Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

Also remember it was only folks who were bitten by the fiery serpents for speaking against YHWH and failed to look toward Nehushtan who died.

Not everyone.

[Aqualung]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Perhaps the theif was wrongly convicted.

This thief said this:

Quote: "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."

Luke 23:40

Even he did not think he was wrongly convicted.
Ok, then what about the rest of it?

Quote: And if the act baptism itself remits sin, yet you continue to sin afterward, why do folks not get re-baptized on a regular basis?
That would be unpracticle. That's why every week you take sacrament to renew your baptismal covenants.

Quote: If I hadn't read it and saw the error in it we would not be having this conversation.
Well, too bad you're not kind enough to point out the error.

Quote: What do you supposed happened to the people who later began to look at the serpent as an idol that had salvatory power in itself and burned incense to it to propitiate their sin?
And what do you think will happen to the people who simply look at baptism as the one and only thing necessary for salvation? Probably... (and here is the crazy part)... Probably... The same thing.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Well, too bad you're not kind enough to point out the error.

I have pointed it out. You refuse to consider what I said.

[John]

CrossEyedMary wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: You should consider whether it is the physical state that changes the spiritual or if it is the spiritual state that changes the physical.

Because dipping yourself in water doesn't actually literally change your soul.

It's symbolic.

And Y'shua straight up told someone that hadn't been baptised that they would be in Paradise so obviously it is not the process of dipping someone in water that causes the remission of sins.
You should consider reading the posts I wrote before that and actually replying to that.

If dipping myself in water does no good, why did Christ and his apostles do all the stuff I wrote in my previous posts? You should read them. It might actually add something to the debate if you either backed up what you're saying with scripture, or debunked what I said earlier.

Again, about the theif on the cross. Did you read my post about it? Obviously not. Because simply saying "you're wrong" without reasons, when I gave my reasons for why I thought I was right doesn't really add much to a debate, either.

Baptism is an act that outwardly portrays an inward Faith. It isn't the act of Baptism that saves your soul; its the substance of what baptism represents (Jesus) that saves (See Colossians 2). The saved person has a changed heart....he knows that Jesus told us to be baptised and wants to obey Jesus, he wants to submit to God's will. By being baptised the person is publicly procliaming that they are putting thier Faith in Jesus Christ for thier Salvation, and that's the key.....not baptisim in it's self.....in and of itself it's nothing more than a bath. It's what going on in the inside of the person that really matters when it comes to the act of ritual baptism.

Some people even think that baptism has to be done in a particular way, or only counts if performed by certain people,...if even heard things as silly as the claim that if only the words "in Jesus name" weren't used...then it didn't count and the person isn't really saved. That's hogwash....that's putting the power of Salvation in the hands of men and not where it really comes from. God. And His ability to sovereignly change a man's heart.
(See 1 Corinthians 1 as a reference...)

[Saf]

Baptism, and the American obsession with it, is nothing but formalism (see: pharisees). People here believe that if you go to church, are baptised and don't sodomise anyone, you can be a violent, drunken, racist, hateful person and get into heaven. Do you think God is more concerned with whether you follow the moral example lead by Christ, or whether you have been dipped into some water in a ceremony?

[cap'n queasy]

Well, if you happen to notice it is the same people who you generally characterize as fundamentalists and rail against who are arguing against the idea of religious formalism. The idea that going to church saves you, or baptism saves you. Or that any action on your part imparts salvation, for that matter.

What do you have to say about that?


And I don't know anyone who thinks a violent, drunken, racist person is going to go to heaven if they simply step into a certain building or dip themselves in water while saying a certain phrase. But I know some who think that it is possible for such a person to be changed into a new person who will. If they will only open their heart to Y'shua.

Additionally, the thinking that simply following Christ's moral example will remit sins is just as much formalism as believing the act of baptism remits your sins.

[sparsely]

cap'n queasy wrote: Well, if you happen to notice it is the same people who you generally characterize as fundamentalists and rail against who are arguing against the idea of religious formalism. The idea that going to church saves you, or baptism saves you. Or that any action on your part imparts salvation, for that matter.

What do you have to say about that?


