Political Crossfire Forums

[Locke25]

Quote: well thts why i started this topic, women ae obviously degraded in this religion when they or their representation or w/e is used in heaven for nothing more than sex if the mid east wasnt as male domient i think many women would turn away from islam

i don't think they are actually women, so i don't think you can compare what those things represent up there to what women are seen as down here.

Quote: pharoah did you ever site a verse tht says these women arent actually women and are just hour ein things??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
read more about those things if you want.

Quote: The houri are mentioned in the following verses of the Qur'an:
[44.51] Surely those who guard (against evil) are in a secure place,
[44.52] In gardens and springs;
[44.53] They shall wear of fine and thick silk, (sitting) face to face;
[44.54] Thus (shall it be), and We will wed them with Houris pure, beautiful ones.
[44.55] They shall call therein for every fruit in security;
[44.56] They shall not taste therein death except the first death, and He will save them from the punishment of the hell,
[44.57] A grace from your Lord; this is the great achievement.
[44.58] So have We made it easy in your tongue that they may be mindful.
[44.59] Therefore wait; surely they are waiting.
[55.56] In them shall be those who restrained their eyes; before them neither man nor jinni shall have touched them.

i don't really see the qu'ran say they don't have souls, but i don't think it describes them as similar to women on earth either.

[pharaoh]

locke25,

Quote: I have no problem with him assigning them different roles. Men are more capable of doing some work, where women are better at doing other work. I DO see that as equality. That’s not where I get the idea that males are superior… and like I said, I don’t see them as “superior” in all aspects. They are equal… except when it comes to the thing with the witness case… women’s intelligence can be impaired, where men’s can’t.. and women are inaccurate, where men are always accurate. THAT’S where I get the inequality.. and that has nothing to do with “different roles.”


As i said before its only concerning witnessing that the testament of 2 women is a must.And that can be explained by scientific reasons.As we agreed,there is atleast a week in a month were a women judgment of things may not be EXACTLY correct,meaning 100%.And like I said this doesnt by any way affect women work or anything else.Just witnessing for the potential gravity and consequences of this testament.
Yes its not about different roles but its about women nature.It is god who has created you that way.You have to just accept god will.
If you talk to any muslim women you may find yourself that these things doesnt alert or bother them at all because they know that Islam doesnt treat them harshly.

Quote: First, if Muhammed came flat out and said “Men are better than women,” how many people wouldn’t see that as hypocrisy? I know the qu’ran teaches tolerance (at least, I think it does?) … so how would that be tolerance towards women? Completely deny them of rights… wow, yah, muhammed’s God would get A LOT of followers that way. He’s not doing good works by saying women are inferior… and once again, I’m sure the qu’ran teaches about good works.


Listen what you are saying doesnt make a bit of sense!
why?
Lets pretend that you were living in the US,in the south or at a rural village close to the Mississippi to be more accurate during the peak of slave trading.And suddenly you go out and tell people that slavery is wrong and people should just stop what they are doing.
Now just think about what would have happened to you!
Islam came to the -most probably- the ugliest community that were living at this time.I told you before,fathers would feel so ashamed that their wife gave birth to a baby girl that they would just bury the baby girl alive under the sand.Thats the community that Islam came to.
Women were regarded by all of the arab tribes as nothing but sex objects.Although it may not be as this bad cause i studied arab poetry before Islam and it contained some WONDERFUL romantic poems.(I personally think that arab poetry is the most beautiful in the world)
If Muhammed was just a liar or a power seeker man wouldnt it have been easier for him if he just talked briefly about women rights and not giving them EQUAL STATUS towards god,gave them respect and rights more than any other holy book?! Even more than the Bible?! (I am getting into that part)

Quote: Yes, I know. And just because they are “different” doesn’t mean they are not equal. But when the qu’ran goes and says that men’s accuracy can’t be questioned and all women’s can…. That’s unequal…


As i said before.Women inaccuracy can be explained scientifically.And you yourself said that women can be inaccurate 1 week in a month.Islam says in that week a women can continue working and practicing her daily life.ONLY in witnessing does the testimony of 2 women is required for the gravity of the situation.Thats it.Ask any muslim women that has a good knowledge about her religion and she would tell you the same.

Quote: Agreed. I don’t think my God wants to make my life miserable at all..


Thats why Islam came,to make your life happier in this world and in the next.

Quote: never said the veil was worn to make them feel inferior. I don’t think that is why they wear, in fact, many CHOOSE to wear that veil.

I only mentioned the veil because many non muslim think that it reduce the status of women.

Quote: But to me, it seems ridiculous… first, it’s ridiculous that men would look at a woman without a veil and be like MM, SEX!

Thats how we are BABY! :shock: :twisted:
Men are more into visuals while women are more into personality.I think you should know that.
Or else tell me why sexual ads are more interesting to watch and they indeed help increase sales?
If you think about it for a second you may notice that ALL of your life is influenced by sex,sexual references or things associated with sex!

Quote: Second, I don’t understand why men wouldn’t want to wear some sort of cover up too? I mean, if men have the “women are sex objects” thinking, I’m sure there are women too that look at men and are like MM, SEX!! But for some reason… men don’t have to wear anything like that…


Women are more into personality....men are more into visuals.
Do you agree or not agree with that statment?

Quote: No. there are plenty of women who are already married/have a boyfriend that still want to look decent when going out in public.

That ofcourse is true.But come on,a women always want to feel that she is wanted.Especially women who are in their mid 30s,so that they dont feel like they are getting old,which means:No sexy.
I think I heard once (i could be wrong) that most plastic surgery are used/done by women who are above 30.Which kinda make sense to what i am saying.

Quote: There are many people that judge (sad but true…) so people that go out in public looking HORRIBLE are not only being judged by men, but women, kids, teens.. everyone judges them. and it affects how people will treat you while you’re out.


Sadly,i am becoming to realize that women arent 'stupid' about what they wear.I mean when I was a teen i used to believe that girls dont know that they are actually wearing clothes that makes them look very sexy and all what they think about is looking decent.
I believe that they know what they are doing! they know that wearing a tigh jeans will turn heads and so...
I am not saying that all women in all ages do that.Ofcourse when a women feel secure in her marriage maybe all what she wants is to look decent.She she indeed must look decent in order to spare herself from the "iky" eyes of the public.

Quote: It depends on what they are getting “promoted” as. If it is who you are going to hire for a lawyer, you’re not going to pick the pretty girl over the ugly girl. You’ll pick who does the job the best. The company isn’t going to want to lose money just so they can have a pretty image…


Yes ofcourse the job matters.But I was talking in general.A sexy girl would climb up faster than an average girl.She would have many more job opportunities than the average girl.Like modeling,acting,singing...etc
And do you think this is indeed in the benefit of women?
I dont think so,just read Eminem lyrics,the number 1 singer in the US,read how he views women.Do you know the magnitude of what he is doing? Eminem and most R&B and RAP singers out there talk about women like they are nothing but w***s.Young boys,fans to these singers will most likely adobt their view points or atleast take notes of the world they are living into.Young girls,fans to these singers,will most probably agree with what they are saying! I swear i talked to an Eminem fan myself (a girl fan),i told her "how come you listen to a man that talks about you like you are a w****" .She basically didnt care.

Quote: Alright, but you act like those women that do that have NOTHING else to offer but show themselves off. Which is very untrue..


I am not saying that.I am saying they are choosing the easier road.It is an easier career but in the same time they are destroying their rights by helping in the increase of negative attitude towards women.

Quote: I watch MTV too.. and I do see there are plenty of women that use their looks to get farther. but the fact is, in Hollywood, the prettier women make more money (so sad)… so companies will (usually) hire them (over the uglier woman) even though they that can’t act, can’t sing, etc. but there are so many other cases where going with the pretty woman and not the one with talent WON’T make them more money.


Like a lawyer? Ok,but as i said before,in general, a pretty women will get farther thanks to her looks than an average girl.Like a secretary as an example.

Quote: Yes, and I understand that. With regards to women’s job and men’s job in the household… I understand that men are better at doing extremely hard work, where women are more fit to raise children (at least I think they are...). but I’m still not going to agree that seeing women as inaccurate and capable of being impaired intellectually

Impaired intellectually only by a margin.That (as i said before) doesnt affect their work.Islam doesnt say that a women should take the day off if she had her period as an example.

Quote: because that gives men an advantage in some situations, but that would never give woman an advantage in a situation. Inequality…


Okay,but thats the way god wanted it.Men are created to do the hard work while women cant.If you take this alone without putting in mind the whole situation,then you will find inequality.
Men are born to do the hard work.women are born to take care of her family.But if the need arise,she can still work.But god knows best and he has created women in this way.That they may suffer from cetain diseases or symptoms that can affect them intellectually.These diseases are REAL.So we are not talking about a thing that doesnt exist.Why is it so? We can talk alot about this.But what you need to know is that its god will.Like it was god will that all prophets should be male.Or that the first human being,Adam was a male.These things are there,they are REAL and it is god will that they are so.But dont make a mistake that God view women as inferior to men.I already showed you that in Islam we are ALL equal.But god created men and women different in many things.This is how god wants it to be.

More later...

[Geneviève]

Quote: These things are there,they are REAL and it is god will that they are so.

Unless one doesn't believe in God, and believes the Bible is a big pile of patriarchal dog feces written by misogynistic men thousands of years ago.
In which case, these things aren't "real", they aren't "there", and they aren't God's will, because there is no God.

However, I generally avoid this type of debate.
If I were a Christian woman, I agree; I wouldn't have a leg to stand on when it came to proving my own equality or disproving the myth of inherent male superiority.
If I were a Christian woman, I wouldn't bother to argue, as the Bible expressly prohibits it.

[pharaoh]

Genevieve,

Quote: Unless one doesn't believe in God, and believes the Bible is a big pile of patriarchal dog feces written by misogynistic men thousands of years ago.
In which case, these things aren't "real", they aren't "there", and they aren't God's will, because there is no God.


I and Locke25 both believe in god.This is why we have share some common ground here.
Ofcourse if you dont believe in god then there is no God will.That is logical and so if i were to debate with you our debate will be at least a bit different.For instance,I would debate with you that the equal status of women and men in Europe doesnt mean that women are living better.Instead i would say that women are put under alot of stress and that their lives are extremly hard.I read a report were it says that most French people (male and female) are suffering from depresion.That gives us a hint that something is really wrong in their way of life that is causing them so much suffering.Although, they are all protected by the law and such...

Quote: If I were a Christian woman, I agree; I wouldn't have a leg to stand on when it came to proving my own equality or disproving the myth of inherent male superiority.


Is it mentioned in the New testament that men are superior to women?

Quote: If I were a Christian woman, I wouldn't bother to argue, as the Bible expressly prohibits it.

Is it mentioned in the New testament that women are prohibited to argue?

[Locke25]

Quote: Locke25....I know! I am sorry i was very busy (still),i will reply to you next,no not now a little bit later.
And hey why did you change your avatar?? She was Sexy hurraaaaa Very Happy
Wasnt she Anna kornikova?
*Pharaoh runs away*

I got sick of Anna. Perhaps I'll put her back....

Quote: More later...

I'll just wait until you're all done. :)

Quote: Is it mentioned in the New testament that men are superior to women?

No

Quote: Is it mentioned in the New testament that women are prohibited to argue?

As long as they are being respectful, I'm pretty sure they can argue

Quote: Although it may not be as this bad cause i studied arab poetry before Islam and it contained some WONDERFUL romantic poems.(I personally think that arab poetry is the most beautiful in the world)

:razz: i know it's kind of off topic, but what are some of your favorite poems? and poets?

[checkerboardstrangler]

pharaoh wrote:
No,even Saudi arabia is not practicing the Sharia properly.They are still living in the culture of the desert and tribes....most unfortunately...

Okay....you can answer now....(thanks for waiting)
*pharaoh runs away for cover*

---The wisest thing said in the entire thread is above....
"Not even Saudi Arabia is practicing the Sharia properly"

That's pretty much equivalent to the Christian Bible verse:
"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

So in other words, like any religion, there are contradictions and paradoxes in the Holy Scriptures, there are tenets that are not followed perfectly by the adherents and there are mysteries yet to be explained.

Oh how tiny our minds are when we try to wrap them around the concept of God.

I am not well versed in Sharia Law.

JeffH in Dallas

[curious_pixie]

pharaoh wrote: I believe that my point of view is also based on Platos cave,which one friend of mine once explained it to me.Do you know it?
So i am totaly against discussing a religion in its own perspective.I think that the teachers in your university were atheists.Cause atheists think that there is no god so there is no prophets and they are just pretenders,so they didnt receive any divine message from god which means that they invented their own religion.SO that is why its important in their opinion to take each religion in its own perspective cause the pretender fabricated his own religion based on the society he was living in.
I believe I have angered you, if inadvertently, I apologise for that. Looking at a religion in it's own light was not meant to exclude other viewpoints. What I was trying to say is to give a religion (or even a work of philosophy) a chance to come to grips with what it presents before going off on a tangent and enlisting the help of foreign thought.

Some of my teachers might have been atheists, though I doubt it. Certainly none of them claimed to have received divine messages and neither do I. On the other hand, they never talked about pretense nor did they propagate atheism.

Later on I exchanged "signing contracts" for "giving witness" for which I am sorry as well. I guess as was too entangled in my train of thought, and not being a law student (I'm an engineer), and paid too little attention.

The interesting point that is underlying this part of the conversation is whether a non-believer can meaningfully debate a religion or whether his analyses are merely "rotten apples" (as you put it). From a spiritual point, said unbeliever, will benefit little, however he isn't necessarily trying to dismantle religion. You make an excellent argument about the Prophet (I'm adding a "sallallahu aleihi ua sallam" so as not to offend again) having had little to no knowledge of writing - as a merchant he did keep record of sums, I'll try to find that in the Sunna some time. And truly, the Qur'an al Karim employs a language that is completely outside of its time. There have been attempts of scholars to falsify it (I'm sure you're familiar with those) only to see them fail.

Plato's metaphor of the cave has always delighted me, as it delights me today to gain insight into other people's thoughts. Having cleared out a bit of mutual misunderstanding (I hope), I'm looking forward to your next post.

[pharaoh]

Locke25,

Quote: I’d still appreciate it if the qu’ran had mentioned women being able to “lightly beat” their husbands.

Well god didnt mention it either in the bible,and before you tell me that there is no wife beating in the NT,I will still mention that the NT didnt raise much the status of women.Further more,as far as i know,there is no passage in the NT that says that all the laws of the OT are outdated.That means they are still applicable to christians and i guess you already know how horrible some of these passages are to women.Again,do you really believe that god,the wise the merciful the just,will allow such horrible treatment to women?!
Again:Do you really think that the OT and the NT are the true words of god?
Whatever your opinion is,read this:

"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"


Islam deals with reality,in general men are stronger than women.God made the man the leader of the family.He should be respected and obeyd by his wife.But the wife has also some rights on her husband.
Locke25 have you ever read prophet muhammed last speech?
If not,let me tell you that he didnt order muslims to launch wars on their neighbours,he didnt order women to stay in home and take care of the kids,he didnt...well why dont you read it yourself,here it is:
http://www.netnavigate.com/if/qutaba.html
I am bringing this up to show you what he did say about the relationship between men and women:

O people! Your wives have certain rights over you and you have certain rights over them. Treat them well and kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers ...


You may think that is not enough but this was his last speech and it was a really short speech but he didnt forget to remind the muslims how the relationship between a husband and his wife should be like.

