Political Crossfire Forums

Lord Hargreaves · Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 7101 Location: Herefordshire

Is the wearing of the burqa necessary to be a good muslim? If not, why would women wish to wear it? To me, it just strikes me as female oppression :-|

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

Not female oppression, mainly because they choose to wear it. They don't want to be seen as sex objects most of the times.

Lord Hargreaves · Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 7101 Location: Herefordshire

Locke25 wrote: Not female oppression, mainly because they choose to wear it. They don't want to be seen as sex objects most of the times.

So some women feel that being viewed as male possession is better than being viewed as a "sex object"? Strange.

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

Lord Hargreaves wrote: Locke25 wrote: Not female oppression, mainly because they choose to wear it. They don't want to be seen as sex objects most of the times.

So some women feel that being viewed as male possession is better than being viewed as a "sex object"? Strange.

wearing burqas does not make them a male possession. i dont know where you get that from.

Lord Hargreaves · Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 7101 Location: Herefordshire

Locke25 wrote: Lord Hargreaves wrote: Locke25 wrote: Not female oppression, mainly because they choose to wear it. They don't want to be seen as sex objects most of the times.

So some women feel that being viewed as male possession is better than being viewed as a "sex object"? Strange.

wearing burqas does not make them a male possession. i dont know where you get that from.

I don't know, the appearance?

They aren't worn so all of mankind won't view them as sex objects, they're worn so other men won't view them as sex objects, and only their husband can. Its a form of slavery.

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

mmkay, we've got problems.

first, what's the deal with that burqa pic? most do not cover up that much, so stop exaggerating

second, i don't understand when you say mankind vs. other men. it's pretty much the same thing. i mean, you can basically remove women from "mankind" because they aren't going to be looking at other women as sexual objects. which basically leaves other men. so they're the same thing... unless you're trying to say something else?

third, it's not a form of slavery. it's the exact opposite. women choose to wear them so they won't going to be seen just as sex objects that bow down to every man's need. it really is 'protecting' them from any type of slave relationship with their husbands.

Lord Hargreaves · Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 7101 Location: Herefordshire

Locke25 wrote: mmkay, we've got problems.

first, what's the deal with that burqa pic? most do not cover up that much, so stop exaggerating

This is what people are wearing now in the West. Its the Arabisation of Western Islam

Quote: second, i don't understand when you say mankind vs. other men. it's pretty much the same thing. i mean, you can basically remove women from "mankind" because they aren't going to be looking at other women as sexual objects. which basically leaves other men. so they're the same thing... unless you're trying to say something else?

third, it's not a form of slavery. it's the exact opposite. women choose to wear them so they won't going to be seen just as sex objects that bow down to every man's need. it really is 'protecting' them from any type of slave relationship with their husbands

I'm saying the burqa is a way of expressing the husbands "ownership" of his wife. The burqa isn't to stop all men treating her as a sex object, it is to deny the women being a sexual object to everyone other than her husband. Its a way the husband can establish his wife as his slave, by removing any sexuality from her, as a way of removing threat from other "competitors". In the same way slave owners would ban sexual relations between slaves and free people because it endangered the hieracy, so do husbands force their wives to wear the burqa.

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

Quote: This is what people are wearing now in the West. Its the Arabisation of Western Islam

i'll just pretend like that didn't go way over my head.
but regardless of whatever it meant, it shouldn't be associated with Islam, more like the Middle East area...ish.., seeing as the women started wearing them before Islam was created :)

Quote: I'm saying the burqa is a way of expressing the husbands "ownership" of his wife. The burqa isn't to stop all men treating her as a sex object, it is to deny the women being a sexual object to everyone other than her husband. Its a way the husband can establish his wife as his slave, by removing any sexuality from her, as a way of removing threat from other "competitors". In the same way slave owners would ban sexual relations between slaves and free people because it endangered the hieracy, so do husbands force their wives to wear the burqa.

you act like women want there to be other "competitors" if they have a husband (at least i hope they don't :lol:)
and i've already told you, women choose to wear them, not the husbands. but believe whatever you want. i suggest you look into it more, though.
also, assuming Muslim men follow the qur'an, they would not see women as sex objects.

pharaoh · Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: Re: The burqa

Lord Hargreaves wrote: Is the wearing of the burqa necessary to be a good muslim? If not, why would women wish to wear it? To me, it just strikes me as female oppression :-|

