blame Arabs, do you?

The PA, not Fatah, is responsible for the oppression as well, but not in a large part: the PA did not bulldoze homes, kill infant babies, instilled curfews, denied freedom of movement, and got away with it...

But you're going :ot: