Political Crossfire Forums

Jufarius87 · Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Posts: 1081 Location: Tonawanda N.Y.

the preamble on the constution website states that you acknowledge jesus christ as your savior and creator,

i am curious how you will get past the polarizing effect of such a statement in order to win votes

also it sounds like you are using the government to endorse a specific religion...... isnt that unconstitutional?

Classically Liberal · Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 2256 Location: Charleston, WV

Jufarius87 wrote: the preamble on the constution website states that you acknowledge jesus christ as your savior and creator,

i am curious how you will get past the polarizing effect of such a statement in order to win votes

also it sounds like you are using the government to endorse a specific religion...... isnt that unconstitutional?

Would it be worthwhile to hedge with a more moderate platform, in a vain attempt to curry favor with dominant ideologies? I do not think so.

anselfir · Joined: 16 Apr 2005 Posts: 22861 Location: ZzZzZzZz

IMO a true Christian stance would be to get away from politics altogether. the business is doomed to failure anyway.

Melchior · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 9224 Location: Palm Beach

If you are not theocrats, than what is the point of having a religious preamble in the first place?

I am an agnostic, can I join the Constitution Party? If I can than I am even more confused...

Classically Liberal · Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 2256 Location: Charleston, WV

oneofthem wrote: IMO a true Christian stance would be to get away from politics altogether. the business is doomed to failure anyway.

Christians should not be involved in the decision making processes that shape the world around them?

Classically Liberal · Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 2256 Location: Charleston, WV

Melchior wrote: If you are not theocrats, than what is the point of having a religious preamble in the first place?

I am an agnostic, can I join the Constitution Party? If I can than I am even more confused...

The confusion rests on the fact that many do not differentiate between the institution of Christianity and Christians themselves, in regard to politics. We do not support rule through the Church or by the Church. But, we do support Christian individuals being involved in government decision making. Which, ties into a strong belief in constitutional fundamentalism and Judeo-Christian ethics.

anselfir · Joined: 16 Apr 2005 Posts: 22861 Location: ZzZzZzZz

Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: IMO a true Christian stance would be to get away from politics altogether. the business is doomed to failure anyway.

Christians should not be involved in the decision making processes that shape the world around them? to a certain extent, politics is a limited expectation game. that is, if you wish to become a factor, you must sacrifice.

get involved, but don't expect to see the thing work out, because it iwll never work out.

i believe moral values must be the duty of society, nto government, to build. christians should focus more on prevention of abuses of governmetn, which is not a moral structure but a power structure, than censorship and all those tasks that rightfully belong under the domain of community.

Classically Liberal · Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 2256 Location: Charleston, WV

oneofthem wrote: Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: IMO a true Christian stance would be to get away from politics altogether. the business is doomed to failure anyway.

Christians should not be involved in the decision making processes that shape the world around them? to a certain extent, politics is a limited expectation game. that is, if you wish to become a factor, you must sacrifice.

get involved, but don't expect to see the thing work out, because it iwll never work out.

i believe moral values must be the duty of society, nto government, to build. christians should focus more on prevention of abuses of governmetn, which is not a moral structure but a power structure, than censorship and all those tasks that rightfully belong under the domain of community.

I think it is fairly obvious that the primary concern of the party platform is limitation on government (i.e. abuses of power). That is where the fundamentalism comes in to play.

Secondly, I do not believe you can draw sharp lines between community and government (specifically state/local governments). Local governmental institutions play an important role in community development.

Finally, your argument is better placed against a broad spectrum of fundamentalists (more specifically anybody on the outside of the current political spectrum), not specifically Christians. If we are to hold your logic constant we would find that no ideology based upon principle should enter the game. Every individual, group, or institution that enters politics must deal with log rolling.

anselfir · Joined: 16 Apr 2005 Posts: 22861 Location: ZzZzZzZz

Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: IMO a true Christian stance would be to get away from politics altogether. the business is doomed to failure anyway.

Christians should not be involved in the decision making processes that shape the world around them? to a certain extent, politics is a limited expectation game. that is, if you wish to become a factor, you must sacrifice.

get involved, but don't expect to see the thing work out, because it iwll never work out.

i believe moral values must be the duty of society, nto government, to build. christians should focus more on prevention of abuses of governmetn, which is not a moral structure but a power structure, than censorship and all those tasks that rightfully belong under the domain of community.

I think it is fairly obvious that the primary concern of the party platform is limitation on government (i.e. abuses of power). That is where the fundamentalism comes in to play.