And I don't know anyone who thinks a violent, drunken, racist person is going to go to heaven if they simply step into a certain building or dip themselves in water while saying a certain phrase. But I know some who think that it is possible for such a person to be changed into a new person who will. If they will only open their heart to Y'shua.

Additionally, the thinking that simply following Christ's moral example will remit sins is just as much formalism as believing the act of baptism remits your sins.

very well-said :clap:
Love is the first word of all the laws. Learn it, and the rest is just garnish.

[Saf]

cap'n queasy wrote: Well, if you happen to notice it is the same people who you generally characterize as fundamentalists and rail against who are arguing against the idea of religious formalism. The idea that going to church saves you, or baptism saves you. Or that any action on your part imparts salvation, for that matter.

What do you have to say about that?
Huh? That's ridiculous! Fundamentalists are the ones trying to put their kids into more and more christian education, promoting "christian music" and prayer in schools. Fundies more than ANYONE promote formalism. They really belive that obeying random laws picked and chosen which applied to the Israelites will someone determine who goes to heaven. It's just pure, simple hate, and they use the bible to justify it.

Quote: And I don't know anyone who thinks a violent, drunken, racist person is going to go to heaven if they simply step into a certain building or dip themselves in water while saying a certain phrase. But I know some who think that it is possible for such a person to be changed into a new person who will. If they will only open their heart to Y'shua.

Additionally, the thinking that simply following Christ's moral example will remit sins is just as much formalism as believing the act of baptism remits your sins.
Then you don't know many fundies. Furthermore, since you are clearly a metaphysical christian we're simply not going to see eye to eye on the issue as I am a Unitarian. There is no reason to believe that Christ was divine, except for the inane propaganda ramblings of a Platonist (John). Christ is a historical figure who taught us how to live. If you think simply feeling that you have accepted him as your saviour (i.e. eaten church propaganda hook, line and sinker) gets you "salvation," you have missed the point entirely in my book.

[toddytodd]

Was the thief on the cross next to Y'shua baptised, literally, in water? No, yet, Y'shua told him this:
Quote: "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

I think it is important to note that I don't truly know (and not sure if anyone truly does) of any proof that the thief wasn't baptized prior to his end.
But it is a good point to make in regards to rather or not baptism is necessary to get into heaven.
Personally, I don't believe it is (at least not the physical dunking in the river or stream).

[Aqualung]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Well, too bad you're not kind enough to point out the error.

I have pointed it out. You refuse to consider what I said.
One time you said, "The theif was not baptised."

Another time you pointed out my error in thinking the theif was not guilty.

That's all you have done.

[Aqualung]

John wrote: Baptism is an act that outwardly portrays an inward Faith. It isn't the act of Baptism that saves your soul; its the substance of what baptism represents (Jesus) that saves (See Colossians 2).
Then why did Christ himself need to get baptised to fulfill all righteouness? Why did he tell us that if we aren't baptised we won't be saved? I agree that it is not the act of baptism ONLY, but baptism plus a change of heart.

Quote: The saved person has a changed heart....he knows that Jesus told us to be baptised and wants to obey Jesus, he wants to submit to God's will. By being baptised the person is publicly procliaming that they are putting thier Faith in Jesus Christ for thier Salvation, and that's the key.....not baptisim in it's self.....in and of itself it's nothing more than a bath. It's what going on in the inside of the person that really matters when it comes to the act of ritual baptism.
It's nothing more than a bath if you don't believe, but it's more than simple declaration to your fellow man if you do.

[Aqualung]

cap'n queasy wrote: Well, if you happen to notice it is the same people who you generally characterize as fundamentalists and rail against who are arguing against the idea of religious formalism. The idea that going to church saves you, or baptism saves you. Or that any action on your part imparts salvation, for that matter.

What do you have to say about that?
I never said any of those things. Baptism does not "save" a person. But without baptism, there is no hope. Just like, without a belief in Christ, there is no hope. Just like, without even trying to love your neighbour, there is no hope. It's one of those things.


Quote: And I don't know anyone who thinks a violent, drunken, racist person is going to go to heaven if they simply step into a certain building or dip themselves in water while saying a certain phrase.
Neither do I.

