Political Crossfire Forums

[F'losrix]

Here's the background:

My life partner has been close friends with a couple (heterosexual) and their immediate family for 20+ years (took family vacations with them for many years, etc.). They share several other friends in common from their college days, and the group gets together several times a year for various occasions (football parties, Christmas parties, New Years, etc.) They all know that he and I are a couple and treat us accordingly. The subject of our homosexuality mostly just doesn't even come up, as everyone has developed a certain level of comfort with having us around so there's nothing really to be said about it.

We don't go around announcing that we're gay, don't engage in public displays of affection, etc. At the same time, we don't make any effort to pretend that we're straight; the fact that we're a couple is fairly obvious to anyone who is the least bit observant.

Now the situation:

Yesterday we attended the aforementioned couple's 25th wedding anniversary with about 100 other people. We're generally a bit more reserved at such events as we don't want our presence as a gay couple to distract from the actual purpose of the event. Even so, we decided it was acceptable to join in the dancing - just the fast dancing, no touching or overtly suggestive movements. I sat out all the slow dances, though my partner did indulge a few of his female friends; a fairly typical thing at such events where people don't have to necessarily be a couple to share an innocent dance together.

Things seemed to be going fine, with no one taking particular notice of us. But toward the end of the evening (we'd been dancing on and off for probably a good 3 to 4 hours by this time), a guest with whom we weren't acquainted (and had not even been introduced to) suddenly blurts at us, "are you guys gay???". I was so completely caught off guard that I just stood there, gaping. My partner turned to me in mock surprise, eyes wide and asked me, 'Are you gay?', to which I managed to eventually stammer out an affirmative answer. My partner turned to the man who had posed the question originally and said, "So am I - so I guess it's unanimous - we're gay." The guy and his wife quickly moved away from us and eventually off the dance floor entirely. When the song ended I went to use the restroom; my partner reports that the guy came up to him while I was gone to apologize for acting like an ****, to which my partner replied that we just laughed it off as a joke. (Mainly so he could avoid having to discuss it further or get into a confrontation over it.)

It was a minor incident, but it's really bugging me. I'm always wary at events like this because I don't want our presence to prevent anyone else from enjoying a good time - I'd rather just not go at all if it's going to be a problem. The trouble with that being that we could potentially just end up having to decline the few invitations we do receive. So we attend and constantly second-guess ourselves with regard to our behavior. Sometimes the more one tries not to draw attention, the more conspicuous one seems to be.

I'm just curious if other gay members have ever encountered a similar situation and how they reacted - and whether it deterred them from attending subsequent events. Thankfully we don't have anything else coming up soon - if we did, I'd probably look for an excuse to get out of it.

[PrinceJunius]

Quote: I'm just curious if other gay members have ever encountered a similar situation and how they reacted - and whether it deterred them from attending subsequent events. Thankfully we don't have anything else coming up soon - if we did, I'd probably look for an excuse to get out of it.

Yeah, it happens all the time in school with random people I don't know. They see me hanging around with the gay guys, and then they'll go, "Dude, you're gay?" To which I reply, "Dude, you're straight?"

I don't know if it'd bother me in a public situation, because the city of Ann Arbor accepts that 60% of its population is queer in some form anyway, so such a situation would be very rare in this part of America.

[F'losrix]

PrinceJunius wrote: Quote: I'm just curious if other gay members have ever encountered a similar situation and how they reacted - and whether it deterred them from attending subsequent events. Thankfully we don't have anything else coming up soon - if we did, I'd probably look for an excuse to get out of it.

Yeah, it happens all the time in school with random people I don't know. They see me hanging around with the gay guys, and then they'll go, "Dude, you're gay?" To which I reply, "Dude, you're straight?"

I don't know if it'd bother me in a public situation, because the city of Ann Arbor accepts that 60% of its population is queer in some form anyway, so such a situation would be very rare in this part of America.
Um, I live there too, remember? It's not even remotely close to 60% - how did you arrive at a figure like that? You're really presenting a very distorted picture of Ann Arbor to people who have no way of knowing differently.