Quote: Haha, sorry, I told you I didn’t understand the quote! And once again, I’m not saying that islam TOTALLY ignores equality. Because they don’t… and I DO understand that women’s “rights” got better once Islam was introduced in the Arab world. But I’m still saying it didn’t show equality on all levels…


They are equal before god but they have different roles in life.Locke25 if you really think about it.And i do mean REALLY THINK ABOUT IT with a neutral mind you might begin to understand that the western concept of full equality between men and women didnt really give women equality.Women are regarded as sex objects more than ever...unfortunately it is really that bad.But on the other hand,if you think about the Islam concept of life,it is so real and practical and make sense.The husband work to feed his family,the wife stay home to take care of the children,the house is peaceful and calm because both the husband and the wife know their roles and they fear god in their actions.If the family is stable then the community will be stable.The wife can always trust her husband,he will not cheat on her because he fears god.women are not regarded as sex objects,there is no ads nor TV shows that use the secuality of women to attract the audiance.the result is that women status is always protected and secure.There is less chance that men or women cheat on their partners.Less rape,less crime=a better community,better economy and better life.And this is what its all about....better life.
Think about it.

Quote: I know, I can show you plenty of quotes from the old testament where women are seen as inferior beings. But there is part of the Bible called the new testament, where women are completed EQUALLY. Find me a quote from the NT where they are “anti females”…. I’d like to see it.


You are missing the point.THE NT DIDNT NULIFY THE OT.Which means that the OT is always applicable.
Find me a quote from the NT where it says that the OT is outdated and its laws shouldnt be respected by christians.I would love to see that.

Another point is:Wasnt god the one who wrote the...what did you say? "plenty of quotes...where women are seen as inferior beings" Now why would god,the one that you believe in his justice and wisdom,wrote those quotes?! Its really bizzare dont you think?!

Quote: I think a woman can be just as accurate as two women or a man. I don’t think that affects her accuracy in any way…


During certain times a women cant be 100% accurate.Thats what I believe in and it seems its what science says so...if you dont agree fine.

Quote: There are OBVIOUSLY differences between males and females. But the whole PMSing thing DOES make a male better. How is that beneficial for a woman? How will that give her an advantage over a man? It won’t. But, it does give a man advantage over a woman. And men don’t PMS…. So women can never get advantage. It just doesn’t work out.


You are searching in the details so you are obviously missing the general idea.Dont take something by itself and declare it as good enough to have a general idea.
Okay so men dont PMS but do you know that women live longer than men?! Very strange huh,although men have a stronger body women in general live longer than men.Now I can take that as a reason enough to say women are better than men.But I cant cause i would be mistaken.Men have some advantages and women have some....in the end both are regarded as equal by god.And thats what really matters.

Quote: Being emotional doesn’t help pregnant women get through it… it just makes them go insane.


Obviously you never were pregnant.That explains such comment.

Quote: Find me some stats… because I don’t believe you… cause I know there are some marriages where the husband would never lay a hand on his wife.


Okay here are the sad facts:

It has been estimated that only ten (10) percent of all domestic violence incidents are reported to the police, Knoxville Journal 2/9/84.

Each year more than one million women seek medical treatment for injuries inflicted by husbands, ex-husbands, or boyfriends.

Ninety-three (93) percent of battered women are willing to forgive and forget the first beating suffered from their partners. It also is common for women to blame themselves for provoking the behavior or starting the altercation

National Clearinghouse on Domestic Violence, Washington: U.S. Government Printing Office, l991. A woman is battered every 10-18 seconds in the United States.

Between 8 and 11 percent of pregnant women are abused by their partners.

Informal studies in doctor's offices determined that if women's appointments were cancelled by men, 90% of the women were victims of domestic violence,

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/wifebeating.htm

about one-quarter of all murders in the United States take place within the family. Surveys of American couples show that 20 to 50 percent have suffered violence regularly in their marriages. The records indicate that between two and four million incidents of domestic violence occur every single year. Wife abuse is one kind of family violence that probably occurs far more often than most people imagine. The tragedy is that many women suffer this abuse for years without getting help.

WHY DO MEN ABUSE THEIR WIVES:

In present-day society, violence in the movies, on TV, and in the newspapers is familiar and accepted. Many husbands who abuse their wives have learned that violence, especially against women, is okay. They often were abused themselves as children or saw their mothers abused. The battered wife most likely grew up in a similar environment.


http://www.healthieryou.com/wabuse.html

Does that ring a bell?! Remember what I said in the beginning of this post that women may have equal rights with men but in reality they are not treated as equal.See? What I said does make sense.

Quote: I was showing you how Jesus set an example of how to treat women equally. I think Christians would follow his lead.


As I said before the passages that you showed are vague and dont really give women any real rights.

Quote: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,t here is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” –Galatians 3:28


So what?! I already showed you that women and men are considered equal by god but you still say they are inequal.
So using your own reasoning,this passage doesnt say much.It still doesnt give women some real rights.

Quote: “This is the thing which the Lord commanded concerning the daughters of Zelophehad saying, LET THEM MARRY TO WHOM THEY THINK BEST..” –Numbers 36:6


Wow So strange,if I search a bit I can find a passage in the OT where a father can sell his daughter as a slave.

Quote: “The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father’s brethren’ and thou shalt cuase the inheritance of their father to pass unto them.” –Numbers 28:7 (28:8-11 are good too, I’m too lazy to type them…)


Okay so they can inherite a possession of an inheritance...how much?...who would decide?...the daughter...or the father...the big brother?
Can she always make use of this inheritance after she gets married? History tells us NO.History tells us that daughters had no rights,they couldnt get a fair share of the inheritance,they couldnt really use the money,the money would go straight to the husband.
sorry,but thats how things were...

