Political Crossfire Forums

[toddytodd]

Plodder wrote: Jesus to apostles "whom ever's sisn you forgive on earth are forgiven in heaven, who sins you bind will be bound in heaven."


simple why confess to god when the apostles -----> priests could forgive sins? why not just go to god? because God wanted you to go to a preist.

God wants us to go to priests to be forgiven?

[perdidochas]

Jufarius87 wrote: if you sin and are repentant, and confess your sin to God is it nessacary to admit your sin to another christian or a party that you may have hurt? scripture would be apprieciated

Not sure it's always absolutely necessary, but it's a better option.

1) Jesus gave the Apostles the ability to forgive sins. Catholics believe that ability is passed to our priests. John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

2) James 5:13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

[perdidochas]

airo wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: airo wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Since the question is clearly pointed at the sacrement of confession let me agree with John wholeheartedly and point out that Priests DO NOT FORGIVE SINS, only God can forgive sins, this is Catholic dogma.

A soul need not partake in ANY of the Catholic sacrements and still can be welcomed into heaven with a brass band, or by tradition I suppose a choir of angels.

I know you Catholic haters have a tough time with this one, but I'm afraid it is true. Of you believe this... then what's the point?

My point here is simply to dispel the commonly misunderstood belief 1. Priests forgive sins and 2. That Catholics believe unless you confess your sins to a priest you are doomed.

Both are commonly held beliefs by non-Catholics and often used by anti-Catholics as examples of unreasonable "dogma" when they are simply not true.

That is my point. Point, as in, why do you do them if you don't view them as essential to salvation?

Because they are good to do. Do you do things for God that have nothing to do with salvation? Do you have a minimalist faith that all that's important is salvation--that doing further things to strengthen your relationship with God are unnecessary?

Confession is a good thing. There is nothing about Confession that is any less good than simply confessing to God directly, because an integral part of the sacrament of Confession is examining your conscience and asking God for forgiveness. The priest basically is there to witness it, and to give you suggestions 1) how to remedy the wrongs you've done; and 2) to reassure you that you are forgiven. I'm Catholic, but I went through a rebellious phase when I was in my early 20s, and thought that Confession to a priest was useless. I would sin (as we all do), then I would ask God for forgiveness. When in my late 20s, a new very holy priest came to the parish I attended. He gave several good homilies about the sacraments including confession. I decided to try confession again. When I confessed purely in my prayers, I had a nagging doubt that I wasn't being sincere enough, etc. However, confessing to a priest, made me truly believe that I was sincere enough, and I felt truly forgiven by God.

[perdidochas]

Gilbert1908 wrote: airo wrote: John wrote: airo wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: airo wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Since the question is clearly pointed at the sacrement of confession let me agree with John wholeheartedly and point out that Priests DO NOT FORGIVE SINS, only God can forgive sins, this is Catholic dogma.

A soul need not partake in ANY of the Catholic sacrements and still can be welcomed into heaven with a brass band, or by tradition I suppose a choir of angels.

I know you Catholic haters have a tough time with this one, but I'm afraid it is true. Of you believe this... then what's the point?

My point here is simply to dispel the commonly misunderstood belief 1. Priests forgive sins and 2. That Catholics believe unless you confess your sins to a priest you are doomed.

Both are commonly held beliefs by non-Catholics and often used by anti-Catholics as examples of unreasonable "dogma" when they are simply not true.

That is my point. Point, as in, why do you do them if you don't view them as essential to salvation?


Why do you work-out, if it's not essential to survival? It's not?

In many cases, working out, or at least being physically fit, is an essential to survive. I plan on spending the rest of my life under at least one of these situations. That's why i do it. ;)

As for you, John, i'm surprised you're jumping on his bandwagon. You're the friggan poster boy for Anti-legalism.

The fundamental concept of acknowledgement and repentence of sin will find John and I in full agreement.

Catholics have the sacrement of Confession, but you actually sin again if you believe kneeling in front of some guy in robe and listing a bunch of things you did wrong in order to clean the slate off for a while is your goal. Two people going through a prescribed ritual is far different than God's presence at a moment of profound belief and regret for knowingly entering in to sin.

So are you saying that God is not present in the Confessional? That is a presumptious, arrogant thing to say.

Regardless of anything else, the Catholic Sacrament of Confession requires you to ask God for forgiveness, and to promise to try to do your absolute best to not sin again. How can that be any less than doing the same thing without another present?

Also remember, that James recommends this.

James 5:13-16

13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

[perdidochas]

connermt wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You need no man's forgiveness as long as you are sincere with your repentance/apology to the lord. Not only catholics tell priests/pastors to help them with their sin.
Quote: Not only catholics tell priests/pastors to help them with their sin. But do any other religions tell their people they need to confess to a priest/pastor?
Why do catholics HAVE to confess to a priest only to be forgiven, or can they just go to god?

Well, it's a nuanced argument. We have to if we have the opportunity.