For example, there are several hundred people working in the same buildings where I do, but I know of only 4 other people working here who are 'queer in some form' - and I encounter most everyone working here at some point due to the nature of my job. While it's quite likely there are several I don't know about, I've no reason to believe it even approaches 10%, let alone 60% - and I'm in a very gay-friendly environment.

While I'm at first tempted to say that the school environment is very different from something like the private function I mentioned attending, on reflection I suppose it isn't so different after all - there are rude people everywhere. We tend to operate under the delusion that adults should have the maturity and wisdom to know and act better than adolescents. Quite clearly it doesn't always work that way, though.

[PrinceJunius]

Quote: Um, I live there too, remember? It's not even remotely close to 60% - how did you arrive at a figure like that? You're really presenting a very distorted picture of Ann Arbor to people who have no way of knowing differently.

Queer in some form is a very vague statement, and I purposefully made it such. If you walk up to anyone in Ann Arbor, and ask them if they accept gay people in their community, the probable answer will be "yes."

I am making these observations through my own experiences in Ann Arbor. Maybe my experiences are a bit different because I mostly hang around with the younger Ann Arborites, but the slight majority of them don't have a problem with homosexual activity. Hell, for a project I did last semester on homophobia, I asked the entire school in a survey how many of them did things of a homosexual nature at least once. About 60% of them said they had. Also, I have pressed my straight friends many times about it, and most of them admitted that they could in fact tell whether another guy was attractive or not.

My best friend, who is straight and right-wing by the way, even rates male hotness with me when we're watching MTV or something. We'll be like, "Um...yeah, he's pretty hot." Ann Arbor is just more comfortable with homosexuality, and thus less homophobia is present in people's actions. Most people I hang around with in the actual city are also pretty similar, though I never meant to say that the entire city was gay or anything.

[Gryff1nd0r]

PrinceJunius wrote: Also, I have pressed my straight friends many times about it, and most of them admitted that they could in fact tell whether another guy was attractive or not.


i've never met someone who couldn't distinguish attractive people of either sex from unattractive people

[PrinceJunius]

thegriffinator13 wrote:

i've never met someone who couldn't distinguish attractive people of either sex from unattractive people

Well, if I ask them whether a certain guy is good-looking, they'll mostly say, "I'm not gay, how the hell do I know?" when in reality, they actually can tell if a certain guy is good-looking. Homophobia, and the fear of being labeled as gay, makes them deny they find anything attractive about the same sex, which is simply dumb.

I was very surprised to learn that most people at my school had had at least one homosexual experience. I didn't ask for details, because I didn't want the survey to get too sexual, but it was still very surprising for me. I almost want to start a thread on it, and ask the people here if they have had one homosexual experience (and the opposite for gay people), but I don't know...

[Gryff1nd0r]

PrinceJunius wrote: thegriffinator13 wrote:

i've never met someone who couldn't distinguish attractive people of either sex from unattractive people

Well, if I ask them whether a certain guy is good-looking, they'll mostly say, "I'm not gay, how the hell do I know?" when in reality, they actually can tell if a certain guy is good-looking. Homophobia, and the fear of being labeled as gay, makes them deny they find anything attractive about the same sex, which is simply dumb.

I was very surprised to learn that most people at my school had had at least one homosexual experience. I didn't ask for details, because I didn't want the survey to get too sexual, but it was still very surprising for me. I almost want to start a thread on it, and ask the people here if they have had one homosexual experience (and the opposite for gay people), but I don't know...

oh i see what you mean. obviously anyone can tell attractive people from unattractive people regardless of their sex. thats why guys will get jealous when they see the quarterback talking to their girlfriend but not the captain of the chess club. thats why girls dont give a s**t when they see me talking to their boyfriends, but they would if it was some blonde cheerleader.

you should start that thread

[Jay2014]

as ive never dated anyone of the same sex, i cant respond directly, but i did have an expirience not to different. i was at the wedding of my friends friend in a rural missouri town. about 20 of us had gone down there together, and i had brought my girlfriend, who happens to be of mexican decent (I am white) when my friend introduced me to one of her brothers friends, he said something like "oh, i saw you, youre the one here with the s***k b***h, right?" there were several other people around, and know one but my friend looked at all suprised. i simply excused myself without answering.

