Political Crossfire Forums

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13028 Location: upstate NY

Sailor Moon wrote: I only kissed like 3 girls and that was hardly kissing in the first place, and just to see if I liked it. I do like to kiss girls, but not french kissing. I didnt french any other girls, except my ex best friend, who proclaimed she was bi and she kissed me, for real.. I felt bad about it but I figured why not experiment a little and kiss back for real. Then she later, like a month later wanted to have sex. It was so stupid cause I had to drink a few just to even do it.

It was an experiment on how attracted I was to the same sex. I am VERY attracted to women, but believe me, sex is just out of the question. It was very uncomfortable and just didnt do anything for me. Even the small pleasure it brought was not worth it. I dont want to get used to that. Its not real sex. Real sex is between a man and a woman. And the two of us had "man" issues at the time, as well, since we both had recent break ups, so it explains alot.

That doesnt change my turn ons. I get off still on watching lesbian sex. I just cant do it, myself. Its unnatural. And just because someone has experiences something doesnt make them bi. Thats ridiculous. LOL! this is jut my opinion here and nothing else and this is not meant to demean you in any way. I think part of your feelings of discomfort are due to your belief in the unnaturalness of same sex. I'm not going to try to determine what it is that you like the most or prefer or anything but you have an attraction to women, you have said so yourself, you have acted upon it on more than one occasion. I cannot relate to that so I used my attraction to older women (at the time) because I didn't feel it was "natural" Why did I find women who were so much older attractive when most of my friends did not?(or at least more attractive.) I did not deny this to myself, I just went with it. The only thing I will say that I did which maybe I didn't need to do was not be open with my friends about it.The older women I was with were all in relatively good shape and probably looked a little young for their age or at least not old for their age. Now there is a big difference now because my preference for women as far as age is concerned has never changed. Now I prefer women who are my age. I can only assume that as I grow older I will start liking women who are younger than me but they will still be 35-45. Just my thoughts here.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Its not between you and I because you have so conveniently chosen to just ignore my input entirely. Therefore, any other's opinions are welcome!

Furthermore, I happen to live in one of the Gayest states in the Nation. Florida. I used to live in St Pete, which is like SUPER gay. Almost as gay as San Diego. Thats alot more gay people than Michigan, any day of the week.

St Petersburg-

http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/gayInfo.php?locIndex=8896

And to compare to San Diego:

http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/gayInfo.php?locIndex=10812

VERY close, indeedy.

Michigan. How bout Detroit? Lets try it!

http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/gayInfo.php?locIndex=21744

GEE! A little lower than the national average, even!!!!

Do you REALLY want to tell me I dont know squat? Because it looks like I lived in a community for 23 years that had about 30% more gay people than yours has.

:lol:

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Youre not talking about homosexuality. It is still natural to be with women, when you are a man. Youre not suppressing yourself from the opposite sex, and you clearly have a certain age that attracts you most. I'm the same way, with men. I like my men to be between 30 and 42. Always have. A few times have been with men that were almost 30..and I have been with a couple younger guys too.. one was recently, like a year ago, and he had just turned 21. But I have been with a 52 year old too, when I was 25. Needless to say, because I said it already.. its natural to have attraction, but its not always natural to act on it. I have heard grown men talk about young girls, from 14 and up, in a way that was sexual. Its okay for them to BE attracted,a s long as they dont act on their attraction.

See what I am saying?

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13028 Location: upstate NY

Sailor Moon wrote: Youre not talking about homosexuality. It is still natural to be with women, when you are a man. Youre not suppressing yourself from the opposite sex, and you clearly have a certain age that attracts you most. I'm the same way, with men. I like my men to be between 30 and 42. Always have. A few times have been with men that were almost 30..and I have been with a couple younger guys too.. one was recently, like a year ago, and he had just turned 21. But I have been with a 52 year old too, when I was 25. Needless to say, because I said it already.. its natural to have attraction, but its not always natural to act on it. I have heard grown men talk about young girls, from 14 and up, in a way that was sexual. Its okay for them to BE attracted,a s long as they dont act on their attraction.