Secondly, I do not believe you can draw sharp lines between community and government (specifically state/local governments). Local governmental institutions play an important role in community development.

Finally, your argument is better placed against a broad spectrum of fundamentalists (more specifically anybody on the outside of the current political spectrum), not specifically Christians. If we are to hold your logic constant we would find that no ideology based upon principle should enter the game. Every individual, group, or institution that enters politics must deal with log rolling.
of course i do not mean to give up on acting as citizens wtih religious beliefs, i merely mean that as Christians we are not political players for the politics.
i don't see any current issues off the table except perhaps overzealous censorship.

basically what i mean is that do not see politics as the only solution to problems.

Classically Liberal · Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 2256 Location: Charleston, WV

oneofthem wrote: Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: IMO a true Christian stance would be to get away from politics altogether. the business is doomed to failure anyway.

Christians should not be involved in the decision making processes that shape the world around them? to a certain extent, politics is a limited expectation game. that is, if you wish to become a factor, you must sacrifice.

get involved, but don't expect to see the thing work out, because it iwll never work out.

i believe moral values must be the duty of society, nto government, to build. christians should focus more on prevention of abuses of governmetn, which is not a moral structure but a power structure, than censorship and all those tasks that rightfully belong under the domain of community.

I think it is fairly obvious that the primary concern of the party platform is limitation on government (i.e. abuses of power). That is where the fundamentalism comes in to play.

Secondly, I do not believe you can draw sharp lines between community and government (specifically state/local governments). Local governmental institutions play an important role in community development.

Finally, your argument is better placed against a broad spectrum of fundamentalists (more specifically anybody on the outside of the current political spectrum), not specifically Christians. If we are to hold your logic constant we would find that no ideology based upon principle should enter the game. Every individual, group, or institution that enters politics must deal with log rolling.
of course i do not mean to give up on acting as citizens wtih religious beliefs, i merely mean that as Christians we are not political players for the politics.
i don't see any current issues off the table except perhaps overzealous censorship.

basically what i mean is that do not see politics as the only solution to problems.

And, in that you are absolutely correct. But, it is a venue for collective decision making. Therefore, Constitutionalists should partake. It would be foolish not too.

anselfir · Joined: 16 Apr 2005 Posts: 22861 Location: ZzZzZzZz

Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: IMO a true Christian stance would be to get away from politics altogether. the business is doomed to failure anyway.

Christians should not be involved in the decision making processes that shape the world around them? to a certain extent, politics is a limited expectation game. that is, if you wish to become a factor, you must sacrifice.

get involved, but don't expect to see the thing work out, because it iwll never work out.

i believe moral values must be the duty of society, nto government, to build. christians should focus more on prevention of abuses of governmetn, which is not a moral structure but a power structure, than censorship and all those tasks that rightfully belong under the domain of community.

I think it is fairly obvious that the primary concern of the party platform is limitation on government (i.e. abuses of power). That is where the fundamentalism comes in to play.

Secondly, I do not believe you can draw sharp lines between community and government (specifically state/local governments). Local governmental institutions play an important role in community development.

Finally, your argument is better placed against a broad spectrum of fundamentalists (more specifically anybody on the outside of the current political spectrum), not specifically Christians. If we are to hold your logic constant we would find that no ideology based upon principle should enter the game. Every individual, group, or institution that enters politics must deal with log rolling.
of course i do not mean to give up on acting as citizens wtih religious beliefs, i merely mean that as Christians we are not political players for the politics.
i don't see any current issues off the table except perhaps overzealous censorship.

basically what i mean is that do not see politics as the only solution to problems.

And, in that you are absolutely correct. But, it is a venue for collective decision making. Therefore, Constitutionalists should partake. It would be foolish not too. ok.

Classically Liberal · Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 2256 Location: Charleston, WV

oneofthem wrote: ok.

:hip:

anselfir · Joined: 16 Apr 2005 Posts: 22861 Location: ZzZzZzZz

Classically Liberal wrote: oneofthem wrote: ok.

:hip: :lol:

gprime · Joined: 27 Aug 2005 Posts: 25 Location: Michigan

The preamble has always bothered me. Not only am I not Christian, but at one point in my life (and very possibly once again) I was an extremely religious Jew. And while many of their policies are in line with mine, I was always saddened by the fact that their preamble is a religious one.

Akuma · Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 32 Location: East Coast

soldierofchrist wrote: Try reading a little deeper than that my friend. If you'd read this quote directly from their National Platform under the section titled, "Religious Freedom:"
Constitution Party National Platform wrote: Religious Freedom

Article I of the Bill of Rights reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Our Constitution grants no authority to the federal government either to grant or deny the religious expressions of the people in any place. Both the First and Tenth Amendments forbid such tyranny.