[curisz]

To me its like this: In every large social gathering there are going to be people who don't like each other. All these people are friends on some level with the hosts, and the hosts are probably well aware that not everyone will like each other, just as if you guys had a committment ceremony and wanted to invite all your friends. Some might be straight and even a little conservative, and others might be complete flaming drama queens.

But ultimately it has nothing to do with straight and gay. If it isn't you guys its the aunt that has a feud with the brother in law, the ex-wife/ex-husband drama, the young hippie type and the judgemental geezer. People invite you to these things because they cherish your friendship, and feel their celebration would be less without your presence, not because they expect you to get along with everyone else they invite.

In short, don't worry about it. And if someone else raises their eyebrows at you or gives you a look, still don't worry about it. Those people are not the reason you are there. Ignore them. Celebrate what you came to celebrate and rejoice in the fact that you have friends who value your being there more than they worry about anyone else being uncomfortable

[SavannahMan]

Go on Oprah!

[Ek0nomik]

curisz wrote: To me its like this: In every large social gathering there are going to be people who don't like each other. All these people are friends on some level with the hosts, and the hosts are probably well aware that not everyone will like each other, just as if you guys had a committment ceremony and wanted to invite all your friends. Some might be straight and even a little conservative, and others might be complete flaming drama queens.

But ultimately it has nothing to do with straight and gay. If it isn't you guys its the aunt that has a feud with the brother in law, the ex-wife/ex-husband drama, the young hippie type and the judgemental geezer. People invite you to these things because they cherish your friendship, and feel their celebration would be less without your presence, not because they expect you to get along with everyone else they invite.

In short, don't worry about it. And if someone else raises their eyebrows at you or gives you a look, still don't worry about it. Those people are not the reason you are there. Ignore them. Celebrate what you came to celebrate and rejoice in the fact that you have friends who value your being there more than they worry about anyone else being uncomfortable

Seem to be avoiding the topic at hand.

I only know of two homosexual people in the community I live in, and I'm not friends with either, so I can't really make a judgement on Mystics case. (I'm not friends with them simply because they aren't my kind of friends. Not the fact that their gay, that doesn't bother me one bit.)

I'd say just always act yourselves. Don't try to hide. It can only help spread the well being of the matter. Maybe you can show the homophobes that you're actually humans too. :)

[F'losrix]

Ek0nomik wrote: I'd say just always act yourselves. Don't try to hide. It can only help spread the well being of the matter. Maybe you can show the homophobes that you're actually humans too. :)
Nice sentiment, but not based on reality. If we were completely open about being a couple in the same manner that heterosexual couples around us are, we'd never get invited anywhere - people would interpret that openness as 'flaunting our sexuality' in order to prove some point. They would think that we're trying to be the center of attention and detract from the focus of the event.

That isn't theory - it's fact. My partner boycotted his niece's graduation party (in spite of my urging him to attend anyway) because his brother & sister-in-law wrote us a rather nasty letter to make it clear that the invitation was intended only for my partner and that I was not welcome to attend because they believed my mere presence would upstage their daughter on her special day. They didn't want to be forced into explaining who I was and why I was there - they were not content even to have me there as a friend of the family with no other definition given to the relationship between myself and my partner. This came as quite a shock, as his family had seemed pretty accepting of us as a couple prior to that. Needless to say, things have been very uncomfortable with them for the past couple of years - we're only just now getting to a point where we can all tolerate being in the same room together for extended periods of time.

