Political Crossfire Forums

[eXploiTeD]

For the same reason that people who oppose racism oppose Affirmative Action... or some other nonsense...

[Melchior]

eXploiTeD wrote: For the same reason that people who oppose racism oppose Affirmative Action... or some other nonsense...

... a flawed sense of equal rights.

[Lord Hargreaves]

See the Heterosexual Forum thread in Crossfire Q&A for my opposition to this forum

Melchior wrote: eXploiTeD wrote: For the same reason that people who oppose racism oppose Affirmative Action... or some other nonsense...

... a flawed sense of equal rights.

Equal rights are human rights fairly applied to everyone. They are not preferential treatment for minorities :wink:

[Melchior]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: See the Heterosexual Forum thread in Crossfire Q&A for my opposition to this forum

Melchior wrote: eXploiTeD wrote: For the same reason that people who oppose racism oppose Affirmative Action... or some other nonsense...

... a flawed sense of equal rights.

Equal rights are human rights fairly applied to everyone. They are not preferential treatment for minorities :wink:

Oh, yes, we can't let those gays have special rights. :roll:

heterosexual: I can get married, yay!

homosexual: Can I get married?

heterosexual: Who do you think you are? We don't do "preferential treatment for minorities" in this country!

homosexual: :?

[00timh]

masculinity in what form? Some people are just more naturally masculine then others, they are more comfortable with traditional masculine activities or whatever. I think this is somewhat of a loaded question. Is watching the super bowl while eating seriously unhealthy food and drinking beer actually done for homophobic reasons? Sometimes guys are just masculine *shrugs*

[PrinceJunius]

Masculinity means so many different things for so many different people. Without defining what masculinity even is, I can't begin to respond to this topic.

[Jay2014]

00timh wrote: masculinity in what form? Some people are just more naturally masculine then others, they are more comfortable with traditional masculine activities or whatever. I think this is somewhat of a loaded question. Is watching the super bowl while eating seriously unhealthy food and drinking beer actually done for homophobic reasons? Sometimes guys are just masculine *shrugs*

no, i was talking more about the projection of masculinity. not just engaging in activities that are conseidered masculine, but rather making a point that you are masculine. this comes in several forms, like calling things "gay" or calling someone a "wimp" to threats with physical violence, all to reinforce your masculine self image, thereby saying to the world that you are not gay.

how many guys do you know that would freak out (or at least be uncomfortable) if a heterosexual male friend came up and hugged him? how many girls do you know that would be uncomfortable in the same situation (w/a heterosexual female)?

[PrinceJunius]

Quote: how many guys do you know that would freak out (or at least be uncomfortable) if a heterosexual male friend came up and hugged him? how many girls do you know that would be uncomfortable in the same situation (w/a heterosexual female)?

Actually, that really depends on the culture. I can't speak for the rest of the United States, or even for the rest of Ann Arbor, but in my school, it's not unusual for guys to get that close. Hell, in my school, guys even peck each other on the cheek for fun, but that's probably more due to the fact that emo music is gaining in popularity, where it is suddenly okay for guys to be emotional and cry and other stupid stuff.

[Jay2014]

00timh wrote: masculinity in what form? Some people are just more naturally masculine then others, they are more comfortable with traditional masculine activities or whatever. I think this is somewhat of a loaded question. Is watching the super bowl while eating seriously unhealthy food and drinking beer actually done for homophobic reasons? Sometimes guys are just masculine *shrugs*

i have to disagree with part of this, its just something im nit-picky about. i dont think anyone is "naturally" masculine. look at other cultures around the world, and in many places there are radically different views of how a man should act. in each of these places, the majority of men conform to this standard. they are not "naturally" more masculine, they just become such through their unique socialization.

[F'losrix]

Jay2014 wrote: 00timh wrote: masculinity in what form? Some people are just more naturally masculine then others, they are more comfortable with traditional masculine activities or whatever. I think this is somewhat of a loaded question. Is watching the super bowl while eating seriously unhealthy food and drinking beer actually done for homophobic reasons? Sometimes guys are just masculine *shrugs*

i have to disagree with part of this, its just something im nit-picky about. i dont think anyone is "naturally" masculine. look at other cultures around the world, and in many places there are radically different views of how a man should act. in each of these places, the majority of men conform to this standard. they are not "naturally" more masculine, they just become such through their unique socialization.

