Political Crossfire Forums

[F'losrix]

A popular pizza joint in Ann Arbor has recently found itself as the focal point in the battle between the city's strong gay population and a Catholic student organization.

At issue: many establishments in the city sport rainbow decals in their storefront windows as a symbol that they support the diversity of this community and are 'gay-friendly' - meaning they don't refuse service on the suspicion that a client might be homosexual.

An inflammatory email allegedly sent by a student to the listserv of a Catholic student group encourages its members to put pressure on the Italian immigrant owners of a local pizza parlor to remove it's rainbow decal from the window. The contents of the e-mail appears below, which I have redacted myself to protect the relevant parties from any harrassment. I personally received this from the listserv for a gay student group where I work. It was posted there by one of that group's members who received it from one of the subscribers to the other student group listserv to which the original e-mail was sent. So while I can't vouch for it's authenticity, I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the member who posted it to our listserv, either.

"Dear (name of student group redacted) Members:

One of Ann Arbor's best pizza places, (name of establishment redacted), has recently put up a rainbow flag decal on its front door under pressure from local radical homosexual activists. THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!

I happened to be in town this Saturday, July 9th, and stopped to get a slice of pizza at my long-time favorite pizza joint - which is a block away from (name of student group redacted) Parish - when I noticed the large rainbow flag decal as I entered the establishment. I spoke with one of the Italian owners, (name of proprietor redacted).

(name of proprietor redacted) wouldn't go into all the details, but said that the decal went up in recent weeks under pressure from local homosexual activists. Apparently, many local homosexuals routinely come into (name of establishment redacted) after a night of doping up and carousing at the nearby "gay-friendly" club known as (name of establishment redacted)

(name of proprietor redacted) told me that he hoped he would be able to take the decal down in a couple of weeks, and said that he is open to maybe putting up a Catholic symbol on his door as well. But he isn't certain.

ACTION: CALL (phone number redacted) or
FAX a message: (fax number redacted), or
VISIT & express your OUTRAGE in person
(web address redacted)
***Open 7 days a week***


Please ask to speak with (name of proprietor redacted). (name of establishment redacted) is owned by Italian
immigrants and they are very good, hardworking people. Please be polite. They have been put under pressure by local homosexual activists.

Our job is to persuade the owners why the rainbow symbol is offensive to other patrons who are not in favor of the radical homosexual agenda. We need to convey to them how such an in-your-face, door-front symbol makes other patrons who are against an active homosexual lifestyle feel unwelcome.

Our ultimate goal is to have the owners remove this divisive rainbow decal IMMEDIATELY.

I have decided to do something about this even if it means not being able to eat ever again at my favorite pizza place because it is time to take a stand. Otherwise this type of intimidation of small business owners and their customers will never end.

Everyday people should be able to get a piece of pizza without being forced to acknowledge the radical homosexual agenda.

For the Kingdom,

(name of author redacted)
(name of student group redacted)"

So here we have a Catholic student group pressuring a local business who they claim was pressured by gay activists to stick a rainbow flag decal in their storefront window. The storeowner is in quite a pickle. If he removes the rainbow flag, he may lose the lucrative business of the gay community. If he doesn't, the Catholic students might mount a boycott.

Note especially that the student who sent this not only wants the rainbow flag removed - he wants some symbol of solidarity with Catholics put in its place.

As for being pressured by gay activists, my guess is that someone from the local community center approached them to ask if they'd consider putting the decal in their window as a symbol that they welcome gay customers. Quite possibly they were encouraged to view it as a means to drum up more business. It's pretty doubtful that they were threatened with any kind of retaliation if they chose not to - that isn't how the local gay organization here operates - there are plenty of businesses that have them, plenty that don't, and I've never heard of anyone organizing a boycott against a local business here simply because they refused to display the decal. Certainly the group enjoys the privilege of informing their membership if some business is particularly unfriendly to encourage people to think twice about patronizing them, but that's quite different from the tactics of intimidation suggested by this e-mail. If anyone is seeking to intimidate the owner of this business, it's the author of the e-mail.

So what is the middle ground, if any exists? Should business refuse decals from all groups? Stand firm in their show of support for the community's diversity? Cater to the group they view as most influential (or threatening?)