Thankfully, my family has a completely different attitude. When I showed up at my aunt's funeral without my partner, my sister's greeting consisted of 'Where's Mike?' We get very 'spoiled' by their acceptance - makes it really hard to make that extra effort at being inoffensive in other settings. Sure, I could just cut everyone out of my life who doesn't accept us completely as a couple without reservation - but we'd be pretty damned lonely in that case. As long as our friends make a reasonable effort to include us, I see no reason to repay them by causing a controversy by being too overt at the events they host. I hope it will be different for the generations of gay people behind us at some point in the future, but I have no illusions regarding my limited ability to bring that kind of change into effect. We're still taking baby steps in this society when it comes to accepting the presence of openly gay couples at private functions. We're consider ourselves lucky that anyone wants us around at all, so why alienate them? Just so we can feel 'free' - and isolated? No thanks.

[George W Bush]

I aint gay. But, ive got tattooes, ear, tongue and eyebrowe piercing and am just as socially stigmatised (if not worse) as you's.
What else do you expect from pompous people? Anything outside their realm has to be reaffirmed. At least the person admitted his mistake. Most of the time there's no guilt, no shame from them - in fact, alot of them act like its their job to remind you how different you are.
The best thing to do is kill em with kindness. Personally, ide want nothing of a party where at least half the people arent like me.

[John Galt]

George W Bush wrote: I aint gay. But, ive got tattooes, ear, tongue and eyebrowe piercing and am just as socially stigmatised (if not worse) as you's.
What else do you expect from pompous people? Anything outside their realm has to be reaffirmed. At least the person admitted his mistake. Most of the time there's no guilt, no shame from them - in fact, alot of them act like its their job to remind you how different you are.
The best thing to do is kill em with kindness. Personally, ide want nothing of a party where at least half the people arent like me.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of work do you do? I know Dairy Queen won't hire a person who has metal hanging out of their face, nor would I unless they had some advanced degree and was a necessity to my workforce. I always wondered where such folk find jobs. And are the tattoos on your face, hands or anywhere visible? I'veseen people with tattooed faces and I can only see themworking in a tattooing place... although I did see one painting one time.

[curisz]

John Galt wrote: George W Bush wrote: I aint gay. But, ive got tattooes, ear, tongue and eyebrowe piercing and am just as socially stigmatised (if not worse) as you's.
What else do you expect from pompous people? Anything outside their realm has to be reaffirmed. At least the person admitted his mistake. Most of the time there's no guilt, no shame from them - in fact, alot of them act like its their job to remind you how different you are.
The best thing to do is kill em with kindness. Personally, ide want nothing of a party where at least half the people arent like me.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of work do you do? I know Dairy Queen won't hire a person who has metal hanging out of their face, nor would I unless they had some advanced degree and was a necessity to my workforce. I always wondered where such folk find jobs. And are the tattoos on your face, hands or anywhere visible? I'veseen people with tattooed faces and I can only see themworking in a tattooing place... although I did see one painting one time.

Oh, come on John: Record stores, music stores, funky little cafes, most book stores, factory work, telemarketing, customer call centers, programmers, construction work....

Granted, once you tatoo your face or put in multiple face piercings (like bull rings in the nose or those big stretchy tubes in the ears) your odds of ever being wealthy plummet unless your a computer genius, a successful musician or own your own tatoo parlor, and getting a job is definitely going to be harder, but I see people like that productively employed every day.

[George W Bush]

curisz wrote: John Galt wrote: George W Bush wrote: I aint gay. But, ive got tattooes, ear, tongue and eyebrowe piercing and am just as socially stigmatised (if not worse) as you's.
What else do you expect from pompous people? Anything outside their realm has to be reaffirmed. At least the person admitted his mistake. Most of the time there's no guilt, no shame from them - in fact, alot of them act like its their job to remind you how different you are.
The best thing to do is kill em with kindness. Personally, ide want nothing of a party where at least half the people arent like me.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of work do you do? I know Dairy Queen won't hire a person who has metal hanging out of their face, nor would I unless they had some advanced degree and was a necessity to my workforce. I always wondered where such folk find jobs. And are the tattoos on your face, hands or anywhere visible? I'veseen people with tattooed faces and I can only see themworking in a tattooing place... although I did see one painting one time.

