Political Crossfire Forums

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13373 Location: Berkeley

i've always said that any quotation from any sacred text must be put in context, so this following passage, while a refutation of the common perception of islam as a religion of violence (many passages out of context do, in fact, make it seem as such), could still be out-of-context and have a different meaning that what it seems here. just thought i'd put it out for everyone and wondered if they had any opinions/information about it.

Quote: [Quran 5:32] " we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people."

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

good point! :clap:

To add to that, on suicide, the Quran says:

[2:195] You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

[ 4:29] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

This clearly forbids suicide terrorism.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

And some messages of peace:

(8:61) "If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."

(7:199) "You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant. "

(16:90)" GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed. "

(49:13)"O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant."

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

I'd like to mention something... no, this is not a bad thing.

The Koran does not translate one-to-one from its Arabic context to the English language. Even the verses in Arabic are not understood directly; they are interpreted word by word. As a result, you can have several interpretations from one verse; the most correct ones can be taken from those who have the proper education and the experience in such a field. Also, more often that not, you will find that many verses of the Koran are linked to one another.

For example, you interpreted that these verses.

[2:195] You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

[ 4:29] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

mean that suicide "terrorism" is not allowed in Islam. You are right when it comes to blowing up a bus of schoolchildren; it isn't. But if you mean that blowing yourselves up in front of enemy soldiers who are oppressing you and fighting against you, that is not necessarily correct. For example, there's this verse (can't remember where it is exactly in the Koran):

"Do not kill yourselves except when it's for a righteous cause..."

and that cause was meant to be defense more than anything else. You see, it does conflict when you take the literal meaning of the verse without taking the verses that call for certain exceptions or additions, as well as the interpretations made by several sheiks. You might be able to find some here: http://www.islam.com/ and many other related websites. Given that you take the correct interpretations for the literal meaning of Koranic text into account, you can definitely confide in the Koran 100%, as I and many other Muslims have.

However, I really appreciate your approach concerning the literal messages of violence and peace in the Koran.

Cheers =)

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Even the verses in Arabic are not understood directly; they are interpreted word by word.

This, it is true, is the biggest problem with Islam. Anyone who can speak Arabic should be able read and understand it themselves, rather than having some theocrat do it for them.
Quote:
[ 4:29] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

This quote is awesome......it only leads me ask why aren't all good Muslims like this guy? http://www.minaret.org/

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

This quote is awesome......it only leads me ask why aren't all good Muslims like this guy?

I doubted you for a while there, Reason. I thought you didn't live up to your name. But who is THIS guy, just out of curiosity? The website doesn't state anything.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: I doubted you for a while there, Reason. I thought you didn't live up to your name. But who is THIS guy, just out of curiosity? The website doesn't state anything.

Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad
http://www.minaret.org/Staff.htm

Here is an interview with him:
http://www.reason.com/interviews/minaret.shtml

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

Thank you. :)

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

Whoa, hold it.

When you spoke of Arabic theocrats, do u mean someone who interprets the Koran? If that is what u mean, then yes, they do the interpreting for us as well. They are people who have been educated on every aspect of Islamic doctrine.

FYI, we're not stupid. We can differentiate between the best of "theocrats" and the most radical of them.

Now I'm starting to doubt you again. :?

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: They are people who have been educated on every aspect of Islamic doctrine.

Do you need to be told how to understand a book, personally I prefer to read and interpret the source material myself.

Quote: do u mean someone who interprets the Koran?

I really just meant the loonies, like some of the more prominent imams of Saudi Arabia.
Quote:
FYI, we're not stupid. We can differentiate between the best of "theocrats" and the most radical of them.

You can...many people don't seem to want to.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6788 Location: Ohio

but-but-

ISLAM IS TEH EVAL TERR0R1ST RELIGIN OMFG

But yeah, I have yet to see a sound arguement out of these "Islam is Evil" people

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject:

Quote: Do you need to be told how to understand a book, personally I prefer to read and interpret the source material myself.

Thats why you dont understand Islam and dont accept the information that we are giving to you. You cant interpret a religion your own way or then it would be your own religion.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Thats why you dont understand Islam and dont accept the information that we are giving to you. You cant interpret a religion your own way or then it would be your own religion.

The Qu'ran is suppsoed to be god's word. Surely human beings don't need some 'professional' to interpret the rod of god, surely god shouldn't be interpreted but simply read.

It's one thing having faith in an omnipotent being, but quite another to follow every word of a self-appointed human 'expert'. You are a rational being, you believe god created you, so being rational is a gift from god....would you reject it?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

Reason, pharaoh was right. You shouldn't be taken seriously. No offence.

The Koran is God's word. And the Koran is UNIQUE. Unique in WHAT, you might ask?

It's unique in that the Koran, like the Talmud, Torah and Bible, is NOT just a simple read. You have to understand how to read and interpret the Koran. You can't draw your interpretations from one verse. Haven't you been listening to what I was saying the whole time? Have you been looking at my posts?