Obviously I can't provide a link for this article since it's not a mainstream news item, but I hope the mods & admins will indulge me on the matter. If they want verification, they can PM me for the unredacted version, but I won't make it available to other members.

[d357r0y3r]

That's a tough one. If he was pressured into displaying these decals, by homosexual activists - that's just not right. It's his business, he can do what he will, but it's not good for business to show a bias one way or the other. You shouldn't have to take extra measures to show that you're gay-friendly or gay-"unfriendly." I'm not even sure why ones sexuality should come up while buying a slice of pizza. I've worked at a pizza place in the past, and not once did someone come in and say "I'm gay" or "I'm straight."

[F'losrix]

d357r0y3r wrote: That's a tough one. If he was pressured into displaying these decals, by homosexual activists - that's just not right. It's his business, he can do what he will, but it's not good for business to show a bias one way or the other. You shouldn't have to take extra measures to show that you're gay-friendly or gay-"unfriendly." I'm not even sure why ones sexuality should come up while buying a slice of pizza. I've worked at a pizza place in the past, and not once did someone come in and say "I'm gay" or "I'm straight."
Some background, then:

A few years ago a local print shop in nearby Ypsilanti refused the business of a gay organization. The rainbow decals are at least in part a response to that - a show by some businesses of their solidarity with the gay community and to counter what seemed to be an unwelcoming atmosphere.

Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with you - it shouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately it is. People make assumptions about others' sexuality sometimes based on mannerisms, etc. - if you consider that 'announcing' one's sexuality, you're entitled to that opinion.

I take it you believe a business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone on whatever basis he or she pleases?

[d357r0y3r]

Skeptical Mystic wrote: d357r0y3r wrote: That's a tough one. If he was pressured into displaying these decals, by homosexual activists - that's just not right. It's his business, he can do what he will, but it's not good for business to show a bias one way or the other. You shouldn't have to take extra measures to show that you're gay-friendly or gay-"unfriendly." I'm not even sure why ones sexuality should come up while buying a slice of pizza. I've worked at a pizza place in the past, and not once did someone come in and say "I'm gay" or "I'm straight."
Some background, then:

A few years ago a local print shop in nearby Ypsilanti refused the business of a gay organization. The rainbow decals are at least in part a response to that - a show by some businesses of their solidarity with the gay community and to counter what seemed to be an unwelcoming atmosphere.

Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with you - it shouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately it is. People make assumptions about others' sexuality sometimes based on mannerisms, etc. - if you consider that 'announcing' one's sexuality, you're entitled to that opinion.

I take it you believe a business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone on whatever basis he or she pleases?

Well, I don't really agree with discrimination - I certainly wasn't saying that. Even if a person is a, "flaming homosexual," that is, overtly gay, that's no reason to refuse service. If you believe homosexuality is a sin (which is usually the objection) then you also believe that every human is a sinner, henceforth you must not offer your services to any human. This business owner would be acting out quite a contradiction, or not making much money.

That said, I do believe that an owner of a business should be able to refuse service to anyone he wants. If he doesn't like black people, he should be able to not serve them. If he doesn't like gay people, then he doesn't have to serve them. Otherwise, being an owner means much less. It's just like you can let anyone into your house, or NOT let anyone into your house.

[PrinceJunius]

That's funny, I thought all the Catholics in Ann Arbor were fairly liberal people. I know that every Catholic Church I've been to in Ann Arbor was flamingly liberal.

Seeing as how I live in Ann Arbor, I have this to say. I do appreciate when the stores put up the rainbow flags, because it means that they are gay-friendly. The only video store I go to rent movies is Liberty Street Video, because they have the rainbow flag. And then some other stores put it up too, like this jewelry store. But, it's pretty safe to assume that every store in Ann Arbor is gay-friendly, regardless of whether the store has a rainbow flag or not. There are so many gay people in Ann Arbor, refusing service to the community is a stupid idea.

So in my opinion, as an Ann Arborite, the Catholic youth group can shut up and buy their pizza in Saline. This is our town and we're not letting them have it.

[d357r0y3r]

PrinceJunius wrote: That's funny, I thought all the Catholics in Ann Arbor were fairly liberal people. I know that every Catholic Church I've been to in Ann Arbor was flamingly liberal.