Oh, come on John: Record stores, music stores, funky little cafes, most book stores, factory work, telemarketing, customer call centers, programmers, construction work....

Granted, once you tatoo your face or put in multiple face piercings (like bull rings in the nose or those big stretchy tubes in the ears) your odds of ever being wealthy plummet unless your a computer genius, a successful musician or own your own tatoo parlor, and getting a job is definitely going to be harder, but I see people like that productively employed every day.

second to last from your list. damn your good! :lol:

[the truth]

First of all, you put yourself out there like that. You should have known that two males dancing together around all straight people looked a little odd. Nothing wrong with it, but you definately do stand out because it is not normal to most people.

I would have let you dance because it doesn't effect me, but not all people will accept it. I think gay people are forcing their agenda on the populace too quickly.

Usually I do not compare gays to blacks because its not the same, but in this case it is similar. Look how long it took for blacks to be integrated into culture. Whether it be TV or riding the bus together it took a solid 100+ years.

Now gay people have tried to change a complete culture in less than 20 years. 20 years ago gay people were a joke or a myth. You were not seen on TV or society and now you have your own shows. You are on every season of the Real World, You have Queer Eye, gay preachers, Decorating shows, MTV can't get enough, Rosie O'donell wont shut up about it, and the list goes on. Honestly, your culture needs to slow down and let people adjust to your integration slowly. Change does not happen over night but you push it like it does. It seems like everytime I look on TV I am bombarded with gay people, actors pretending to be gay, flamboyant hairdressers, and more.

I'm sorry but black people have only been integrated in society so much after 150 years, and we still have a long way too go. How do you expect people to act when 25 years ago most of you were in the closet. It is most definately a culture shock, not to say its right though.

[F'losrix]

the truth wrote: First of all, you put yourself out there like that. You should have known that two males dancing together around all straight people looked a little odd. Nothing wrong with it, but you definately do stand out because it is not normal to most people.
I'm not to blame for someone else's rudeness. Nor am I going to just sit there and watch everyone else have a good time, nor pretend to be straight by dancing with women. Doesn't matter what we were or weren't doing - he had no business asking the question regardless of his suspicions.

The more I think about it the more inclined I am to just stay home next time. This is why gay people migrate and isolate themselves in predominately gay communities - because they're sick of having to put up with this crap.

Quote: I would have let you dance because it doesn't effect me, but not all people will accept it. I think gay people are forcing their agenda on the populace too quickly.
Here we go with the 'gay agenda' again. The only agenda I have is to be treated with some basic respect as a fellow human being. If people can't give me that, f**k 'em.

Quote: Now gay people have tried to change a complete culture in less than 20 years.
Clearly you don't know much about the history of the movement. Try more like 50 years. Not to mention the movement that Hitler snuffed out in Germany.

Quote: 20 years ago gay people were a joke or a myth. You were not seen on TV or society and now you have your own shows. You are on every season of the Real World, You have Queer Eye, gay preachers, Decorating shows, MTV can't get enough, Rosie O'donell wont shut up about it, and the list goes on.
I am so incredibly sick of hearing straight people complain about how sick they are of seeing gay people on TV.

Quote: Honestly, your culture needs to slow down and let people adjust to your integration slowly.
Yeah, that'll happen. (not)

Quote: Change does not happen over night but you push it like it does.
Change won't happen at all if we don't fight the demands of straight people to keep ourselves hidden and stop upsetting them.

Quote: It seems like everytime I look on TV I am bombarded with gay people, actors pretending to be gay, flamboyant hairdressers, and more.
I swear, we need an emoticon for whining.