True, but I think 00timh still has a valid point. Even though both types of masculine behavior are largely learned, there's still a difference between those that are undertaken to assert one's masculinity (machismo) versus merely indulging in what is traditionally masculine behavior without the factor of aggression (or where it's at least minimized to the point of being innocuous).

I don't like guys who think they're some kind of big, macho, he-man. That doesn't mean I want some crybaby wimp or a drama queen who has an emotional meltdown if he runs out of his favorite hair gel. What I look for is balance - someone who acts like a man without that being predicated on an inflated ego.

[connermt]

soldierofchrist wrote: StrangerWitCandy wrote: Lord Hargreaves wrote: whats the complication over this? If the gay community stopped shoving their sexuality down society's throat there'd be a lot less "homophobia" as a reaction.

Plus homophobia is such a stupid term, do you really think opponents of the gay rights brigade fear gay people? Screaming homophobia is like screaming "racist" over concerns about affirmative action or immigration or "sexism" to concerns of women in the military - they're just a lefty mechanism to shut down legitimate debate. To me, when a gay person cried homophobia, thats a clear a sign as any that they just lost the argument 8)

i haven't shoved my sexuality down anyone's throat. tell me how i have done so. merely by being with my boyfriend? and people misuse the terms 'racism' and 'homophobia' often, but it does not mean those things don't exist. many racists back in the day claimed they were not racist, even when they certainly were. merely ignoring the existence of bigotry might make you feel better but it is not at all realistic. homophobia exists prominently in this country, i've witnessed it over and over again first hand

interesting you haven't addressed the topic of the thread, which is homophobia as it relates to one's percieved masculinity, and instead jumped right to attacking gays for "shoving their sexuality down society's throat"
You personally have not, and that's not what he meant. He meant the gay society as a whole, has shoved their sexuality down the rest of society's throat. Have you ever seen those gay pride parades? The way they dress and act is outrageous. And if straight people were doing some of the stuff they do at those parades, they'd be jailed immediately. And I believe that the more masculine someone tries to act, the less secure they are with themselves. Now, that's not to say that all masculine guys are really just insecure. People like John Wayne, or Tommy Lee Jones are just naturally really masculine.

I know there are people 'shoving' all kinds of thigns down the throat of society. Some gay groups do it, 'preachers' standing on the street corner do it, the media does it, the gov't does it, etc. To lump all gay people in this group is ignorant.
In my city, the have a Pride Parade. It is funny to watch for a couple minutes (but I like to see people be goofy), but when the naked people start walking down the street & such - that is too much. But also, a month or so later, my city has a Do Da Parade. It is a bunch of people marching down the street in crazy & funny dress, holding signs showing support of different things, local business trying to drum up business, you name it. It seems to almost balance out the elaborate & 'in-your-face' Pride parade.
As far as masculinity goes, the people I know normally don't act over masculine. THey are pretty comfortable with themselves, for the most part. So personally I don't see that happening around me much, as far as the people I know. I have seen people do ing this & I just roll my eyes. Those guys would be the first to hit the back room & give each other H*** jobs, we all know that.

[Gryff1nd0r]

Connermt.... you really enjoy reviving dead threads, don't you? This one hasn't been touched for 7 months.

[Robin Hood]

Men tend to be masculine because they are men. The term was made up to describe a way of acting that exists mostly in the male of our species. The thread is saying that men act more like men out of fear of not being thought of as acting like men, which is absurd because men are always likely to act like men - that is what they are.

[Æ]

PrinceJunius wrote: Quote: how many guys do you know that would freak out (or at least be uncomfortable) if a heterosexual male friend came up and hugged him? how many girls do you know that would be uncomfortable in the same situation (w/a heterosexual female)?