See what I am saying? Yes and I did state that I cannot relate to same sex attraction and that it was easier for me to act on or accept my attraction to older women because they were still women. I was making a connection because at the time I felt that my attraction (which was actually a preference) was unnatural and I did not openly discuss it with many people. I felt that way and did not disclose my preferences due to society's perceptions. I'm not saying it is exactly the same but it is sort of a parellel.

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:29 am Post subject:

[ignore off]
Sailor Moon wrote: Do you REALLY want to tell me I dont know squat? Because it looks like I lived in a community for 23 years that had about 30% more gay people than yours has.
I don't live in Detroit.

Try these instead:

Ann Arbor, MI
Gay index: 156
Gay male index: 113
Lesbian index: 200

Grand Rapids, MI
Gay index: 124
Gay male index: 141
Lesbian index: 107

National norm: 100

All of which is meaningless anyway. Just because you live someplace that has a lot of gay people in it, that doesn't mean you're actually exposed to the inner workings of the gay community within it. For instance, when I lived in Grand Rapids it was not at all 'gay-friendly' and there was no shortage of people there who were totally clueless about the gay community living among them.

And yes, I did delete my response to Demonic Spoon about this being between the two of us, because it is a public forum after all.

Now, I will continue to monitor your responses in the thread, but I'm not going to debate you directly from this point forward - only respond to highlight the glaring holes in your arguments - like the one you made ridiculously suggesting that just by living in a place also inhabited by gay people you must know something about them.
[ignore on]

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13028 Location: upstate NY

Skeptical Mystic wrote: [ignore off]
Sailor Moon wrote: Do you REALLY want to tell me I dont know squat? Because it looks like I lived in a community for 23 years that had about 30% more gay people than yours has.
I don't live in Detroit.

Try these instead:

Ann Arbor, MI
Gay index: 156
Gay male index: 113
Lesbian index: 200

Grand Rapids, MI
Gay index: 124
Gay male index: 141
Lesbian index: 107

National norm: 100

All of which is meaningless anyway. Just because you live someplace that has a lot of gay people in it, that doesn't mean you're actually exposed to the inner workings of the gay community within it. For instance, when I lived in Grand Rapids it was not at all 'gay-friendly' and there was no shortage of people there who were totally clueless about the gay community living among them.

And yes, I did delete my response to Demonic Spoon about this being between the two of us, because it is a public forum after all.

Now, I will continue to monitor your responses in the thread, but I'm not going to debate you directly from this point forward - only respond to highlight the glaring holes in your arguments - like the one you made ridiculously suggesting that just by living in a place also inhabited by gay people you must know something about them.
[ignore on] Clap on... clap off... Sorry Skep, I'm just kidding here

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:36 am Post subject:

00timh wrote: Clap on... clap off... Sorry Skep, I'm just kidding here
:rotf:

I wish it worked like that! Thanks for making my day.

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:48 am Post subject:

Looking at the poll numbers, and seeing that 48% of the responses involve either denying the reality of those feelings and/or taking action in direct opposition to them, I don't think it's all that hard to understand why some gay people experience difficulty in figuring out their sexual orientation or pursue heterosexual relationships in spite of knowing that they have stronger feelings toward members of their own sex.

Society puts a lot of pressure on people to conform to the heterosexual norm.

Please note that I'm not saying that everyone who experiences same-sex attraction is gay, or should act on the attraction. I do think it's pretty idiotic though to expect that someone who IS gay and has accepted that difference in their sexuality should ignore it, deny themselves a same sex relationship that stands a better chance of fulfilling their needs, or to practice heterosexual behavior when they'd rather be engaging in homosexual behavior.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Funny how I am the only one who bubbled in the first response to the question.

tell them how i felt but say you didnt want a relationship.... (1)

:lol:

And I am the ignorant one... suuure..

Clap on? We'll soon see...