Quote: “If a woman also vow a vow unto the Lord and bind herself by a bond, being in her father’s house in her youth’ and her father hear her vow and her bond wherewith she hath bound HER SOUL and her father shall hold his peace at her : then all her vows shall stand and every bond wherewith she hath bound HER SOUL shall stand.” –Numbers 3:4


Hummm...so??

Quote: And a debate whether females have souls or not would be ridiculous.

Yup women rights was a joke during medeival time.

Quote: are PLENTY of places in the Bible that would suggest women have souls (read above). If I knew more about this whole debate thing, I could probably tell you why they were arguing such a thing.. but I’ve actually never heard about it.


A christian guy here told me about this debate.He dont lie and he has no reason to lie about it (he is christian).
Further more,wasnt it written in the bible that "you shall not kill"? Do you know that it was the Pope of Rome who ordered the first crusade that took thousands and thousands of lives in the name of Jesus?

ouufff...more later...sorry...

[pharaoh]

THE LAST CHAPTER IN THE SAGA...

TA TAAAA TA TA TA TAAAA TAAAAA TA TA TAAA TAAAA TA TA TA TAAAAAA

Okay lets get serious...

Quote: Women could inherit things. It doesn’t matter if that went to the husband.. he most likely used it to help the family.. same as she would have done.


Oh so a husband can never be greedy? A husband can never use his position to use all of his wife inheritance? Now you are being silly.
If the husband was indeed unfair to his wife,what are the guaranties given to her that she can seek justice? Oups...she cant even ask for divorce! Well neither can he anyway.So if the marriage doesnt work out the way its supposed to be,there cant be a way out.No divorce and no justice to the wife.Do you really like your "rights" so far Locke?

Quote: And plus, a “stay in home” job would not mean they were inferior.

Oookay so now you think its ok that women stay home and that doesnt make them inferior to men? Okay seems we are finding more common ground here...

Quote: Men were DESIGNED to do the hard jobs, women obviously were not.

Yup.

Quote: Back then, there were jobs like craftsmen, farmers, etc. Women can’t do that as well as men!! And men can’t take care of the home as well as women. So it worked out fine. But once jobs that required more intelligence (not saying that craftsmanship didn’t take intelligence, it just took a lot of hard work too… which is easier on men) came along, women started taking part. Look at the scientific revolution and enlightenment! Plenty of women involved there…


Okay so women werent allowed (yes I did say werent allowed) to work back in the time of Jesus cause jobs required very hard work and these jobs could only be done by men?
But now its fine for women to work....
Hummm...One thing clear in you Locke is that you are always finding your own reasoning why women have no much rights in the bible.Once its like 'oh but the husband would be a gentleman and would never take the inheritance of his wife' another time its 'Oh but the jobs back then were very hard and could only be done by men but now its okay for women to work' :roll:
Think about this Locke25...Do you really think that women werent allowed to work back then only because the jobs were hard? Do you have any idea how the society back then was totally dominated by men? I am telling you the father can sell his own damn daughter as a slave! and you are telling me jobs back then were hard?
Well here is the obvious question:Why didnt Jesus explain to us that women can indeed work as long as the jobs arent too difficult for them,meaning too physically demanding???
The Koran is a book that is applicable for all time.From the days of prophet Muhammed to the day of Judgment.If the bible is indeed eternal and for all time why isnt there just ONE little tiny miny passage that give women the right to work in general? Why isnt there ONE little tiny miny passage that give the husband or the wife the right to demand divorce? Why isnt there ONE little tiny miny passage that says all the harsh laws of the OT are boom...gone...no longer applied?? Think..then think again...until you come up with a reasonable and logical answer.(That would be hard)

Quote: okay, well we definitely disagree then. i think the bible is the word of God and the men that wrote it down weren't "evil." but.. believe what you want..


Stick with me and maybe I might be able to change that idea.

Quote: if Jesus raised the status of women, then the church should have followed Jesus. of course, the church is made up of imperfect people & even corrupt people through out history, so they didn't follow Jesus in all aspects. but just because the CHURCH believed women were inferior, doesn't mean Jesus agreed.


I am telling you its one thing what Jesus really did say and whats written in your bible.
In your bible women dont have any concret rights.You know,after thousands of years of discrimination one might think that the bible should have contained many passages and laws that give women REAL rights.Not just 'women can inherit'...'women and men are ONE in Jesus'...'A women can choose her husband' except for the last phrase women dont have any real rights guarantied by the law...by the church or whatever you want.
'A women must choose her husband' this phrase is perfect.It is clear and not vague.apart of this one,all the other passages that you showed me so far are vague.

Quote: they can get an education. that's a right.


No they couldnt get an education.As far as i know it is only in the 19th century were women were accepted in small numbers in universities.I have this feeling that you dont know much about how Europe was like the last centuries.
Dont you think it was because the bible weakness that women were abused and had no rights? If the bible was strict and firm that women SHOULD get education then that would have given them more rights against discrimination.
And I can even argue that Jesus only gave them religious lessons and thats it.So a priest can argue that there is not 1 passage in the bible that specifically say that women should get an education.All what Jesus did was giving them lessons about their religion.So women can only be taught about their religion and thats it.Do you think that I am exaggerating or talking nonsense? No I am not I am sure that the situation was like this.