We call upon all branches of government to cease their attacks on the religious liberties of the people and the states, regardless of the forum in which these liberties are exercised.

We assert that any form of taxation on churches and other religious organizations is a direct and dangerous step toward state control of the church. Such intrusion is prohibited by the Constitution and must be halted.

We assert that private organizations such as the Boy Scouts of America, can determine their own membership, volunteers, and employment based on their oaths and creeds.

Then get rid of the Christ in the Parties hooplah.
You're either going to hammer people with your religion or you're not.
Having Hey-Zeus mentioned in the first three seconds says "hammer time".
Insert goose stepping storm troopers.

TwinkieDP · Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3571 Location: US

It seems that the Independent HQ leans towards Christianity even more so than any other party here:

Quote: 1. [Christian Heritage] We believe that Jesus Christ is the God of this land; that we are fundamentally a Christian nation; and that only by faith in and obedience to God shall we be preserved as a great nation.

2. [Family] We believe that families are the fundamental building blocks of a moral society; that traditional family values are the strength of our nation; and that Christian principles are the key to strong homes in America.
........
4. [Unalienable Rights] We believe that God has endowed men with certain unalienable rights, such as life, liberty and property; that these rights are guaranteed by the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution; and that it is the function of government to protect these rights.

5. [Education] We believe that Christian principles originally were the foundation of our educational system; and that they should again be made the center of American education.
What say you people?

Wallie_x · Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 538 Location: Central California

Danpt2000 wrote: What say you people?

Sounds like the 'Independent' party and 'Constitution' party have a very strong sense of what will keep our nation from falling apart from the lie of moral relativism.
But I tell you brothers and sisters, if we don't soon band together, and rise up as a political force, we maybe too late.

Chris29 · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2534 Location: Calgary, Canada

Wallie_x wrote: Danpt2000 wrote: What say you people?

Sounds like the 'Independent' party and 'Constitution' party have a very strong sense of what will keep our nation from falling apart from the lie of moral relativism.
But I tell you brothers and sisters, if we don't soon band together, and rise up as a political force, we maybe too late.

how is it that christian principles and the "traditional family" are the glue holding america together?? :roll:

Chris29 · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2534 Location: Calgary, Canada

Classically Liberal wrote: Melchior wrote: If you are not theocrats, than what is the point of having a religious preamble in the first place?

I am an agnostic, can I join the Constitution Party? If I can than I am even more confused...

The confusion rests on the fact that many do not differentiate between the institution of Christianity and Christians themselves, in regard to politics. We do not support rule through the Church or by the Church. But, we do support Christian individuals being involved in government decision making. Which, ties into a strong belief in constitutional fundamentalism and Judeo-Christian ethics.

so what you are saying is that you support Christian individuals in government as opposed to non christians. Ya that isn't promoting one religion in government :roll:. As a christian myself I despise this kind of thought. For one thing it puts a bad outlook on christianity, and enforces the ties between government actions and religious beliefs. Personally I would be deeply offended having government (which your sign states is an evil entity at best) tied with my beliefs.

AgentDucky · Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject:

Chris29 wrote: Classically Liberal wrote: Melchior wrote: If you are not theocrats, than what is the point of having a religious preamble in the first place?

I am an agnostic, can I join the Constitution Party? If I can than I am even more confused...

The confusion rests on the fact that many do not differentiate between the institution of Christianity and Christians themselves, in regard to politics. We do not support rule through the Church or by the Church. But, we do support Christian individuals being involved in government decision making. Which, ties into a strong belief in constitutional fundamentalism and Judeo-Christian ethics.

so what you are saying is that you support Christian individuals in government as opposed to non christians. Ya that isn't promoting one religion in government :roll:. As a christian myself I despise this kind of thought. For one thing it puts a bad outlook on christianity, and enforces the ties between government actions and religious beliefs. Personally I would be deeply offended having government (which your sign states is an evil entity at best) tied with my beliefs.

I think he's just saying that people often discriminate against Christians in politics because of the so called "seperation of church and state." Some think that because the moral views of Christians are derived from their faith, that Christians don't have a place in politics unless they don't follow their moral convictions, which these people misinterpret as letting their faith interfere in government. They'd rather Christians in politics be like Al Sharpton who said essentially that he's not going to stand in the way of a persons right to go to hell if they want to.