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 5472 Location: Fairfax, VA

Sailor Moon wrote: I know alot of heterosexuals are homophobic. I dont think its unnatural to have an attraction to someone of the same sex. Almost everyone does, at some point in their life.

Even acting on it isnt totally abnormal, and it doesnt mean youre bi or gay.. just means you acted on it.

All of us have some level (from what I understand) of attraction to people of BOTH sexes. I do think that acting on the attraction is unnatural, though.

And just for the record, I am not anti homo or homophobic myself, but I do believe that it is sacreligious, and unnatural, very much a "choice" lifestyle, rather than a "state of being", and I definately encourage people to reach out and try to connect with the opposite sex. The reasons for this, is that it seems like more of a fear of intimacy or closeness to the opposite sex, or to people in general, than a truly loving relationship, in every homosexual relationship I have witnessed.

I think you lack an understanding of the true nature of homosexuality. It has nothing to do with "reaching out to connect with the opposite sex" or intimacy issues or anything like that. Hell I'm a million more times more comfortable around women, talking to them, being close to them, confiding in them etc. than I am with men. And it isn't unnatural for me, I became attracted to boys in elementary school. I got my first crush when I was in 1st grade on a 6th grader. But currently I love my bf and I know you may think thats just confusion or a weird "choice" to avoid "true" relationships with the opposite sex but you'd be wrong. Sacreligious I could care less about, for its subjective at best and i disregard organized religion anyways. and I know you're entitled to your opinion but so am I. And my opinion is that you don't understand the depth of true homosexual love. You may have kissed some girls when angry at men and considered the possibility of being bisexual, but I doubt you were ever anything but a true heterosexual at heart. Everyone isn't like that, and to some of us our relationships with the same sex actually do mean something. And it has nothing to do with insecurity or intimacy issues with the other sex. I'm simply not interested in women like that and I've been like that since I can remember.

There are a lot of two faced, backstabbing gays, yea. Because they're people just like anyone else. There's also a lot of honest, committed, and loving gays too. Maybe you just haven't had the pleasure of befriending them.

BTW, don't feel sorry for me. I'm quite happy being gay. I was ready to kill myself though back when I was still trying to make myself heterosexual and "normal", dating women who I constantly had to disappoint because I didn't really feel anything above friendship for them. That was the most unhappy period of my life, attempting to conform to what everybody keeps telling me is "normal," "moral," and "right." But when I'm disregarding them and being true to myself I am much happier, and so is my boyfriend. And I don't really see how that affects anyone else but us, nor should it.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9082

StrangerWitCandy wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: I know alot of heterosexuals are homophobic. I dont think its unnatural to have an attraction to someone of the same sex. Almost everyone does, at some point in their life.

Even acting on it isnt totally abnormal, and it doesnt mean youre bi or gay.. just means you acted on it.

All of us have some level (from what I understand) of attraction to people of BOTH sexes. I do think that acting on the attraction is unnatural, though.

And just for the record, I am not anti homo or homophobic myself, but I do believe that it is sacreligious, and unnatural, very much a "choice" lifestyle, rather than a "state of being", and I definately encourage people to reach out and try to connect with the opposite sex. The reasons for this, is that it seems like more of a fear of intimacy or closeness to the opposite sex, or to people in general, than a truly loving relationship, in every homosexual relationship I have witnessed.

I think you lack an understanding of the true nature of homosexuality. It has nothing to do with "reaching out to connect with the opposite sex" or intimacy issues or anything like that. Hell I'm a million more times more comfortable around women, talking to them, being close to them, confiding in them etc. than I am with men. And it isn't unnatural for me, I became attracted to boys in elementary school. I got my first crush when I was in 1st grade on a 6th grader. But currently I love my bf and I know you may think thats just confusion or a weird "choice" to avoid "true" relationships with the opposite sex but you'd be wrong. Sacreligious I could care less about, for its subjective at best and i disregard organized religion anyways. and I know you're entitled to your opinion but so am I. And my opinion is that you don't understand the depth of true homosexual love. You may have kissed some girls when angry at men and considered the possibility of being bisexual, but I doubt you were ever anything but a true heterosexual at heart. Everyone isn't like that, and to some of us our relationships with the same sex actually do mean something. And it has nothing to do with insecurity or intimacy issues with the other sex. I'm simply not interested in women like that and I've been like that since I can remember.