The Koran is also unique in that you can't take the literal meaning of the verse and interpret it right away. You have to understand the mechanics of the Koran and the linkages between the verses. It's not that simple. I actually tried to interpret one of the last chapters of the Koran to my Islamic tutor, and I definitely got the whole thing wrong. With a little bit of practice, I actually started to interpret the Koran by looking at it the same way my instructor and MANY PROMINENT IMAMS do. I've even been told by this guy in one of the forums that the Talmud isn't something I should study on my own.

And who are you calling loonies? Those "extremist imams"? Be SPECIFIC.
Many imams in Saudi Arabia are actually quite open-minded about matters of the Koran. And many of them have stable education backgrounds in Koranic study.

You can...many people don't seem to want to.

That's stubbornness to my ears. I've heard about many misinterpretations of the Bible and Torah by some radical priests and rabbis. I stick to those priests and rabbis who are more sane and able to interpret the Testaments in clearer, more logical ways.

It's one thing having faith in an omnipotent being, but quite another to follow every word of a self-appointed human 'expert'. You are a rational being, you believe god created you, so being rational is a gift from god....would you reject it?

Self-appointed? Where do you get such ideas? Yes, we are rational. And so are many of the imams who interpret the Koran. You simply don't see them as such because you THINK that they're not. We are rational enough to see the Truth behind what they say. They don't do the thinking for us; they just explain the verses to us. And no, we don't reject any of God's gifts... even the most basic ones, such as sight, are something we praise Him for everyday.

Thats why you dont understand Islam and dont accept the information that we are giving to you. You cant interpret a religion your own way or then it would be your own religion.

Dead on. Reason, you don't know Islam as much as we do. I don't know Judaism as much as the Jews do. So, stop wasting our time. If you're interested in the Koran, I suggest visiting a mosque or seeing a MUSLIM Islamic Professor/Imam or whatsoever; better yet, why don't you convert to Islam and then you'll see how what we've been trying to tell you in several threads already makes sense.

Stop wasting my time. I already wrote enough for you to understand this.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Reason, pharaoh was right. You shouldn't be taken seriously. No offence.

Why? Because I refuse to accept that Islam is somehow above criticism. Allah is supposed to be all powerful, so I reckon he can take a little criticism, and certainly doens't need humans to defend him....Pharaoh in another post said that 'Allah's needs nothing from you' - not even defence from criticism.
I'm going to start a new thread on why Islam, properly interepreted, as by me an unbeliever, expressly forbids all forms of coercion.
Quote:
That's stubbornness to my ears. I've heard about many misinterpretations of the Bible and Torah by some radical priests and rabbis. I stick to those priests and rabbis who are more sane and able to interpret the Testaments in clearer, more logical ways.

It's not quite as mainstream in those religions as it is in Islam, though, is it?

Quote: Self-appointed?

Well the imams ain't appointed by allah are they?
Quote:
Yes, we are rational. And so are many of the imams who interpret the Koran. You simply don't see them as such because you THINK that they're not. We are rational enough to see the Truth behind what they say. They don't do the thinking for us; they just explain the verses to us.

If you are rational then you don't need the imams, they are just an uneeded group of middle-men between you and god.
Quote:
And no, we don't reject any of God's gifts... even the most basic ones, such as sight, are something we praise Him for everyday.

Since no countries, never mind majority Muslim ones, allow proper freedom. I'd say that Muslims do reject god's gifts. Liberty being one of them. If the man gives you free-will, then having a law banning stuff is banning free will. This is taking away one of god's gifts from another person.
Quote:
Dead on. Reason, you don't know Islam as much as we do. I don't know Judaism as much as the Jews do. So, stop wasting our time.

So you mean I can't criticise Islam because I'm not Muslim? You're not communist so you can't criticise communism, you're not fascist either, or American......

Quote: If you're interested in the Koran, I suggest visiting a mosque or seeing a MUSLIM Islamic Professor/Imam or whatsoever

Or I could use my brain, my divine gift of free thought, to read and think about it myself....Rather than prostrating myself to some old guy in a beard, and accepting all his words, no matter how irrational, as the truth.

Quote: better yet, why don't you convert to Islam and then you'll see how what we've been trying to tell you in several threads already makes sense.

My friend, that is truly a touching offer, however I don't need to subjugate myself to a higher being in order to have a purpose in life.

pharaoh · Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject:

Reason wrote: Quote: Reason, pharaoh was right. You shouldn't be taken seriously. No offence.

Why? Because I refuse to accept that Islam is somehow above criticism. Allah is supposed to be all powerful, so I reckon he can take a little criticism, and certainly doens't need humans to defend him....Pharaoh in another post said that 'Allah's needs nothing from you' - not even defence from criticism.
I'm going to start a new thread on why Islam, properly interepreted, as by me an unbeliever, expressly forbids all forms of coercion.
Quote:
That's stubbornness to my ears. I've heard about many misinterpretations of the Bible and Torah by some radical priests and rabbis. I stick to those priests and rabbis who are more sane and able to interpret the Testaments in clearer, more logical ways.