According to Islam,a women should wear a hijab.Its intention is to make women wear decent clothes that dont reveal their body and so turn heads.
It is somekind of a dress code but with great freedom.Meaning,the women could wear any colours she like,she can put make up on her face.God just dont want women to go all wild and so force men to be only interested in them sexualy.A women wearing a hijab MUST be respected.She choose to wear it to gard herself from any kind of evil and to stop tempting men.
In a broader view,in a community where most women are wearing hijab and most men fear god you will have less rate of violence and rape and adultery.
Families will be more stable and happy.
God didnt impose hijab on women to make them feel inferior,on the contrary,its to give women more respect.
Women in western societies may have equal rights to men.But that is all just on paper.Lets say a large majority of men view women as inferior to them and they are mainly ways to satesfy their sexual needs.
dont believe me? Its all around you.In fashion magazins,TVs,music,...
Women are used by men in power to make more money by revealing their body.
Nowadays a women must look perfect in order to feel good about herself.
In high schools in the US.Students (boys and girls) usually make fun of a girl who is still virgin.How is that respecting her?

And if you wanna talk more about female oppression,why dont we discuss what the Torah says about women huh?
I guess you are jewish right? Well even if you are christian we can always see what the bible says about women how about that?

Geneviève · Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 668

I see a lot of generalities being made on both sides, by people who could not possibly know enough about all Muslim women or all Muslim men to know exactly why Muslim women wear burqas, or whether it is, in fact, their "choice" in every situation.
I would suggest that some Muslim women may wear burqas by choice, for personal reasons.
And some are coerced into wearing them, and are living in circumstances which dictate they must wear them, and do not have the option of discarding them whether or not they want to.
Be that as it may, outlawing burqas is not the answer; such a law would be more or less impossible to implement anyway (I mean, what's to stop them from wearing a damn tablecloth over their heads, or a halloween mask, or a KKK hood, for that matter? The effect is the same, but hey, technically it's not a "burqa"... and therefore not prohibited), and besides that would violate the rights of women who actually do, as Locke suggested, wear these burqas by choice. And I'm sure such women exist.
But not all women who wear burqas wear them by choice.
And I'm actually a lot more concerned about that than I am about whether or why other Muslim women do choose to wear them.
Legislating against burqas is just, in effect, slapping a bandaid over a malignant tumor, however; what actually needs to be addressed and perhaps reformed is the oppressive and patriarchal culture of which burqas are just a symptom.
The way to address it, IMO, is through education, not legislation.
And we should not expect results for generations.
There are no quick fixes to patriarchy, although the women's liberation movement of the 60s fooled us into thinking there were.
Reform takes time, and cannot be rushed.

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

pharaoh wrote: Well even if you are christian we can always see what the bible says about women how about that?

what Christianity says about women has nothing to do with what Islam says about women. you sound like you're giving justification for Islam to mistreat women here and there because the Bible doesn't always show equality to women, either. but maybe that's not what you're trying to do at all, who knows :-D

Genevieve wrote: I see a lot of generalities being made on both sides, by people who could not possibly know enough about all Muslim women or all Muslim men to know exactly why Muslim women wear burqas, or whether it is, in fact, their "choice" in every situation.
I would suggest that some Muslim women may wear burqas by choice, for personal reasons.
And some are coerced into wearing them, and are living in circumstances which dictate they must wear them, and do not have the option of discarding them whether or not they want to.
Be that as it may, outlawing burqas is not the answer; such a law would be more or less impossible to implement anyway (I mean, what's to stop them from wearing a damn tablecloth over their heads, or a halloween mask, or a KKK hood, for that matter? The effect is the same, but hey, technically it's not a "burqa"... and therefore not prohibited), and besides that would violate the rights of women who actually do, as Locke suggested, wear these burqas by choice. And I'm sure such women exist.
But not all women who wear burqas wear them by choice.
And I'm actually a lot more concerned about that than I am about whether or why other Muslim women do choose to wear them.
Legislating against burqas is just, in effect, slapping a bandaid over a malignant tumor, however; what actually needs to be addressed and perhaps reformed is the oppressive and patriarchal culture of which burqas are just a symptom.
The way to address it, IMO, is through education, not legislation.
And we should not expect results for generations.
There are no quick fixes to patriarchy, although the women's liberation movement of the 60s fooled us into thinking there were.
Reform takes time, and cannot be rushed.