Quote: there aren't female priests.... but that's not to say women aren't VERY active in churches. and there are women preachers/pastors.


Even though a priest doesnt do any HARD labor and so this 'Job',if we might call it so,can be exercised by women nevertheless they can not be priests.Why? You didnt tell me your own reasoning for this.You keep saying that they are equal and so and so,yet you keep on coming up with weak excuses why they couldnt work and such but here you didnt even come up with an excuse all what you did was saying "but thats not to say women arent VERY active in churches"!
Tell me,why couldnt the women be the leader for once! And that men should have just a "very active" role? If both sexes are equal why cant it be so at least for once?!
and why cant a women be a leader,if both sexes are indeed equal? Why didnt Jesus say that women can rule a nation just like men? That would have been the undeniable fact that women are completely equal to men.and I believe that you share with me the idea that being a leader is not a "job" that demands hard work and labor that only men can do.

Quote: no, that he saw women as important and didn't ignore them.


Indeed women are important but are they equal? Jesus appearing to a women first doesnt mean anything cause if he appeared to a man first we would have said that men Jesus saw men as important.

Quote: good for muhammed. they DO raise the status of women! compare how women were treated in the OT to the NT... and you'll see how women were treated completely different.

What I am saying is that Islam did raise the status of women more than anything before it.More than Judaism and Christianity....combined.
Maybe in my next post i might show you how women rights are more real in Islam.

Quote: well Jesus didn't ignore grieving women. he cared for them. he sets an example of how we should treat women right there!!


Jesus didnt ignore grieving women...prophet Muhammed married a grieving women in order to honor her and her husband.Compare if youd like.

“You wives will submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord. For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything. And you husbands must love your wives with the same love Christ showed the church. He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by baptism and God's word” - Eph 5:22-26 -

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS PASSAGE.Cause it is SOOO clear about who should submit to who...who gave his life to be the savior of who...who is the head of the family...
Wow Locke25 and you thought that by bringing me up this passage you would prove to me that women are indeed equal to men?! :shock:
What more should I say...It is sooo clear...should i say more?? i think not.

Quote: Henry the 8th...... was he the one that wanted to get a divorce but the Catholic church wouldn't let him? well anyways, there were some areas where if the husband was abusive, the wife could leave him. i'll give you an example if i can find one...


You were saying that women were able to seek divorce from the beginning of the 10th century (rights?) and here I wanted to prove to you that even a king couldnt divorce his wife in the 14th century so he had to kill her!
Was it the bible fault for being unrealistic and unpractical??

Okay locke25 take your time...

checkerboardsstrangler and curious pixie...i will reply to you in my next post.

[Jufarius87]

Locke25 wrote: Quote: well thts why i started this topic, women ae obviously degraded in this religion when they or their representation or w/e is used in heaven for nothing more than sex if the mid east wasnt as male domient i think many women would turn away from islam

i don't think they are actually women, so i don't think you can compare what those things represent up there to what women are seen as down here.

Quote: pharoah did you ever site a verse tht says these women arent actually women and are just hour ein things??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
read more about those things if you want.

Quote: The houri are mentioned in the following verses of the Qur'an:
[44.51] Surely those who guard (against evil) are in a secure place,
[44.52] In gardens and springs;
[44.53] They shall wear of fine and thick silk, (sitting) face to face;
[44.54] Thus (shall it be), and We will wed them with Houris pure, beautiful ones.
[44.55] They shall call therein for every fruit in security;
[44.56] They shall not taste therein death except the first death, and He will save them from the punishment of the hell,
[44.57] A grace from your Lord; this is the great achievement.
[44.58] So have We made it easy in your tongue that they may be mindful.
[44.59] Therefore wait; surely they are waiting.
[55.56] In them shall be those who restrained their eyes; before them neither man nor jinni shall have touched them.

i don't really see the qu'ran say they don't have souls, but i don't think it describes them as similar to women on earth either.

it says they will wed them...... which i would assume means they are sentinent (why would you need to wed them if they are souless?)

it still seems anti female as it incites that your earthly wife isnt good enough for you in heaven

it also doesnt seem right that god would tell you not to do something just so you could do it in heaven which should be a purer place.....

[pharaoh]

Curious Pixie,

Quote: I believe I have angered you, if inadvertently, I apologise for that.

No seriously I wasnt angry.We are just debating,everybody is entitled to his own opinion.

Quote: Looking at a religion in it's own light was not meant to exclude other viewpoints. What I was trying to say is to give a religion (or even a work of philosophy) a chance to come to grips with what it presents before going off on a tangent and enlisting the help of foreign thought.


Yeah Okay I agree with that.

Quote: The interesting point that is underlying this part of the conversation is whether a non-believer can meaningfully debate a religion or whether his analyses are merely "rotten apples" (as you put it).

My religion teaches me that I can talk to non muslims about my religion in a rational and calm way.So yes you can debate Islam if you want.As long as we do it in a civilized manner.Ofcourse I wouldnt like anyone just bashing my religion and then refuse to hear my answers.That wouldnt be much of a debate would it?
And I didnt mean that your views are like "rotten apples" and mine "fresh apples"! It was just an example.All what I wanted to say is that you can never appreciate something you have until you compare it with something else.That is the main idea.

