Political Crossfire Forums

George W Bush · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:56 am Post subject:

This is a good thread because it hits at something controversial to BOTH sides of sexuality.

What does sexual attraction really mean?

When your a child, much more so in boys, you have attraction to role models. For example, I wanted to be the Incredible Hulk.

You see this in older males with their sports and slapping other guys on the rear. Alot of that can be distorted into sexual attraction.

So, to answer the question: Ide first try to reason WHY I felt this way. Perhaps there was something I saw in this person that I wanted. I once felt strongly for someone who became a best friend in high school. After getting to know them, there was only friendship attraction. I was attracted to his physique. Little did I know this was what I wanted for myself till later in life when people with similar shapes became like comrades. Working towards similar goals. Being a man.

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:14 am Post subject:

George W Bush wrote: This is a good thread because it hits at something controversial to BOTH sides of sexuality.

What does sexual attraction really mean?

When your a child, much more so in boys, you have attraction to role models. For example, I wanted to be the Incredible Hulk.

You see this in older males with their sports and slapping other guys on the rear. Alot of that can be distorted into sexual attraction.

So, to answer the question: Ide first try to reason WHY I felt this way. Perhaps there was something I saw in this person that I wanted. I once felt strongly for someone who became a best friend in high school. After getting to know them, there was only friendship attraction. I was attracted to his physique. Little did I know this was what I wanted for myself till later in life when people with similar shapes became like comrades. Working towards similar goals. Being a man.
I would just point out that while the scenario you present is fairly common and can lead some people to confusion about their sexuality, it's very different from what a person who is truly homosexual goes through in the development of their sexual orientation.

One of the popular arguments put forward by those condemning homosexuality is that something went wrong during their development, such as not bonding with the parent or peers of the same gender, or - allowing one's confusion during the phase of adolescence you describe to overwhelm and interfere with their heterosexual development. It's an interesting theory, but one that holds no truth for the great majority of those who identify as homosexual. What we feel doesn't stem from a desire to possess the qualities of a particular person for ourselves. We are instead attracted at the outset to many other males for a broad range of reasons on multiple levels. The physical part of that attraction can even extend to people we don't particulary admire or may even strongly dislike for certain aspects of their personality.

Thus my suggestion that a questioning person ask themselves this question:

Is this a one-time infatuation with one specific person, and is the sexual attraction very much secondary to other factors that you like about the person?

If a person answers yes to that question, then there's a good chance that they aren't actually gay.

George W Bush · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject:

Skeptical Mystic wrote: George W Bush wrote: This is a good thread because it hits at something controversial to BOTH sides of sexuality.

What does sexual attraction really mean?

When your a child, much more so in boys, you have attraction to role models. For example, I wanted to be the Incredible Hulk.

You see this in older males with their sports and slapping other guys on the rear. Alot of that can be distorted into sexual attraction.

So, to answer the question: Ide first try to reason WHY I felt this way. Perhaps there was something I saw in this person that I wanted. I once felt strongly for someone who became a best friend in high school. After getting to know them, there was only friendship attraction. I was attracted to his physique. Little did I know this was what I wanted for myself till later in life when people with similar shapes became like comrades. Working towards similar goals. Being a man.
I would just point out that while the scenario you present is fairly common and can lead some people to confusion about their sexuality, it's very different from what a person who is truly homosexual goes through in the development of their sexual orientation.

One of the popular arguments put forward by those condemning homosexuality is that something went wrong during their development, such as not bonding with the parent or peers of the same gender, or - allowing one's confusion during the phase of adolescence you describe to overwhelm and interfere with their heterosexual development. It's an interesting theory, but one that holds no truth for the great majority of those who identify as homosexual. What we feel doesn't stem from a desire to possess the qualities of a particular person for ourselves. We are instead attracted at the outset to many other males for a broad range of reasons on multiple levels. The physical part of that attraction can even extend to people we don't particulary admire or may even strongly dislike for certain aspects of their personality.

Thus my suggestion that a questioning person ask themselves this question:

Is this a one-time infatuation with one specific person, and is the sexual attraction very much secondary to other factors that you like about the person?

If a person answers yes to that question, then there's a good chance that they aren't actually gay.

I respect that your comfortable in your orientation just as anyone else.
In fact, condeming homosexuality is counter-productive to any ideation of 'getting rid' of it.
What society needs to understand is that - yes, there are homosexuals who cant (or dont want to be) changed.
But, there's also pseudo-homosexuals who believe they are NOT homosexual.
This topic poses a point that reflects societies tendency to peg feelings of male comraderie with homosexuality.
This is beneficial to someone wondering about their identity, and not for someone comfortable in their zone of sexuality.