Seeing as how I live in Ann Arbor, I have this to say. I do appreciate when the stores put up the rainbow flags, because it means that they are gay-friendly. The only video store I go to rent movies is Liberty Street Video, because they have the rainbow flag. And then some other stores put it up too, like this jewelry store. But, it's pretty safe to assume that every store in Ann Arbor is gay-friendly, regardless of whether the store has a rainbow flag or not. There are so many gay people in Ann Arbor, refusing service to the community is a stupid idea.

So in my opinion, as an Ann Arborite, the Catholic youth group can shut up and buy their pizza in Saline. This is our town and we're not letting them have it.

Wow, so this is a largely gay town? Did you move there because you are gay? Or you just happened to turn out like everyone else?

[PrinceJunius]

d357r0y3r wrote:

Wow, so this is a largely gay town? Did you move there because you are gay? Or you just happened to turn out like everyone else?

I have lived in Ann Arbor my entire life, so no, I didn't move here because I was gay. But as my mother likes to say, " I figured one of my kids was going to end up gay, so I decided to raise the family here."

[Valdimar]

I frequented Ann Arbor quite a bit when I lived in Toledo, which is where I grew up. I really don't think any establishment could possibly be pressured into placing up a rainbow decal considering how tolerant the town is of the GLBT community.

To the comment about moving somewhere becuase you are gay, yes, it does happen like that. I moved from NW Ohio, to Washington DC, to the San Francisco Bay area where I think I most likely will settle for life after I finish Law School. I'd rather be somewhere where I can be open about who I am and not ever feel bullied about it. I mean, I don't announce it everywhere I go, but if I am asked about having a girlfriend/wife, I will tell them it would be a boyfriend/husband instead.

[F'losrix]

Well, well, isn't this just swell - more comes to light on this, via the listserv.

Apparently that business was pressured - though I still have serious doubts that it was organized by the local center handling gay & lesbian issues - it appears to have been more of an independent effort? The story being circulated is that a cook at the pizza place was overheard by a patron making a derogatory comment about all the 'f**s' coming in after the bar closes. An apology was demanded from the owner, who refused to give one.

Apparently a small group decided to stage a little protest in front of the store - picket signs and all. So the owner put up the rainbow flag to pacify them.

If this is how things really happened, then I'm frankly appalled. I don't want to see business coerced into supporting the community. They should either do it because they want to or be free to say 'no' and deal with the loss of patrons that results.

I'll do some more poking about to see if I can get more info on the story.

[F'losrix]

PrinceJunius wrote: But, it's pretty safe to assume that every store in Ann Arbor is gay-friendly, regardless of whether the store has a rainbow flag or not.
Not really. I think you need to take off the rose-coloured glasses and realize that Ann Arbor is not as friendly nor liberal as you might think. I've lived here for 11-1/2 years - I know of whence I speak.

Quote: There are so many gay people in Ann Arbor, refusing service to the community is a stupid idea.
Maybe so, but your comments give the impression Ann Arbor is like the Castro district in San Francisco - which is definitely not true. Gay people might feel safer here than in other parts of the state, but that doesn't mean you're going to see them wandering around hand in hand.

[Sid]

PrinceJunius wrote: That's funny, I thought all the Catholics in Ann Arbor were fairly liberal people. I know that every Catholic Church I've been to in Ann Arbor was flamingly liberal.

Seeing as how I live in Ann Arbor, I have this to say. I do appreciate when the stores put up the rainbow flags, because it means that they are gay-friendly. The only video store I go to rent movies is Liberty Street Video, because they have the rainbow flag. And then some other stores put it up too, like this jewelry store. But, it's pretty safe to assume that every store in Ann Arbor is gay-friendly, regardless of whether the store has a rainbow flag or not. There are so many gay people in Ann Arbor, refusing service to the community is a stupid idea.

So in my opinion, as an Ann Arborite, the Catholic youth group can shut up and buy their pizza in Saline. This is our town and we're not letting them have it.

Wow, I thought you were against bigotry of any kind.