it'd take a veryyyyyyyyyyyyy long time to make the Middle East not so patriarchal.

pharaoh · Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:14 am Post subject:

Quote: what Christianity says about women has nothing to do with what Islam says about women. you sound like you're giving justification for Islam to mistreat women here and there because the Bible doesn't always show equality to women, either. but maybe that's not what you're trying to do at all, who knows

You should know by now that I am 100% against the mistreatment of women.
And you should know that Islam is also 100% against the mistreatment of women.
If you think that the bible doesnt always show equality to women then I believe you started to realize that there is something wrong in it.
I believe that Islam gave more rights and respect to women than any other religion out there.
If you dont agree then please lets continue our debate in the women and Islam thread.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

pharaoh wrote: You should know by now that I am 100% against the mistreatment of women.
And you should know that Islam is also 100% against the mistreatment of women.
If you think that the bible doesnt always show equality to women then I believe you started to realize that there is something wrong in it.
I believe that Islam gave more rights and respect to women than any other religion out there.
If you dont agree then please lets continue our debate in the women and Islam thread.

Islam was born in the context of a backwards society in Saudi Arabia that buried their daughters alive because women were seen in a very negative light, so clearly its treatment of women are only good for that kind of society. I seriously think Islam is in need of reformation.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Lord Hargreaves wrote: I'm saying the burqa is a way of expressing the husbands "ownership" of his wife. The burqa isn't to stop all men treating her as a sex object, it is to deny the women being a sexual object to everyone other than her husband. Its a way the husband can establish his wife as his slave, by removing any sexuality from her, as a way of removing threat from other "competitors". In the same way slave owners would ban sexual relations between slaves and free people because it endangered the hieracy, so do husbands force their wives to wear the burqa.

Lord Hargreaves, there is no removing "competitors", etc. Wearing burqa is just a method of protecting their marriage and protecting their virginity [in case they are still virgins] by preventing the sexual misconduct from occuring.

PS: That is what the conservatives advocate, so maybe they should start selling Western style burqas!!! :lol:

pharaoh · Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:47 pm Post subject:

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: pharaoh wrote: You should know by now that I am 100% against the mistreatment of women.
And you should know that Islam is also 100% against the mistreatment of women.
If you think that the bible doesnt always show equality to women then I believe you started to realize that there is something wrong in it.
I believe that Islam gave more rights and respect to women than any other religion out there.
If you dont agree then please lets continue our debate in the women and Islam thread.

Islam was born in the context of a backwards society in Saudi Arabia that buried their daughters alive because women were seen in a very negative light, so clearly its treatment of women are only good for that kind of society. I seriously think Islam is in need of reformation.

"Only good for that kind of society"??
Your words doesnt make sense.Islam came to alot of societies back in the 8th century.From south of France in the west to the west of India in the east.All those civilizations and nations choose Islam willingly because they were convinced by it.The majority of christians in Egypt and Palestine and Syria,they all choose Islam because they knew beyond a doubt that it was better than anything else.
Today Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.More and more people understand the true nature of Islam.Its not invented by a man,when you take that concept out of your mind and read more Islam you may discover for yourself what Islam truly is.
Islam doesnt need a reformation and I defy you to prove to me that the bible gave more rights to women than the Koran...go ahead...do your best.(hope you do it in the women and Islam thread and not here)

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

pharaoh wrote: Your words doesnt make sense.Islam came to alot of societies back in the 8th century.From south of France in the west to the west of India in the east.All those civilizations and nations choose Islam willingly because they were convinced by it.The majority of christians in Egypt and Palestine and Syria,they all choose Islam because they knew beyond a doubt that it was better than anything else.
Today Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.More and more people understand the true nature of Islam.Its not invented by a man,when you take that concept out of your mind and read more Islam you may discover for yourself what Islam truly is. Islam doesnt need a reformation and I defy you to prove to me that the bible gave more rights to women than the Koran...go ahead...do your best.(hope you do it in the women and Islam thread and not here)

I suggest you go and live in the countries that enforce Islamic rules, so that you can taste how the Quranic rules are enforced. They are some of the most strict and conservative societies that don't allow any freedom to their people. In these societies, women rights are not respected and punishments are barbaric beyond belief. This clearly indicates when Islam enters into the political realm, it will become a vehicle of oppression. That's why Islam needs to redifine itself as a religion of individuals.

pharaoh · Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject:

Quote: I suggest you go and live in the countries that enforce Islamic rules, so that you can taste how the Quranic rules are enforced. They are some of the most strict and conservative societies that don't allow any freedom to their people.

