Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I think there are even a few homosexual connotations and allusions to incest in some of his works, so I think we can get certain religious Christian groups on board too.


Perhaps, I wasn't looking for that when I read his crap, but whatever the reason, the sooner that Christians get on board the better.


I've never read the "Merchant of Venice" but I will now, I'm a little ambivalent about Shakespeare greatness, but I wasn't aware that he was an anti-semite. And incest and homosexuality is no bueno. I've only read a few of his works so I hadn't noticed anything like that.

Anti-semitism in certain non-bible believing "Christian" sects seems to have been rampant for a long time, especially in Europe.

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: The best approach to make the ideas of Mein Kampf and Merchant of Venice to go away is to teach them in school to our kids?
You're putting Mein Kampf together in the boat along w/ Merchant of Venice?! :shock:

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Wow.... I'm amazed I didn't catch this thread earlier..

k, it's like this. In the first place, Shakespeare is not either pro- or anti-Jew. Like Plato (and other great philosophers of the ages), Shakespeare never reveals what his true sentiments are. His works merely hold up a mirror to society, so that we can see ourselves therein, and be given an opportunity to contemplate our condition, how we got here, and where we should be going. Shakespeare makes anti-Semiticism an issue in his play, but it's for the purpose of bringing up the issue for discussion in civil society (as is being done here), not b/c Shakespeare himself is necessarily anti-Semitic (for which there is no compelling evidence.. esp given the themes of Kaballah that can be found in many of his other works, which I'm not even going to touch on further here)..

Secondly, you must understand Merchant of Venice for what it is: a work of symoblic allegory. It's difficult to do this work justice in one brief Internet posting, but basically it's something like this .. Shylock (who symbolizes all dogmatic creeds in general) believes that God's "Law" is the written Torah.. that the law of "justice" which is written black upon white in ink on the pages of that book are the sum and total of the "Law".. The Christians, on the other hand, esp Portia as she adjudicates Shylock's trial, point out that God's Law is much, much simpler: You must give to receieve, or ... in the words of St. Paul in Galatians 6:7: You shall reap whatsoever you sow.

This *is* God's Law. It's simple and it is eternal, and it is unchangeable.. There is no force or power in Heaven or on Earth that can sway or alter this Law. Whatsoever you sow, that is what you shall reap. If you give love, you will receive more love. If you give hate, you will recieve more hate. This is the Law of God.. plainly, simply and justly... and, more especially, in the context of Merchant of Venice, if you give mercy, you shall receive mercy (or, conversely, if you give justice, you shall receive more justice than you ever desired).

This Law of God is symoblized in the character of the Duke of Venice. It's stated repeatedly in the play (more esp during Shylock's Trial) that no force or power in all of Venice will be able to change or alter a decree of the Duke. This is meant to symbolize that - as I wrote above - the Law of God is unchangeable, unmovable and eternal.. The issue that arises during the play, is that different characters (more especially Shylock) have conflicting opinions as to what this Law actually is. Shylock imagines the Law to be "dogmatic" justice, and -- true to the Law (as you sow, so shall you reap) -- Shylock reaps more dogmatic justice than he could possibly care for. On the other hand, the characters who show mercy do -- in the end -- reap mercy (although not before perhaps being persecuted for their mercy).

The bit about "flesh-hunting" Jew is a ploy on the Blood of Christ. To the Jews, kosher meat is ordinarly drained empty of all blood before the flesh is taken. To the Christians, it is the Merciful Blood of Christ that redeems and through which man is saved.. and it's this (legal) slip-up (i.e., forgetting to drain the body of its blood first) that is where Skylock trips and gets caught.... it's a very, very clever and powerful literary allusion, imho..

Each character in the play receives precisely what he has sowed.. that's the whole point of the play.. it's an exposition of God's Law. Shylock was repeated (throughout the entire play) admonished to show mercy, but ... he never did. Instead, he only showed a thirst of justice, and consequently he received (as per God's Law) more justice than he could ever handle..

I could go on and on, but to make a long story short, I believe Merchant of Venice to be one of the most brilliant expositions of the contrast between Gevurah (Justice) and Chesed (Mercy) that has ever been put to paper... It is the conflict between these two "emanations" of God that form the basis of the entire play.

The 2004 edition of the film w/ Al Pacino as Shylock, is quite good (imho):

http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/merchantofvenice/flash.html

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: I've never read the "Merchant of Venice" but I will now, I'm a little ambivalent about Shakespeare greatness, but I wasn't aware that he was an anti-semite. And incest and homosexuality is no bueno. I've only read a few of his works so I hadn't noticed anything like that.
Shakespeare wasn't anti-Semitic, see the previous post...

That's a lie, invented by knaves and believed by fools.. :wink:

[Duchifas]

psholtz, you are nuts. :lol: in a good way.

Quote: The bit about "flesh-hunting" Jew is a ploy on the Blood of Christ. To the Jews, kosher meat is ordinarly drained empty of all blood before the flesh is taken. To the Christians, it is the Merciful Blood of Christ that redeems and through which man is saved.. and it's this (legal) slip-up (i.e., forgetting to drain the body of its blood first) that is where Skylock trips and gets caught.... it's a very, very clever and powerful literary allusion, imho..

and imho, it's something else.