If, for example, I choose not to go to Mass on Sunday, because it will interfere with me watching the Andy Griffith show marathon. Not attending Mass for a foolish reason is a sin. If I've asked God to forgive me, and then, while driving to confession, I get hit by a mack truck and die, then I will be forgiven. However, if on the other hand, I ask God for forgiveness, then don't go to Confession for a year, and get hit by a mack truck and die, then I probably won't. I haven't done all I can to ask God for forgiveness, in the second case. The sacraments, including confession, were instituted by Jesus for a purpose. Why else would Jesus have given the APostles the ability to forgive sins? Why else would the Apostles mention confessing?

[Gilbert1908]

perdidochas wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: airo wrote: John wrote: airo wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: airo wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Since the question is clearly pointed at the sacrement of confession let me agree with John wholeheartedly and point out that Priests DO NOT FORGIVE SINS, only God can forgive sins, this is Catholic dogma.

A soul need not partake in ANY of the Catholic sacrements and still can be welcomed into heaven with a brass band, or by tradition I suppose a choir of angels.

I know you Catholic haters have a tough time with this one, but I'm afraid it is true. Of you believe this... then what's the point?

My point here is simply to dispel the commonly misunderstood belief 1. Priests forgive sins and 2. That Catholics believe unless you confess your sins to a priest you are doomed.

Both are commonly held beliefs by non-Catholics and often used by anti-Catholics as examples of unreasonable "dogma" when they are simply not true.

That is my point. Point, as in, why do you do them if you don't view them as essential to salvation?


Why do you work-out, if it's not essential to survival? It's not?

In many cases, working out, or at least being physically fit, is an essential to survive. I plan on spending the rest of my life under at least one of these situations. That's why i do it. ;)

As for you, John, i'm surprised you're jumping on his bandwagon. You're the friggan poster boy for Anti-legalism.

The fundamental concept of acknowledgement and repentence of sin will find John and I in full agreement.

Catholics have the sacrement of Confession, but you actually sin again if you believe kneeling in front of some guy in robe and listing a bunch of things you did wrong in order to clean the slate off for a while is your goal. Two people going through a prescribed ritual is far different than God's presence at a moment of profound belief and regret for knowingly entering in to sin.

So are you saying that God is not present in the Confessional? That is a presumptious, arrogant thing to say.

Regardless of anything else, the Catholic Sacrament of Confession requires you to ask God for forgiveness, and to promise to try to do your absolute best to not sin again. How can that be any less than doing the same thing without another present?

Also remember, that James recommends this.

James 5:13-16

13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

No you misunderstood my point. My point was simply going through the motions absolves you of NOTHING. As a Catholic if I go to confession and believe that by making a list of sins spouting them off to a priest and having him provide me absolution and penance that I am free and clear, I am wrong.

I believe in the sacrement of confession, but I also believe that John's sincere confession of his sins as prays to God for strength to be a better man is heard as well.

I have seen enough of your posts to know that you know that "going" to confession is not enough, one must participate fully, believe and seek absolution in humility.

[sparsely]

Plodder wrote: Jesus to apostles "whom ever's sisn you forgive on earth are forgiven in heaven, who sins you bind will be bound in heaven."


simple why confess to god when the apostles -----> priests could forgive sins? why not just go to god? because God wanted you to go to a preist.

Man wanted you to go to a priest. The Pharisees & Saducees had the psychological monopoly among the populous on righteousness and God.
Jesus was telling the common people that these middlemen were ripping them off and spitting in the face of God while using His name to do it. They had made grace into chains through ritual and indoctrination. They thought the words were enough. They had forgotten the face of their Father.
They had created an industry of confession and sacrifice, and used guilt and conviction to drive wedges deeper among people, rather than administer the spirit of God.
Jesus' whole purpose was to make a way for everyone - regadless of religion, race, or righteousness - to know God personally.

It is our secrets and fears...the things we hide from one another, that grow like rotten spots, attracting all kinds of vermin.
Be reconciled to your brother quickly! Make amends, be friends again!
The only real sin we make is that we let things come between us and individual fear, shame, guilt, desire, whatever...drives our self-will to the injury of others.

[connermt]

psholtz wrote: connermt wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You need no man's forgiveness as long as you are sincere with your repentance/apology to the lord. Not only catholics tell priests/pastors to help them with their sin.
Quote: Not only catholics tell priests/pastors to help them with their sin. But do any other religions tell their people they need to confess to a priest/pastor?
Why do catholics HAVE to confess to a priest only to be forgiven, or can they just go to god?
You're not supposed to go to God for forgiveness.. You're supposed to first forgive others in your own heart. Then -- and only then -- will you yourself be forgiven by your Father in Heaven.

See Matthew 6:14-15 for more details..
I disagree. It can be seen as steps, first ask people, then ask God, or it can be seen as a continous type of thing: God will continue to forgive you as long as you are also forgiving to others.
As always, the Bible is open for interpertation.