There are a lot of two faced, backstabbing gays, yea. Because they're people just like anyone else. There's also a lot of honest, committed, and loving gays too. Maybe you just haven't had the pleasure of befriending them.

BTW, don't feel sorry for me. I'm quite happy being gay. I was ready to kill myself though back when I was still trying to make myself heterosexual and "normal", dating women who I constantly had to disappoint because I didn't really feel anything above friendship for them. That was the most unhappy period of my life, attempting to conform to what everybody keeps telling me is "normal," "moral," and "right." But when I'm disregarding them and being true to myself I am much happier, and so is my boyfriend. And I don't really see how that affects anyone else but us, nor should it.

Very well said my friend.

I am always confused when people try to tell me that I am afraid of intamacy with women, or afraid of women, because I am gay. The closest friends I have (with two exceptions) are women. Those people would be surprised how loving and intimate our relationships are, they are just not romantic.

Likewise, they fail to understand that love is not a strictly heterosexual feeling. The most heartbroken I have ever been was when my boyfriend, who I loved with all my heart and soul, left me. It was love, not some sort of attempt to cower away from women.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

I am not debating the feeling of love being a natural thing between two men.

Heres the thing I dont understand about gays. This is the one thing I really dont get. Gay people are almost always saying "I cant connect to people of the opposite sex the way I can with my own sex, and that is why I am gay".

Well, I have seen alot of straight people who dont understand the opposite sex, and dont feel like they can connect with them, also, but they dont equate their "connection" to the same sex as "gay".

Have you all ever seen pictures of "Gay day" at Disneyworld? Well, almost all of the people there are in strictly same sex groups. I dont mean couples, I mean duh, of course the couples will be mostly gay on gay day.. but the groups! There are few, and I mean VERY few photos of groups that have even one person of the opposite sex. Theyre usually groups of the same sex.

all those gay people proclaiming to be gay, some of them saying that they dont have a fear of the opposite sex, but the vast minority of pictures having groups of people with even one member of the opposite sex in them.

So tell me. Do you have any female friends that you spend quality time with, in private, alone, and on a regular basis with?

I am really curious. I really dont get this. I have known lots of people who have just "gone gay" because they got fed up with the opposite sex.. I have seen kids proclaim to be gay because of surrounding social pressure to be an active member of the "Gay community".

I really really really am curious to know why all this is.

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 5472 Location: Fairfax, VA

Sailor Moon wrote: I am not debating the feeling of love being a natural thing between two men.

Heres the thing I dont understand about gays. This is the one thing I really dont get. Gay people are almost always saying "I cant connect to people of the opposite sex the way I can with my own sex, and that is why I am gay".

Well, I have seen alot of straight people who dont understand the opposite sex, and dont feel like they can connect with them, also, but they dont equate their "connection" to the same sex as "gay".

Have you all ever seen pictures of "Gay day" at Disneyworld? Well, almost all of the people there are in strictly same sex groups. I dont mean couples, I mean duh, of course the couples will be mostly gay on gay day.. but the groups! There are few, and I mean VERY few photos of groups that have even one person of the opposite sex. Theyre usually groups of the same sex.

all those gay people proclaiming to be gay, some of them saying that they dont have a fear of the opposite sex, but the vast minority of pictures having groups of people with even one member of the opposite sex in them.

So tell me. Do you have any female friends that you spend quality time with, in private, alone, and on a regular basis with?

I am really curious. I really dont get this. I have known lots of people who have just "gone gay" because they got fed up with the opposite sex.. I have seen kids proclaim to be gay because of surrounding social pressure to be an active member of the "Gay community".