One thing i noticed on this board, moderators are quick to lock threads that deal with open debate of homosexual identity because society has not lost its intolerance for homosexuality. In other words, any criticism of sexuality raises hate flags.
Its got nothing to do with hate at all and has more to do with helping, identity, and maturation.
The motivation is a happy, fulfilling life - and not a band-aid, 'be us and you'll be fine' recruiting campaign.

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject:

George W Bush wrote: I respect that your comfortable in your orientation just as anyone else.
In fact, condeming homosexuality is counter-productive to any ideation of 'getting rid' of it.
What society needs to understand is that - yes, there are homosexuals who cant (or dont want to be) changed.
But, there's also pseudo-homosexuals who believe they are NOT homosexual.
This topic poses a point that reflects societies tendency to peg feelings of male comraderie with homosexuality.
This is beneficial to someone wondering about their identity, and not for someone comfortable in their zone of sexuality.

One thing i noticed on this board, moderators are quick to lock threads that deal with open debate of homosexual identity because society has not lost its intolerance for homosexuality. In other words, any criticism of sexuality raises hate flags.
Its got nothing to do with hate at all and has more to do with helping, identity, and maturation.
The motivation is a happy, fulfilling life - and not a band-aid, 'be us and you'll be fine' recruiting campaign.
Trying to sneak an argument from your locked thread into this one, I see.

Do you have any evidence to present regarding your assertion that homosexuals recruit? As far as I'm concerned, you're engaging in an unfounded denigration of an entire demographic with that statement - exactly the kind of thing that leads to thread locks.

You need to back this up with an offer of proof for us to debate or withdraw the accusation. I'm not inclined to indulge you for very long on this.

George W Bush · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject:

Skeptical Mystic wrote: George W Bush wrote: I respect that your comfortable in your orientation just as anyone else.
In fact, condeming homosexuality is counter-productive to any ideation of 'getting rid' of it.
What society needs to understand is that - yes, there are homosexuals who cant (or dont want to be) changed.
But, there's also pseudo-homosexuals who believe they are NOT homosexual.
This topic poses a point that reflects societies tendency to peg feelings of male comraderie with homosexuality.
This is beneficial to someone wondering about their identity, and not for someone comfortable in their zone of sexuality.

One thing i noticed on this board, moderators are quick to lock threads that deal with open debate of homosexual identity because society has not lost its intolerance for homosexuality. In other words, any criticism of sexuality raises hate flags.
Its got nothing to do with hate at all and has more to do with helping, identity, and maturation.
The motivation is a happy, fulfilling life - and not a band-aid, 'be us and you'll be fine' recruiting campaign.
Trying to sneak an argument from your locked thread into this one, I see.

Do you have any evidence to present regarding your assertion that homosexuals recruit? As far as I'm concerned, you're engaging in an unfounded denigration of an entire demographic with that statement - exactly the kind of thing that leads to thread locks.

You need to back this up with an offer of proof for us to debate or withdraw the accusation. I'm not inclined to indulge you for very long on this.

When I said recruit, it was in the sense that some homosexuals tell men they're gay and to just accept it when the reality is they are not gay, just confused.

Why is it so effective to tell someone questioning their identity they are gay?

to be blunt: Alot of homosexual men have psychological problems. You can deny this all you want but you know its true. In this vulnerable state of mind, its so easy to conform them to an identity they probably are not comfortable with.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:25 am Post subject:

George W Bush wrote: When I said recruit, it was in the sense that some homosexuals tell men they're gay and to just accept it when the reality is they are not gay, just confused.
Again, where is your proof?

Quote: Why is it so effective to tell someone questioning their identity they are gay?

to be blunt: Alot of homosexual men have psychological problems. You can deny this all you want but you know its true.
Again, where is your proof?

Quote: In this vulnerable state of mind, its so easy to conform them to an identity they probably are not comfortable with.
What are you saying? That it's easier to make a gay person 'gayer' because they all suffer from mental problems? What a bunch of bulls**t!

If anything, it's heterosexuals who 'recruit', trying to persuade gay men and lesbians that they aren't really gay, just need to find the right person of the opposite sex, etc. The result? You get some gay people entering into heterosexual marriages because they've been brainwashed into believing it's the right thing for them to do, or that it will 'cure' their homosexuality. Such marriages are mostly doomed to fail, creating a lot of misery for the couple involved.

I will agree that when people are first sorting out their sexuality that it's often a confusing time when they may be vulnerable to making poor choices or being unduly influenced by well-meaning but misguided persons trying to sway them one way or the other - and that applies to both gay & straight people. It has nothing to do with what you erroneously claim is a greater susceptibility among homoseuxal persons to have psychological problems. Where there is a demonstrably higher occurance, it can usually be traced to the stresses of having to deal with a society that hates us because of long-standing prejudices and bigotry - not because we're more prone to mental defect or confused about our sexuality.