[John]

Quote: and imho, it's something else.


Well,

Don't leave us hanging.

[sladeh]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: I've never read the "Merchant of Venice" but I will now, I'm a little ambivalent about Shakespeare greatness, but I wasn't aware that he was an anti-semite. And incest and homosexuality is no bueno. I've only read a few of his works so I hadn't noticed anything like that.
Shakespeare wasn't anti-Semitic, see the previous post...

That's a lie, invented by knaves and believed by fools.. :wink:

I had never heard any analysis of the play that mentioned anti-semitism, so I have no idea who "invented" that Shakespeare was an anti-semite. All I know is that his play makes me think he is.

I agree with some of your observations about the moral lessons, but that same story of mercy could have been told without using racism. It wasn't alltogether meant to be a commentary on usury and reaping and sowing of mercy and justice. Shylock is meant to portray a typical Jew: a merchant, a loan shark, a trickster who gets caught in his own trap.

I just thought I would check with some Jewish fellows here, and get their take. Lo and behold, they think the play was racist.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: and imho, it's something else.


Well,

Don't leave us hanging.

meaning something that I already described in my above posts.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: I've never read the "Merchant of Venice" but I will now, I'm a little ambivalent about Shakespeare greatness, but I wasn't aware that he was an anti-semite. And incest and homosexuality is no bueno. I've only read a few of his works so I hadn't noticed anything like that.
Shakespeare wasn't anti-Semitic, see the previous post...

That's a lie, invented by knaves and believed by fools.. :wink: Everyone was anti-Semitic back there including Shakespeare...

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Duchifas wrote: Krysis wrote: Very enlightening. Thank you Duchifas.

Looking at your definition there cannot be a Jewish Atheist.

Pretty much so. I mean there are certainly Jews who are atheists or secular, and the numbers are high today, if you look at Jews through the lens of history, i.e., not just the last 100 years, but the entire history of the Jewish people, clearly the concept of Jewish atheism is an outlier.

Quote: But what if their mother was jewish and as you say you cannot leave the faith. According to what you say, your jewish but what if they convert to some other religion? What are they then?

Misguided Jews. That's just the way it is.

There is an old joke, old meaning from the times when there were forced conversions of Jews into Christianity, but it highlights the point.

There is one Jew living in town. And it's a Jewish custom to eat fish on friday night, for sabbath. The town is quite intent on converting him, so one day a crowd drags him into Church, the priest sprinkles some holy water on him three times, and says three times -- you are no longer a Jew, you are no longer a Jew, you are no longer a Jew.

So next Friday night people pass through the Jew's window, and see him eating fish again - basically doing the Jewish thing. So the priest storms in, and screams why the hell are you eating fish, I converted you, you are not a Jew anymore. So he replies -- this is not a fish, this is pork. Priest looks at the fish, which is clearly fish and gets even more annoyed. So the Jew says, look, I went the market, bought some fish, brought it home, took some water, sprinkled it three times and said -- you are not a fish, you are not a fish, you are not a fish....

So a Jew "converting" to another faith has about the same result.

Quote: Nice post, Duchifas (though I obviously disagree).

Disagree? Really? :shock: :wink:

Quote: Anyway, I noticed that while religious Jews rarely try to convince others to convert (or actually try to convince them not to) - they do try to convert when it comes to Jews by birth who have forsaken religion - like me.

Well it's not conversion (no chopping involved), you are already a Jew. If we work under above definition, religious Jews are just trying to get you back to "normal." ;)

Quote: However, it seems to me that the attitude towards actual converts is pretty hostile.

I don't think so, nor should it be that way. Torah commands to treat converts fairly. Of course, there are people in every religion who can twist and pervert anything. They are the exception, not the rule. Of course, the exception is often more vocal than the rule, which is unfortunate. A Christian eat meat on a Friday?Is that supposed to be funny?

[stix]

Krysis wrote: I recently heard someone say that they were a "Jewish Atheist". Erm what?

What exactly is being jewish? Is it just a religion or is it also an ethnic background? I looked on the internet and some sites say that your jewish all your life but others say you can leave it.

Could anyone explain to me what being jewish exactly means?
i refer to myself with the same label. atheism is simply the belief that there is no god but the jewish culture still exists.
it seems that there are different types of jews, my mom once called me a food jew, meaning that i won't really observe holidays, i'll just cook and eat all the great foods we make :-D

[Thay dunt need no RITES!]

I hates jews

[Israel]

Thay dunt need no RITES! wrote: I hates jews
Leh lehizdayen

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Israel wrote: Thay dunt need no RITES! wrote: I hates jews
Leh lehizdayen English please...

[Israel]

Achilles The Myrmidon wrote: Israel wrote: Thay dunt need no RITES! wrote: I hates jews
Leh lehizdayen English please...
Don't worry about it.