I really really really am curious to know why all this is.

the people that just "go gay" because they're fed up with the opposite sex are not really gay to begin with IMO. I don't know what kind of social pressure kids have to proclaim to be gay, I graduated from high school a few years ago and it was quite the opposite for me. I was very pressured to appear straight and "be" straight by dating girls and hiding my true feelings. This has happened to me at every school I've ever attended.

Yes! I have many more girl friends than I do guys. I'm honestly surprised you think this is uncommon or something for gay men. Haha yes I can be alone with them, actually I went to the Bahamas with ONE of them (just me and her) last month for a whole week! We had a great time.

I actually feel completely the opposite of what you say. I am so much more comfortable around women, especially upon first meeting them, than I am men. I have had male therapists and I find it hard to truly open up to them. Women I can spill my guts out to all day without a problem... have no idea why this is but its true.

I don't know about pictures you've seen, but me and a bunch of gay men I know have a plethora of girl friends. I also have a lesbian friend believe it or not!

I really don't know anything about "gay day" at disney world.

If gay people are telling you "I cant connect to people of the opposite sex the way I can with my own sex, and that is why I am gay" then they are either telling you the wrong thing (in my experience) or choosing their words poorly. My attraction to men has never had anything to do with the opposite sex. I don't know where it came from honestly, it started as an intense admiration and idolization for certain boys when I was growing up, and as I matured into puberty that developed into sexual attraction. But never at any point have I associated those feelings with anything to do with women. It's interesting because I don't even understand it... most of my life I have not really 'liked' men that much, but I became attracted to them. On the other hand I tend to overly sympathize with women's issues and feel more open and comfortable around them. But the attraction for anything more than friendship is just not there. It just doesn't exist. I can't see women in that light. I can't even put into words how vastly different my feelings are for the two sexes. I can only imagine its the same kind of attraction heterosexuals feel for the opposite sex, yet they can have close friendships with the same sex but never really feel that extra element of attraction. It's just not there.

BTW, I do know attractive women when I see them and I will even gawk at one if I think they are really something (though not on purpose lol). Its not that I'm blind to beauty of both sexes, its just an element of attraction that is simply not present in the opposite sex to me. I have kissed and had sex with women, but that extra element just wasnt there. I didn't love them or want them the way I do men. When I kiss a woman, its just a kiss. When I kiss a man (if its the right one), it is so much more.

If I ever met a woman who made me feel that extra element of attraction, I would not be afraid to act on it. But I never have felt that way, and I doubt I ever will.

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 5472 Location: Fairfax, VA

damn double post :lol:

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Wow. You sound like a really nice person, Stranger!

I bet your boyfriend is a lucky man...

I dont want to ask any more personal questions to you, about your relationships. I also want you to know, even though I dont "support" homosexuality, I accept it.

I am also sorry for all the bad feelings heterosexuals gave you. We just dont understand, I guess...

Thanks for all the info. I am going to ponder it for a while. I dont understand it, and I may never appreciate it as being natural, but I am thankful for people like you who are open enough to discuss youre homosexuality as natural and normal TO YOU.

:-D

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:30 am Post subject:

Sailor Moon wrote: So tell me. Do you have any female friends that you spend quality time with, in private, alone, and on a regular basis with?
Not at this time, but it's not because I'm uncomfortable with women. It's just that my life partner satisifes most of my needs for companionship, so I don't have the need (nor frankly the time) to spend alone with other people. Although come to think of it I was alone for about a 1/2 hour last night with a female friend who I used to work with, who came by to show off her new car. (My partner was out for night - he bowls on a league.) Before I met my life partner, this woman and I would regularly get together to watch movies, go out to dinner, etc. We play Euchre quarterly with her and another woman that I used to work with, and the last two years she has come over on Christmas Eve for dinner and a night of movie watching. We goof around, dancing together - generally just have a lot of fun, but there's nothing sexual to it for either of us.

I have had very close friendships with women in the past. In fact, just this past year I renewed a friendship with a girl I knew from high school but hadn't seen in twenty years. The only other person I keep in touch with from high school is also a close female friend. She and I lived together for about a month several years ago while she was saving up money to get her own place. Best roommate I ever had.

