Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: So when the Messiah comes...is He going to fulfill Isaiah 53?

Wow all this fun that I missed while I was gone, good thing I looked at old posts so I can see what I missed.

Isiah 63 seems to be refering to G-d taking the Jews out of Egypt, and in that case the "angel of the His presense" although I think is better translated the messenger of His presense, and it is clearly talking about Moshe, who "spoke to G-d face to face".



Isaiah 63

8 For He said, "Surely, they are My people,
Sons who will not deal falsely "
So He became their Savior.

9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.

10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

11 Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses
Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,

12 Who caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses,
Who divided the waters before them to make for Himself an everlasting name,

13 Who led them through the depths?
Like the horse in the wilderness, they did not stumble;

14 As the cattle which go down into the valley,
The Spirit of the LORD gave them rest
So You led Your people,
To make for Yourself a glorious name.

[John]

Quote: One issue one, I agree w/ you.. It's inconcievable to me that the Creator, for whom the very largest galaxy must be nothing more than the smallest atom of his Being, could (or would, or did) choose to incarnate in a small town in Syria 2,000 years, and then proceed to kill himself all b/c Eve happened to eat the wrong apple. To presume that this is true is idolatorous and (imho) a great abomination.

If it were true...why would it be an abomination to believe that God can show so much Grace?

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: One issue one, I agree w/ you.. It's inconcievable to me that the Creator, for whom the very largest galaxy must be nothing more than the smallest atom of his Being, could (or would, or did) choose to incarnate in a small town in Syria 2,000 years, and then proceed to kill himself all b/c Eve happened to eat the wrong apple. To presume that this is true is idolatorous and (imho) a great abomination.

If it were true...why would it be an abomination to believe that God can show so much Grace?
It's not an abomination to believe that G-d shows Grace, for G-d truly *does* show Grace.. Nor does the Christian religion have any monopoly on G-d as a Gracious Being, as I'm sure that anyone on this forum who's familiar w/ the balance between Gevurah and Chesed would be quick to point out to you..

I'm just saying that G-d doesn't need to incarnate in some tiny town in Syria 2,000 years ago just to show Grace. If he did, this would imply that G-d was in some way partial to the Syrians who lived 2,000 years, which is absurd. The first rule of G-d is that G-d is no respecter of persons. The only way for G-d to impartially bestow Grace upon the Earth is if He gives *every* human being an "equal opportunity" (<- using terms very loosely here) to come to His Light. You have the same resources and means and tools and opportunity at your disposal as the Nazarene did 2,000 years ago.. if you *fail* to make use of these "talents" in a constructive way (if you bury them w/in the Earth, which is to say, bury them w/in your carnal self), then you will have noone but yourself to blame for it but yourself and you will have to answer to G-d yourself for it.

But you cannot expect anyone to do your work for you. This applies to both Good and Evil... Jesus isn't going to do your good work for you, and Satan isn't going to be around for you to blame your errors on either. The responsibility in either case, for good or evil, lies solely w/ you and the decisions you choose to make ever waking moment of your life..