It's not quite as mainstream in those religions as it is in Islam, though, is it?

Quote: Self-appointed?

Well the imams ain't appointed by allah are they?
Quote:
Yes, we are rational. And so are many of the imams who interpret the Koran. You simply don't see them as such because you THINK that they're not. We are rational enough to see the Truth behind what they say. They don't do the thinking for us; they just explain the verses to us.

If you are rational then you don't need the imams, they are just an uneeded group of middle-men between you and god.
Quote:
And no, we don't reject any of God's gifts... even the most basic ones, such as sight, are something we praise Him for everyday.

Since no countries, never mind majority Muslim ones, allow proper freedom. I'd say that Muslims do reject god's gifts. Liberty being one of them. If the man gives you free-will, then having a law banning stuff is banning free will. This is taking away one of god's gifts from another person.
Quote:
Dead on. Reason, you don't know Islam as much as we do. I don't know Judaism as much as the Jews do. So, stop wasting our time.

So you mean I can't criticise Islam because I'm not Muslim? You're not communist so you can't criticise communism, you're not fascist either, or American......

Quote: If you're interested in the Koran, I suggest visiting a mosque or seeing a MUSLIM Islamic Professor/Imam or whatsoever

Or I could use my brain, my divine gift of free thought, to read and think about it myself....Rather than prostrating myself to some old guy in a beard, and accepting all his words, no matter how irrational, as the truth.

Quote: better yet, why don't you convert to Islam and then you'll see how what we've been trying to tell you in several threads already makes sense.

My friend, that is truly a touching offer, however I don't need to subjugate myself to a higher being in order to have a purpose in life.

Oh man your living in your own small world...heeelloooooo :lol:

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Oh man your living in your own small world...heeelloooooo Laughing

You do no service to yourself nor your religion through the inane immaturity of your response

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

First of all, the mainstream interpreters of the Koran are those who interpret it CORRECTLY. Those who are are outspoken most of the time are RADICALS. They make names for themselves because of the controversy they rouse. But the mainstream interpreters that WE know of (yet not YOU) are those who we listen to all the time. The ones you listen to are the ones we usually ignore.

You don't the language so that you can interpret it. The English translations have done little to produce fruit, if you wanna call it that. The Arabic language translations have done more because of the exact

Since no countries, never mind majority Muslim ones, allow proper freedom. I'd say that Muslims do reject god's gifts. Liberty being one of them. If the man gives you free-will, then having a law banning stuff is banning free will. This is taking away one of god's gifts from another person.

You have no idea. Free will is something we were given and we should act upon it. So what you are trying to say is that God gave us free will so that we can DENY His existence? Thank you. You said it clearly.

Rather than prostrating myself to some old guy in a beard, and accepting all his words, no matter how irrational, as the truth.

Now this is offensive. We prostrate to God and communicate with Him directly. We don't pray to Saints or clerics to ask God to forgive our sins or watever. We carry out all the prayers OURSELVES. We just let the imams guide us. THAT is OUR free will. Seriously, you and your little world. :lol:

So you mean I can't criticise Islam because I'm not Muslim? You're not communist so you can't criticise communism, you're not fascist either, or American......

Criticise Islam all you want. I don't care. Plus, you don't have a basis. What we interpret out of the Koran is different than what you make out of it. You seriously don't believe the difference between belief and followers. I stated it tens of times ALREADY!!!

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Criticise Islam all you want. I don't care

I'm criticisng it anymore, I'm saying how great it is.

Quote: Now this is offensive. We prostrate to God and communicate with Him directly. We don't pray to Saints or clerics to ask God to forgive our sins or watever. We carry out all the prayers OURSELVES. We just let the imams guide us. THAT is OUR free will. Seriously, you and your little world

Pharaoh said earlier that you need an imam to intepret things for you, your response says guide. That means you two disagree, and I and you agree.

Quote: You have no idea. Free will is something we were given and we should act upon it. So what you are trying to say is that God gave us free will so that we can DENY His existence? Thank you. You said it clearly.

If someone bans crack cocaine, pornography, homosexuality or other sins that only involve consent, then they are reducing free will and therefore acting against allah.

l

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

A guide is someone who interprets things for you. That's why we need imams in our society, just like Christian priests and Jewish rabbis. I think we are all on the same ground, but you're looking at it differently.

If someone bans crack cocaine, pornography, homosexuality or other sins that only involve consent, then they are reducing free will and therefore acting against allah.

:lol: You crack me up, Reason. Not in Islam do these sins involve consent AT ALL; they are banned. Allah is not all about giving you free will. Think of it: God gave us pigs in the first place, whose meat is prohibited. We've been given the free will to choose what's right and what's wrong.

Stop trolling, and read about Islam first in depth before coming to teach us our own religion. 8:)