Quote: You make an excellent argument about the Prophet (I'm adding a "sallallahu aleihi ua sallam" so as not to offend again)

Thanks for adding "sallallahu aleihi ua sallam" but seriously I dont even write it myself! I am easy going Curious Pixie i am not extreme in my views.You dont have to write these words cause you dont believe that he was a prophet.Thanks again but really you dont have to write these words.I wont be offended at all dont worry.

Quote: having had little to no knowledge of writing - as a merchant he did keep record of sums, I'll try to find that in the Sunna some time. And truly, the Qur'an al Karim employs a language that is completely outside of its time. There have been attempts of scholars to falsify it (I'm sure you're familiar with those) only to see them fail.


No believe me he couldnt write nor read at all.Even his enemies knew that and never accused him that he learned how to read and write in secret.
The miracle of Islam is the Kuran.This book is more powerful than what non muslims imagine.Its not written in a beautiful poetic style.Its not that.It is more powerful than words.We believe that it is written by god.No man can write such thing.God even defy that even if all mankind and jin would unite they wouldnt be able to produce even 1 chapter of those in the Kuran.You may not grasp how well and amazing it is by reading it in English but at least if you read the bible and the Kuran,I am sure you will notice the difference.
As you may know,the thing that distinguished the arabs at that time was that they were great poets.They loved poetry and honored the poets.And in that environment the Kuran was revealed.And it became clear to many arabs who listened to the words of the Kuran that these are no ordinary words.

Quote: Plato's metaphor of the cave has always delighted me, as it delights me today to gain insight into other people's thoughts. Having cleared out a bit of mutual misunderstanding (I hope), I'm looking forward to your next post.

Thanks and again dont worry there were no misunderstanding at all.

Checkerboardstrangler,

Quote: So in other words, like any religion, there are contradictions and paradoxes in the Holy Scriptures, there are tenets that are not followed perfectly by the adherents and there are mysteries yet to be explained.

Oh how tiny our minds are when we try to wrap them around the concept of God.

I am not well versed in Sharia Law.

JeffH in Dallas

Sorry but we muslims believe that there are no contradictions in Islam and I really challenge you to find ANY contradiction.
Saudi Arabia is not practicing properly the sharia simply because they choose to apply the more extremist laws.
For instance according to the Sharia the ruler must be chosen by the people.And he can not be called a king cause the only king in this world is god.But still we have a king and a political system that doesnt allow the election of the ruler and even questioning and criticizing his actions.
And that is just an example.

Jufarius87,

Quote: it says they will wed them...... which i would assume means they are sentinent (why would you need to wed them if they are souless?)


The houris are like angels.Both are souless.
I believe the word "wed them" was used to imply that the whole relationship wont be just about sex.The houris will please you in every way.And that also highers the status of the relationship.Meaning they are like your wives and not slaves.

Quote: it still seems anti female as it incites that your earthly wife isnt good enough for you in heaven


Keep in mind that:1- your wife may not be with you in heaven,she could go to hell
2-Your wife,if she goes to heaven with you,will be even prettier than the hour ein.
3-You are living in heaven for ETERNITY...whether you like it or not...you may get bored...God promise us that we will NEVER get bored in heaven.
4-The point about going to heaven is to be pleased forever.God promises us that we will be pleased for ever.Unlike Christianity,Islam doesnt view sex in heaven as impure.It is what makes us human.We eat,drink,laugh,have sex....all these things makes us human...when we go to heaven we will stay human,we wont change to angels but all the bad sentiments and feelings will be removed from our hearts.

Quote: it also doesnt seem right that god would tell you not to do something just so you could do it in heaven which should be a purer place.....

Dude...think about it...why adultery was prohibited on us?? Wasnt it because to secure the family? To raise healthy children in a good environment where the father loves and respects the mother and the mother loves and respects the father?
Wasnt it to stop the birth of a natural baby? a baby that may not even know who his father is? How would the mother raise him all by herself?

Now I ask you...are these reasons present in Heaven? If not...then why disallow sex??? Why a human has to live his life knowing that he should have all the sex he wants when he still can cause when he gets old or when he dies he would never be able to have sex again...for eternity!
Doesnt that make teens go crazy....like trying to have all the sex that they can before its too late?!

[curious_pixie]

pharaoh wrote:
The miracle of Islam is the Kuran.This book is more powerful than what non muslims imagine.Its not written in a beautiful poetic style.Its not that.It is more powerful than words.We believe that it is written by god.No man can write such thing.God even defy that even if all mankind and jin would unite they wouldnt be able to produce even 1 chapter of those in the Kuran.You may not grasp how well and amazing it is by reading it in English but at least if you read the bible and the Kuran,I am sure you will notice the difference.

Two tiny clarifications:
Praise of the Prophet was meant as a sign of respect, not to be seen as an appeasement for a poster here; I agree with you: in "mixed" company it might be counterproductive and lend an air of "apartness" to a post and thus muddy the clarity (or lack thereof) of the ideas presented.

I am quite capable of reading the Qur'an in Arabic, as you may have guessed, though I am by no means a scholar.

[pharaoh]

Quote: Praise of the Prophet was meant as a sign of respect, not to be seen as an appeasement for a poster here; I agree with you: in "mixed" company it might be counterproductive and lend an air of "apartness" to a post and thus muddy the clarity (or lack thereof) of the ideas presented.


Yeah you got my point but thanks anyway.

Quote: I am quite capable of reading the Qur'an in Arabic, as you may have guessed, though I am by no means a scholar.

Actually I had no idea that you can read arabic.Interesting.