What I take issue with are your false statements implying that gay people go around purposely trying to recruit the sexually confused. I would assert that this type of behavior is way more prevalent among heterosexuals trying to persuade homosexuals to turn straight than the other way around.

I am swiftly losing patience with you on this topic.

George W Bush · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:53 pm Post subject:

Skeptical Mystic wrote: George W Bush wrote: When I said recruit, it was in the sense that some homosexuals tell men they're gay and to just accept it when the reality is they are not gay, just confused.
Again, where is your proof?

Quote: Why is it so effective to tell someone questioning their identity they are gay?

to be blunt: Alot of homosexual men have psychological problems. You can deny this all you want but you know its true.
Again, where is your proof?

Quote: In this vulnerable state of mind, its so easy to conform them to an identity they probably are not comfortable with.
What are you saying? That it's easier to make a gay person 'gayer' because they all suffer from mental problems? What a bunch of bulls**t!

If anything, it's heterosexuals who 'recruit', trying to persuade gay men and lesbians that they aren't really gay, just need to find the right person of the opposite sex, etc. The result? You get some gay people entering into heterosexual marriages because they've been brainwashed into believing it's the right thing for them to do, or that it will 'cure' their homosexuality. Such marriages are mostly doomed to fail, creating a lot of misery for the couple involved.

I will agree that when people are first sorting out their sexuality that it's often a confusing time when they may be vulnerable to making poor choices or being unduly influenced by well-meaning but misguided persons trying to sway them one way or the other - and that applies to both gay & straight people. It has nothing to do with what you erroneously claim is a greater susceptibility among homoseuxal persons to have psychological problems. Where there is a demonstrably higher occurance, it can usually be traced to the stresses of having to deal with a society that hates us because of long-standing prejudices and bigotry - not because we're more prone to mental defect or confused about our sexuality.

What I take issue with are your false statements implying that gay people go around purposely trying to recruit the sexually confused. I would assert that this type of behavior is way more prevalent among heterosexuals trying to persuade homosexuals to turn straight than the other way around.

I am swiftly losing patience with you on this topic.

All or nothing thinking.
There's a subset of gay people who are so prideful about who they are, any question regarding the validity of another persons identity is met with aggressive accusations of homophobia, bigotry, etc.
You dont need to go far with PROOF. There's alot of websites who advocate for gays who strive to 'get rid of the hate' in schools - the time most young people are questioning. Theres a difference between getting rid of hate, and telling someone their uncomfortable feelings shouldnt feel uncomfortable and to just 'accept' what they feel as a fact that they are gay.

And if you want to talk about bulls**t, the homosexual community rejects reparative therapy even discouraging people from giving it a try. Why?
Are you that much more educated that you believe it cant work?

It seems we meet eye to eye on the issue of someone's need to do as they wish with their sexuality. Both sides need to butt out during this period and let the person learn for themselves and to get help if they feel they need it.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject:

George W Bush wrote: There's a subset of gay people who are so prideful about who they are, any question regarding the validity of another persons identity is met with aggressive accusations of homophobia, bigotry, etc.
You dont need to go far with PROOF. There's alot of websites who advocate for gays who strive to 'get rid of the hate' in schools - the time most young people are questioning. Theres a difference between getting rid of hate, and telling someone their uncomfortable feelings shouldnt feel uncomfortable and to just 'accept' what they feel as a fact that they are gay.
Still no offer of proof.

Quote: And if you want to talk about bulls**t, the homosexual community rejects reparative therapy even discouraging people from giving it a try. Why?
Because the aim isn't to help people who are questioning - it's to put forth the idea that all homosexuals can be 'cured' and we should't waste time on anything that acknowledges their right to self-determination on the question of their own sexuality.

Quote: Are you that much more educated that you believe it cant work?
Being gay, I know a hell of a lot more about how my sexual orientation works than some bigot who believes their religion can cure me. Can you show me a single one of these reparative therapy programs that isn't tied to some religious group?

Quote: It seems we meet eye to eye on the issue of someone's need to do as they wish with their sexuality. Both sides need to butt out during this period and let the person learn for themselves and to get help if they feel they need it.
That shouldn't be used as an excuse to put a gag order on groups that assist young people who are gay in coming to terms with the difference in their sexuality. You make it sound like the aim is to recruit people who aren't sure - a distortion of the reality of most efforts that focus on trying to make gay youth feel less isolated by the difference in their sexual orientation.

Sid · Joined: 26 Oct 2004 Posts: 4601 Location: Kansas

With the 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000(a lot more zeros)th chance, I'd ignore it and continue to think 'bout chicks.