[Aqualung]

toddytodd wrote: Was the thief on the cross next to Y'shua baptised, literally, in water? No, yet, Y'shua told him this:
Go back and read. I already dealt with this.

I'll post it again, because it's been a couple pages.

[Aqualung]

As to the theif on the cross: Where in the Bible does it say he WASN'T baptised? Many people will say, "If he is a theif, he wasn't baptised" but consider these two things. They crucified Christ out of spite, not because he did anything wrong. Perhaps the theif was wrongly convicted. Second, baptism does not automatically make it impossible for someone to sin. After all, I've sinned a ton after I got baptised, and I'm pretty sure every single person has, too.

Others will say, "He wasn't baptised, because the Bible does not specifically say he was." Consider this: The Bible says that if even a tenth part of what Jesus did was written, it would be waaay too much to read. And almost nothing of John the Baptist or others is recorded at all. There is one thing, however, that is recorded about John the Baptist. Mark 1:5 - "And there went out unto [John the Baptist] all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." How do you know the theif wasn't one of them who was baptized?

[toddytodd]

CrossEyedMary wrote: toddytodd wrote: Was the thief on the cross next to Y'shua baptised, literally, in water? No, yet, Y'shua told him this:
Go back and read. I already dealt with this.

I'll post it again, because it's been a couple pages.

I don't think I was the one that said this
:?
Maybe Cap'n...?

[superskippy]

I find it hard to accept in any faith where it be Judaism, Islam, Christianity, that a single ceremony or type of action defines whether you go to heaven or hell, I find it very hard to accept that God would spurn a man who has filled his life with good deeds and kindness to his fellow man and in doing so followed the base teachings of god, and yet be turned away from heaven because he wasnt baptised.

That just seems wrong to me. Your deeds on earth should define your place when you leave this world.

[sparsely]

superskippy wrote: I find it hard to accept in any faith where it be Judaism, Islam, Christianity, that a single ceremony or type of action defines whether you go to heaven or hell, I find it very hard to accept that God would spurn a man who has filled his life with good deeds and kindness to his fellow man and in doing so followed the base teachings of god, and yet be turned away from heaven because he wasnt baptised.

That just seems wrong to me. Your deeds on earth should define your place when you leave this world.

Precisely what Jesus was saying.

[Todd D.]

I would suggest that there is a fundamental difference between absence of baptism out of ignorance and absence of baptism out of spite. The actions of the thief suggest that his epiphany occurred on his cross, as that was where he realized precisely what was going on. At that time, it was logistically impossible to get water sprinkled across his head, even if the Romans would have allowed it. I believe the term for this is "Baptism of desire", had he the opportunity to be baptized at that moment, he surely would have taken it, and I doubt very seriously that the all-loving creator of the Universe would withold eternal paradise from somebody based on something that he was physically incapable of doing.

On the other hand, there are the people that have ample opportunity, yet choose not to be baptized. On them, I feel that the Bible very specifically lays out the requirement of Baptism in order to be justified. Paul flat out says "Baptism now saves you". Jesus didn't say "Go out and get people to accept me", He said "Go out and Baptize all nations". I think it takes some pretty significant linguistic leaps to assume that He was talking on something else.

[John]

Quote: He said "Go out and Baptize all nations". I think it takes some pretty significant linguistic leaps to assume that He was talking on something else.


It's one thing to be baptized with water...and another to be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:11
""I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire ."


One other note...is that Jesus never baptized anyone with water.

[Aqualung]

toddytodd wrote: I don't think I was the one that said this
Confused
Maybe Cap'n...?
It was in this post:

toddytodd wrote: Was the thief on the cross next to Y'shua baptised, literally, in water? No, yet, Y'shua told him this:
Quote: "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

I think it is important to note that I don't truly know (and not sure if anyone truly does) of any proof that the thief wasn't baptized prior to his end.
But it is a good point to make in regards to rather or not baptism is necessary to get into heaven.
Personally, I don't believe it is (at least not the physical dunking in the river or stream).

Which I obviously didn't read all of. :lol: Sorry about that.