[Muslima]

i know that the debate here is about women and islam, but it seems that it slipped off a bit, so can somebody please put me on the right track?!

[cassandrabandra]

Muslima wrote: i know that the debate here is about women and islam, but it seems that it slipped off a bit, so can somebody please put me on the right track?!

I've come in late, but it seems to me that when talking about women and Islam there is more than one way to look at the topic.

If I, as a woman, had only a choice to live in a society that strictly followed the holy book, then I would choose a society that would follow the Quran, rather than one that followed the Bible.

It is some time since I read either, however my recall is that in the Quran a woman is afforded more rights as a human being in her own right, whereas in the bible, and especially in the old testament - she is always an extension of husband or other male relatives.

However, If I have a choice between living in an Islamic state, or even in most secular Islamic societies - vs living in a western secular society, I would choose the latter. My rights in the public sphere are more clear. This however is a relatively recent phenomenon, so I wouldn't argue that it is inherently western or christian.

In terms of the public sphere, and the legal position of women, there is very little room for women to step outside fairly narrowly proscribed roles (apart from employment - many Muslim women I know are more likely to take on non traditional occupations such as engineering and hard sciences). I don't think I could live my life always having to tread so carefully.

In terms of the private sphere however, from what I have seen both among women I have met and families I have stayed with in the Muslim world, and the Muslim families I know in my own country, I believe the position of many Muslim women is better than many western women.

In my experience Muslim women are treated with respect by family members, including husbands, fathers, fathers-in-law, sons and other relatives. Of course this is not always the case, however I don't believe that males who treat women badly do so as the result of religious belief. They may find excuses in religion - regardless of what that religion is, but the problem lies within themselves, not their faith.

Another thing I feel it is important to mention is that the experience of women in Islam is not limited to one narrow range of experiences, and neither are many of these experiences unique to Islam. A woman from Sierra Leone or Liberia will usually have a similar experience of how religion and culture impact on her life whether she is Muslim or Christian, and a woman from Iran, regardless of whether she is Muslim or Baha'i, will have a similar experience, although different from the west African woman. And there are many other examples.

And finally, its worth considering that we should be aware that to some it is we who appear to be exploited most as women. Many Muslim women I know are glad to live in a country where they have equal rights at law, but are not comfortable with the exploitation of women's bodies in advertising and entertainment. This does not mean that they hate our way of life, but at present any criticism like this can be seen as evidence of 'not fitting in' with our culture.

[pharaoh]

Quote: However, If I have a choice between living in an Islamic state, or even in most secular Islamic societies - vs living in a western secular society, I would choose the latter. My rights in the public sphere are more clear. This however is a relatively recent phenomenon, so I wouldn't argue that it is inherently western or christian.


Just put in mind that there is not even 1 muslim state nowadays that practices Islam the right way. They either dont practice it fully or they practice it incorrectly.

[Saracen]

"Just put in mind that there is not even 1 muslim state nowadays that practices Islam the right way. They either dont practice it fully or they practice it incorrectly."

Very true. This is why the Western world perceives many different things about Islam concerning its laws and practices, especially when it comes to the rights and roles of women.

As I mentioned in another forum, there is a very clear line between the teachings of a Religion, and those who follow it. Just as pharoah mentioned, women's rights are being abused due to the lack of practice of Islam in the fully correct sense. For example, in Saudi Arabia, women are rarely seen in public and are not allowed to drive. This is mostly cultural/traditional/political than religious. Also, as Glorfindel mentioned in that forum (http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42444&start=20)
these laws are better off remaining than banned for the safety of the women living in Saudi Arabia from the rowdiness of many teenagers (Saudi AND Non-Saudi) roaming about the streets. Yes, I agree, it's a sad thing and a shame that such an abhorrent environment in Saudi Arabia exists and presses women to stay away from public places.

If the "Islamic" states were to get back on track and abide by Islam's teachings correctly, these countries would have been beautiful havens for all, Muslim and non-Muslim, women and men, etc... I'm sure you agree as well,Pharaoh and Muslima. :)

[cassandrabandra]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: However, If I have a choice between living in an Islamic state, or even in most secular Islamic societies - vs living in a western secular society, I would choose the latter. My rights in the public sphere are more clear. This however is a relatively recent phenomenon, so I wouldn't argue that it is inherently western or christian.


Just put in mind that there is not even 1 muslim state nowadays that practices Islam the right way. They either dont practice it fully or they practice it incorrectly.

well, yes. And I for one wonder how much of the dark side of Islam is in fact influenced by particular socio-historical factors. I do not believe that if the history of the US (or Australia, or the UK, or ...) had been the same as, say, the history of Palestine or Egypt over the last two hundred years we would be looking at women's position in these countries being quite what it is today. Actually, I should qualify that. Aboriginal Australian women often have a qualitatively different experience due to the fact that they are part of a group who have been colonised and oppressed.

Of course, this is another topic altogether, however if we want to understand the social conditions of any particular group, we should consider the impact of factors like these, and not assume that people should get over the past, because it just doesn't work that way.

Some material I have seen suggests that violence against women is on the increase in Palestine - a situation that is also reflected among Jewish populations in the region. Conflict situations, and increased insecurity, often go hand in hand with increases in violence against the most vulnerable members of a community, regardless of religion. I would argue that this violence can be institutionalised in the form of denial of legal rights to particular groups as well. Not all of them women.