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13009 Location: upstate NY

Sid wrote: With the 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000(a lot more zeros)th chance, I'd ignore it and continue to think 'bout chicks. Looks like you are confused about your sexuality :lol:

MrVicchio · Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Posts: 970 Location: New England...

I would personally ask myself why I haven't been sleeping well, go home and make mad passioante love to my wife and ignore the feelings/thoughts/images.

Why pursue something that can only lead to pain and suffering?

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 5453 Location: Fairfax, VA

MrVicchio wrote: I would personally ask myself why I haven't been sleeping well, go home and make mad passioante love to my wife and ignore the feelings/thoughts/images.

Why pursue something that can only lead to pain and suffering?

it hasn't lead to pain and suffering in many people, in fact it has lead to happiness. being true to your heart is the only right thing to do IMO. however, to have phony relationships with straight women is the sure path to pain and suffering for all involved

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:47 pm Post subject:

StrangerWitCandy wrote: MrVicchio wrote: I would personally ask myself why I haven't been sleeping well, go home and make mad passioante love to my wife and ignore the feelings/thoughts/images.

Why pursue something that can only lead to pain and suffering?

it hasn't lead to pain and suffering in many people, in fact it has lead to happiness. being true to your heart is the only right thing to do IMO. however, to have phony relationships with straight women is the sure path to pain and suffering for all involved

Which is why it's important to be able to distinguish between having feelings that are primarily homosexual versus those that are simply fleeting or a matter of temporary infatuation with a single person - and to sort that out before one enters into a marriage.

Charlie Man · Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 4531

I went for other.. because there are so many things that could change the situation. Like, If the other person was gay or not, or if we were friends, or if I was being coerced to, or if it went on for a long time, or if... yadda yadda yadda

I find it comical that so many people "try to shake it off" because that is merely a nice way of saying denial.

Malencontreux · Joined: 25 Sep 2004 Posts: 1762 Location: Portland.

Being confused? I think all of us gay men were confused at one point. I only finally accepted when I was gay when I actually realized I was looking for gay porn and not hetero porn on the internet.

Now about being attracted to the other sex, for me I can recognize when a girl is damn fine -- stilletos, long legs, great ass but not too big and a decent chest and great hair is so sexy -- but it doesn't turn me on. I can flirt with them, kiss them but nothing down their ( if you know what I mean ) rises.

Now if it did go up ... I'd probably be like "Woah Nelly, watcha doing bud -- Now you decide to rise up to the occassion when seeing this hot girl? Where were you when I was out clubbing?"

No, in all seriousness I'd be confused. I'd just see what it was about the girl that well yeah.

Oriden · Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 324

MrVicchio wrote: Why pursue something that can only lead to pain and suffering?
Do you mean that this situation would only lead to pain and suffering due to a portion of society's intolerance, discrimination and hatred for gays? If so, I can almost see where you're coming from - many people treat gays in an awful manner.
__________________

The scenario described is actually quite similar to one I am currently experiencing.

I'm a heterosexual (or so I think) yet I have been attracted to a few people of the same sex. Some for their personalities, others for their looks. Primarily I am attracted to members of the opposite sex.

In terms of what I've done about it: not a whole lot but questioned myself and not rushed into a relationship I wasn't ready for.

What I've come up with is that it's important to love people for who they are, not for the body parts they happen to have.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote:
Now about being attracted to the other sex, for me I can recognize when a girl is damn fine -- stilletos, long legs, great ass but not too big and a decent chest and great hair is so sexy -- but it doesn't turn me on. I can flirt with them, kiss them but nothing down their ( if you know what I mean ) rises.

Yeah, that's funny becaus I always wondered if gay men would become 'excited' during kissing etc. with women. That would strong proof of the inherent nature of sexuality as opposed to recruitments, choices and other slightly strange ideas. I never chose to be attracted to women, I just am. (oh, by the way, I'm a man). I assume the same applies to homosexuals and heterosexual women.

MetalLives2 · Joined: 09 Aug 2005 Posts: 24

if that ever happened to me. i would first go on a rampage and kill all the gays i could find for corrupting my way of life. then i would kill myself afterward. besides we all know that all gay people have aids so they shouldnt live anyway. as soon as one chooses to be gay they automatically give up their rights and become another piece of primordial ooze under my feet

mwm1331 · Joined: 31 Mar 2005 Posts: 2629

John Galt wrote: Other: Wouldn't happen.
ditto

floridaguy · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 37 Location: Florida

d357r0y3r wrote: What a hard question. I guess I would just look at heterosexual pornography until I snapped out of it, or better yet, hook up with as many girls as I could. I wouldn't put it beyond me, though. I mean, I've had some pretty sick thoughts, and I still do. I'm pretty sure everyone does. That doesnt work, at least if you are gay it wont. I tried that myself.