Quote: I'm sorry but black people have only been integrated in society so much after 150 years, and we still have a long way too go. How do you expect people to act when 25 years ago most of you were in the closet. It is most definately a culture shock, not to say its right though.
The culture will have to adjust. We're not going to coddle you anymore. I don't like being told to be patient anymore than any other minority.

[connermt]

A guy I worked with & I went bike riding one Saturday afternoon. While we worked in different departments, we did talk a lot together, as was the necessity of the business. We would also chat during work just for fun when the opprutunity arose. So I go to his place, put his bik in the back of my truck with mine & head out into BFE (had no idea where we were headed). About ¾ the way there, from conversation, he ask me the question & I say "Well yeah - doesn't everyone know?!?" I guess not everyone did. He asked me to turn around & take him home immediately. Needless to say it was an uncomfortable drive back to his place. It was a reality check for me for sure. It is my belief that this guy was dealing with his own sexuality (from the conversations we have had in the past & the one we were having at the time). So I took that under consideration. For weeks he wouldn't even talk to me then all of a sudden one day I get an email from him & he was chattin' with me like nothing happened :shock: & we continued that relationship until he got another job. Weird.
Then another time there was a guy that sit behind me & everyday he made the point to say hi to me when he came in. We chatted @ work, but never did anything outside of work. One day some people brought in some Valentine's Day candy for my group. I'm not a big candy person, so the candy I didn't want, no one else did either. So I go over to this guy & say "Hey, you want the rest of this candy?" Wow - I thought his head was going to explode. He informed me, in a few different ways, that he is NOT into that. I was simply trying to get rid of candy that no one else wanted. He didn't talk to me for a few weeks then went back to normal loke nothing happened.
Double weird

[Enoch]

connermt wrote: A guy I worked with & I went bike riding one Saturday afternoon. While we worked in different departments, we did talk a lot together, as was the necessity of the business. We would also chat during work just for fun when the opprutunity arose. So I go to his place, put his bik in the back of my truck with mine & head out into BFE (had no idea where we were headed). About ¾ the way there, from conversation, he ask me the question & I say "Well yeah - doesn't everyone know?!?" I guess not everyone did. He asked me to turn around & take him home immediately. Needless to say it was an uncomfortable drive back to his place. It was a reality check for me for sure. It is my belief that this guy was dealing with his own sexuality (from the conversations we have had in the past & the one we were having at the time). So I took that under consideration. For weeks he wouldn't even talk to me then all of a sudden one day I get an email from him & he was chattin' with me like nothing happened :shock: & we continued that relationship until he got another job. Weird.
Then another time there was a guy that sit behind me & everyday he made the point to say hi to me when he came in. We chatted @ work, but never did anything outside of work. One day some people brought in some Valentine's Day candy for my group. I'm not a big candy person, so the candy I didn't want, no one else did either. So I go over to this guy & say "Hey, you want the rest of this candy?" Wow - I thought his head was going to explode. He informed me, in a few different ways, that he is NOT into that. I was simply trying to get rid of candy that no one else wanted. He didn't talk to me for a few weeks then went back to normal loke nothing happened.
Double weird

I had something like that with a coworker once too.

There was a guy that I had worked with (at a bank) for about 3 months. Every day we talked, and he was always a nice guy. We never talked about our personal lives much, other than surface things (movies, books, hobbies, etc). We had the same lunch time one day and he asked if I wanted to go grab something to eat with him.

During lunch we started talking more about our personal lives. He mentioned his ex-girlfriend, his current fiance, and about six others girls he had dated in the past. When he asked me if I was seeing someone, and I said I was, he said "oh, what's her name?"

"Well, his name is Andy," I said. That was all he needed to hear. He went nuts. He started lecturing me about forcing my sexuality down his throat and, of course, pulled out the "I don't care what you do behind close doors, just don't go parading it around...it's sick."

You know, all I said was that I was dating a guy named Andy. That's it. I didn't go in to our sex life, as that isn't anyone's business. How was I forcing it down his throat...especially since he asked about my love life??

Needless to say, we didn't have lunch again.