Actually, that really depends on the culture. I can't speak for the rest of the United States, or even for the rest of Ann Arbor, but in my school, it's not unusual for guys to get that close. Hell, in my school, guys even peck each other on the cheek for fun, but that's probably more due to the fact that emo music is gaining in popularity, where it is suddenly okay for guys to be emotional and cry and other stupid stuff.
It seems to me that the women would be more comfortable. Society seems to punish men for not being 'masculine' more than it punishes women for not being 'feminine'.

[connermt]

Jay2014 wrote: im a sociology major, and, i dont know what the accepted definition of homophobia is by the LGBT community, but in sociology homophobia is a fear of being percieved to be homosexual. i read an interesting article in one of my soc. classes about masculinity as a mechinism of the homophobic to assert their heterosexuality to society. for example, it viewed the use of terms for female genetalia as insults as a way of asserting heterosexuality for oneself, while at the same time attacking the masculinity (and thereby the heterosexuality) of the person recieving the insults. any thoughts on this?

In the US, as a general rule, men need to assert their heterosexuality because men have SO many different DOS & DON'TS coming at them constantly. Women want a manly man that can cry, but not too much, as labeled as a sissy, men must understand women & when they fail, they are labeled as 'pigs', men can't have great hygene w.o fear of being labeled as sissy & now there are some groups telling guys they aren't even needed to raise a family - only their sperm is needed.
So a man's last chance to 'save face' is to put as much of his masculinity out there to be seen as possible. The only way left to do so, w/o any fear of feedback from society, is to reject homosexuality in all its forms.

"The thread is saying that men act more like men out of fear of not being thought of as acting like men, which is absurd because men are always likely to act like men - that is what they are." <-- "...men are always likely to act like men - that is what they are" that would be true IF there wasn't so much pressure on a man to be EVERYTHING to all people. If people would accept guys for being guys (which doesn't mean beating women or anything of that nature), then I think we would see more happy guys = less homophobia on their parts.

JMO

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

the arguement of "those who speak the loudest against homosexuality, are usually the ones with something to hide" is kinda the same thing that is asked here. Showing off your masculinity to cover up being gay.

It's all BS. Me refusing to cry has nothing to do with 'hiding that I'm gay' or anything like that and is an ignorant arguement when all other arguements fail.

[Enoch]

I think the idea of masculinity being used as a way to cover up homosexual feelings or homophobia may be accurate for some men. However, it is inappropriate to generalize and say that just because a man is masculine, and exhibits socially defined masculine traits, that he is homophobic or hiding his own homosexual feelings.

[George W Bush]

as far as the term 'homophobia' goes, it is interesting that its referred to as a fear of being labeled that way as opposed to a fear of actual homosexuals.
psychology relates the latter to personality disorders. that is, if you are afraid of someone who is gay, then you have a personality disorder. however, you are fine if its simply a fear of being labeled homo as this is more a case of vanity or self-conciousness.
interesting insight

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

UrielsFyre wrote: I think the idea of masculinity being used as a way to cover up homosexual feelings or homophobia may be accurate for some men. However, it is inappropriate to generalize and say that just because a man is masculine, and exhibits socially defined masculine traits, that he is homophobic or hiding his own homosexual feelings.

the hypocracy is great with that arguement, because those who clump the super masculine as homophobic, or actually gay, are the same ones in the racist threads that scream that profiling is wrong.

:roll:

homophobic is also a term used when the pro-homo runs out of arguements to an anti-homo

[Enoch]

Chocolate_New_Orleans wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: I think the idea of masculinity being used as a way to cover up homosexual feelings or homophobia may be accurate for some men. However, it is inappropriate to generalize and say that just because a man is masculine, and exhibits socially defined masculine traits, that he is homophobic or hiding his own homosexual feelings.

the hypocracy is great with that arguement, because those who clump the super masculine as homophobic, or actually gay, are the same ones in the racist threads that scream that profiling is wrong.

:roll:

I am assuming that you are not calling my post hypocritical. Because, if that is the case, there is nothing hypocritical in what I stated.

Quote: homophobic is also a term used when the pro-homo runs out of arguements to an anti-homo

By some, yes. But, you are making a generalization.