You confuce between the barbaric laws that these countries enforce and the true laws of Islam.
Take Saudi Arabia for example,they dont allow women to vote or to drive.Islam is completely against these kind of laws yet unfortuantely they are practiced in Saudi Arabia.
Quranic rules are one thing and Barbaric and backward rules are another.
If people (like you) confuce between the 2 of them then they wont ever understand what Islam is truly about.Read more about Islam.You really need to.

Quote: This clearly indicates when Islam enters into the political realm, it will become a vehicle of oppression. That's why Islam needs to redifine itself as a religion of individuals.

The Koran is like God's constitutian to mankind.If applied correctly there mankind will know great prosperity and hapiness.If applied falsly then ofcourse things will go wrong.
There were times in history (that is 100% true) when poverty was completely inexistant.The government took the Zaka (money that muslims give to the poor) and couldnt find any poor man/women to give him/her the money!
This is a true fact and happened atleast during the rule of the first caliphs and a ruler called Omar ibn el aziz.Why dont you check about him.See for yourself if I was lying to you or something.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

pharaoh wrote: You confuce between the barbaric laws that these countries enforce and the true laws of Islam.
Take Saudi Arabia for example,they dont allow women to vote or to drive.Islam is completely against these kind of laws yet unfortuantely they are practiced in Saudi Arabia.
Quranic rules are one thing and Barbaric and backward rules are another.
If people (like you) confuce between the 2 of them then they wont ever understand what Islam is truly about.Read more about Islam.You really need to.

No, absolutely not. I have lived in a Islamic country before and I fully know what it's like to have Islam shoved down your throat. I think you are the one who needs to read Quran and see the barbaric punishments for yourself:

24:2 "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment."

Come on, get real. Flogging for premarital sex? :shock:

16:106 "106. Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty."

It's no ones business whether I believe in God or not.

5:38 "Men or women who steal must have their hands cut off as a reward for their deeds. This will be an example for others."

Oh dear! Cutting of people's hands for stealing! Great! :shock:

5:34 "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;"

That is so vague that it could be used to kill and maim almost anyone who is deemed as being against Allah.

8:12-13 "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. "

Cutting people's hands and necks and beheading them for challenging God?

And there are many more examples.

pharaoh wrote: The Koran is like God's constitutian to mankind.If applied correctly there mankind will know great prosperity and hapiness.If applied falsly then ofcourse things will go wrong.

I thank Allah for sending us his constitution, but I respectfully ask Allah and his followers to mind their own business and not try to force everyone to live by these rules. If Allah is serious, he'll punish those who need to be punished himself in the afterlife. He doesn't need his followers to cut and maim people in this world.

So with all due respect to Allah, he should mind his own business and wait for the judgement day when he will have his chance to cut and maim people.

pharaoh wrote: There were times in history (that is 100% true) when poverty was completely inexistant.The government took the Zaka (money that muslims give to the poor) and couldnt find any poor man/women to give him/her the money!
This is a true fact and happened atleast during the rule of the first caliphs and a ruler called Omar ibn el aziz.Why dont you check about him.See for yourself if I was lying to you or something.

That's lovely, but those times are over and all the attempts by the so called Islamic countries to go back to those times have failed miserably.

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

pharaoh wrote: Quote: what Christianity says about women has nothing to do with what Islam says about women. you sound like you're giving justification for Islam to mistreat women here and there because the Bible doesn't always show equality to women, either. but maybe that's not what you're trying to do at all, who knows

You should know by now that I am 100% against the mistreatment of women.
And you should know that Islam is also 100% against the mistreatment of women.
If you think that the bible doesnt always show equality to women then I believe you started to realize that there is something wrong in it.
I believe that Islam gave more rights and respect to women than any other religion out there.
If you dont agree then please lets continue our debate in the women and Islam thread.

:lol: I will get back to you in that thread sooner or later... I'm just really busy :(

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Since the Bible came into this, I just would like to point out that I am not a Christian and I believe the Christian should stop pushing their moral values onto other people.