I also lived with a lesbian couple for about 3 months when I first moved to Grand Rapids (many years ago).

So this idea that gay men are afraid of women or can't relate to them is a misconception. Many of us have no problem relating to women as friends - we just don't connect or relate to them on a sexual basis.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Thats really interesting to know. Thank you for sharing!!!

Hey, OT, but, I love Euchre, and yahoo has it online, if you ever want to play. Of course, Euchre is far more fun in person, but hey- what can ya do, right?

Jees I cant believe it. I really really love Euchre. Dude. Its my favorite game ever. Seriously, lets definately play some night. It would be fun, even if it is online.. if you want, that is.. just pm me, k?

=)

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 5472 Location: Fairfax, VA

Sailor Moon wrote: Wow. You sound like a really nice person, Stranger!

I bet your boyfriend is a lucky man...

I dont want to ask any more personal questions to you, about your relationships. I also want you to know, even though I dont "support" homosexuality, I accept it.

I am also sorry for all the bad feelings heterosexuals gave you. We just dont understand, I guess...

Thanks for all the info. I am going to ponder it for a while. I dont understand it, and I may never appreciate it as being natural, but I am thankful for people like you who are open enough to discuss youre homosexuality as natural and normal TO YOU.

:-D

thanks! its not really that heterosexuals give me 'bad feelings' in general, although some do. but there's also a lot of gay people that have given me bad feelings as well so it goes both ways lol. i think a lot of heterosexuals can understand homosexuals, because we're really not that different (those of us that aren't really out there). but i'm glad you seem to have an open mind about the topic anyways, which is always good. and i'm happy to share my point of view with you

LDA · Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 508 Location: Raleigh, NC

I think it's fairly easy to see that humans evolved in a way that required a man (with a penis) to mate with a woman (with a vagina). I don't think this is a coincidence. A world with all gay men or all gay women would not be a very good world. I'm not here to stop you from doing what you will with a consenting person, but I'm just going to suggest that homosexuality is not a "natural" thing. This has nothing to do with supporting or not supporting homosexuality, or being a homophobe. I just think that if homosexuality was "meant to be," then two men or two woman could create a baby. Please don't talk to me about artificial insemination or adopting, because you know what I mean. Natural child birth.

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 5472 Location: Fairfax, VA

LDA wrote: I think it's fairly easy to see that humans evolved in a way that required a man (with a penis) to mate with a woman (with a vagina). I don't think this is a coincidence. A world with all gay men or all gay women would not be a very good world. I'm not here to stop you from doing what you will with a consenting person, but I'm just going to suggest that homosexuality is not a "natural" thing. This has nothing to do with supporting or not supporting homosexuality, or being a homophobe. I just think that if homosexuality was "meant to be," then two men or two woman could create a baby. Please don't talk to me about artificial insemination or adopting, because you know what I mean. Natural child birth.

it may not be the 'norm' or natural intended purpose of the sexes, but that doesn't mean its necessarily unnatural. it occurs very often in nature, so by that definition it certainly is natural. I'm not really worried about if everyone in the world was homosexual because A) there's far too little chance it would ever happen and B) because its irrelevant when considering the merit of homosexual relationships in general. its like saying someone born with no arms must be unnatural because if everyone was born like that it would be very hard to get things done. but its actually very natural that the person was born with no arms in the first place; nature decided it and that person is just different in that aspect. when it comes down to it, we're all different in ways nature determines for us, and i believe homosexuality is simply one of those ways. it occurs in nature all over the animal kingdom, therefore it is natural. is it normal? no, I don't believe it is. by definition it can't be. but abnormal shouldn't automatically be equated with "negative" (not saying you are, but some do), just as the person with no arms is abnormal but not wrong for being so because it is perfectly natural to him. as long as an abnormality doesn't somehow infringe on somebody else's rights (and I can't think of a natural instance where it would) then I see no problem in simply living and letting live in society with equal recognition and opportunity for all.

jmo