Anyway, I say just take down the flag, and don't put anything up but the occasional "So and so pizza half price". In fact, all stores should take down the flag, unless they intend only to cater to gay people, and only stores that intend to cater only to straight people should have some sort of heterosexual sign (Maybe not a crucifix, because it there are heterosexuals in every religion.)

[F'losrix]

d357r0y3r wrote: Wow, so this is a largely gay town? Did you move there because you are gay? Or you just happened to turn out like everyone else?
Not really. Gay people are less closeted here than in some places, but it's hardly a mostly gay town.

I moved here because at the time I wanted to stay in Michigan near my family, but I was sick of the open hatred toward gay people rampant in Grand Rapids. Ann Arbor isn't perfect, but it was the best I could do at the time.

Now that the state is becoming even less friendly (marriage amendment that also bans any form of civil recognition for gay unions, legislation being pondered to let doctors refuse to treat patients they object to on 'moral grounds'), my partner and I are thinking about leaving. We're mostly waiting to see how lawsuits pan out but we don't hold out much hope - we're pretty sure our domestic partnership benefits are going to be taken away.

Trouble is, where does one go? I'd rather not emigrate, but if it comes to that, I suppose we will.

[Protostar]

My take on the issue is this. The pizza shop should try and see who makes up the majority of their customers, homosexuals or everyone else. Then depending on who makes up the majority of their customers, they can determine who they need to cater to. Personally, I think refusing someone service just because taht said persona is a homosexual is stupid (the money isn't gay even if the person is) but if that's what they want to do, then it's their decision and their loss.

[F'losrix]

Sid wrote: Anyway, I say just take down the flag, and don't put anything up but the occasional "So and so pizza half price". In fact, all stores should take down the flag, unless they intend only to cater to gay people, and only stores that intend to cater only to straight people should have some sort of heterosexual sign (Maybe not a crucifix, because it there are heterosexuals in every religion.)
Sounds nice in theory, but it pretty much ignores the role of business in modern politics. Gay people want to have some assurance that the money they spend isn't winding up in the pocket of some fat cat who'll donate heavily to groups that fight against their rights. Likewise, if people opposed to gay rights don't want to spend their money in a gay-friendly establishment, I suppose it could be argued that the flag operates to their benefit as well - they can choose to spend their money in shops that aren't openly courting the business of the gay community.

But perhaps you're right - maybe the decals have outlived their purpose. Nowadays they're probably just as much an invitation to get a brick through your window as they once were a show of support.

[connermt]

Skeptical Mystic wrote: Sid wrote: Anyway, I say just take down the flag, and don't put anything up but the occasional "So and so pizza half price". In fact, all stores should take down the flag, unless they intend only to cater to gay people, and only stores that intend to cater only to straight people should have some sort of heterosexual sign (Maybe not a crucifix, because it there are heterosexuals in every religion.)
Sounds nice in theory, but it pretty much ignores the role of business in modern politics. Gay people want to have some assurance that the money they spend isn't winding up in the pocket of some fat cat who'll donate heavily to groups that fight against their rights. Likewise, if people opposed to gay rights don't want to spend their money in a gay-friendly establishment, I suppose it could be argued that the flag operates to their benefit as well - they can choose to spend their money in shops that aren't openly courting the business of the gay community.

But perhaps you're right - maybe the decals have outlived their purpose. Nowadays they're probably just as much an invitation to get a brick through your window as they once were a show of support.

So many companies are inter-twined any more that it's hard to know where a lot of your (hopefully) well earned $ is going. There are people against beer (as a general term) yet still take their families to Sea World or Busch Gardens, etc. Many foreign car companies are owned (wholelly or partially) by one of the Big 3. It is the world we live in. Granted some people will go to extremes to buy/not buy certains things or go to certains places, it is almost impossible not to have some portion of your $ go to an organization you don't like.
Any business owner has the right to market to whatever group they see fit. Sometimes it is a good business decision, other times it's not. But by no means should any business owner be 'pushed' into selling to a group they don't want to to appease another group, regardless of who the groups are. I am not sure if I would/should put up a flag (decal, whatever)or not. That could cost me a lot of $ & if that's my sole source of income, that's a big decision not to be taken lightly. Or, they could put up a sign showing some of the goups they support & let the people decide based upon that.