Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

uzi wrote: Nah, we just don't think he came already that's all.

The messiah is going to get here make no mistake about it, you guys just seem to think he's in the habit of coming and going, coming and going...

:lol:

O.K. I'm just making fun now since you seem to think you can make generalizations about Jews.

Don't take it that way...I love the Jews.


So when the Messiah comes...is He going to fulfill Isaiah 53?

[cap'n queasy]

John wrote: uzi wrote: O.K I'll bite.

So this is part of a number of sections in Isaiah that deal with the salvation of the children of Israel. I don't really know why you chose to start with verse 8, that seems kind of arbitrary, but what the hell.

Now we see how God chose the children of Israel to be his chosen people and how he felt their suffering and freed them from bondage with his servant Moses. We see how God was angered when the people of Israel went astray and how they later remembered and yearned for the days of Moses and the time they hung out around Mount Sinai and heard God speak. (just from a superficial understanding of the text, I'm no Rabbi)
The way I understand it, this section was just a recap to make sure we're all on the same page. Or were these verses a prophecy of things to come?
It really seems to be referring to passed deeds.

Did I miss anything?

So just out of curiosity, why did you mark some words with bold? Who's 'He' supposed to be in your opinion? Which savior are we talking about here?

And it's an interesting translation:

Quote: And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.

Does that mean that God lifted and carried the children of Israel ONLY in the days of old? As in past tense? If I was trying to translate it I would write "All the days of the world". (Hebrew: KOL YEMEY OLAM) But that's just me.

Don't leave us hanging here, you post some verses and put certain words in bold, now start explaining.


Who is the "He" in these passages?


"So He became their Savior."


"In all their affliction He was afflicted"


"And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them"


I think it is necessary to at least understand who HE is before we can try and explain anything.


I think it is the Angel of the Lord.

Quote: Exodus 3:1-6 - 1 Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up." 4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." 6 He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God

It says the Angel of the Lord appeared in the burning bush and then it says God said this was Holy Ground to take off your shoes, and then Moses hid his face for He was afraid to look at God.

I believe this Angel of the Lord is the Son, Y'shua HaMashiach, the Anointed One, in His pre-incarnate form.

Obviously, it is not an normal angel. This angel said He was God.

[Duchifas]

cap'n, there are people who read these forums who are not too familiar with hebrew, so they may not have much of a clue what a yeshua hamashiach is and what you eat it with. uzi and I aren't the only ones who visit, ya know...

So perhaps for their benefit, and in the spirit of spreading the good news, maybe you should just call him Jesus?

After all, how can you spread the news efficiently if people don't understand what exactly you are referring to? Yeshua hamashiach sounds like some two giberrish hebrew words to a native english speaker. But if you say Jesus, everyone will know and catch on to the news faster, you know?

[John]

OK Uzi, here is a summation of the questions you have avoided so far…



1) Now being that we agree that Isaiah is writing about God Himself. Do you change that around when you read Isaiah 52-53?

2) When the Messiah comes...is He going to fulfill Isaiah 53?

[Mailech]

John wrote: So when the Messiah comes...is He going to fulfill Isaiah 53?

Wow all this fun that I missed while I was gone, good thing I looked at old posts so I can see what I missed.

Isiah 63 seems to be refering to G-d taking the Jews out of Egypt, and in that case the "angel of the His presense" although I think is better translated the messenger of His presense, and it is clearly talking about Moshe, who "spoke to G-d face to face".

Isiah 53 is clearly talking about the Jewish people as the suffering servants of G-d

So yes when the Messiah comes, due to the new clear knowledge of G-d, it will come to pass.

[psholtz]

Mailech wrote: Isiah 53 is clearly talking about the Jewish people as the suffering servants of G-d
imho Isaiah 53 is an eulogy that Isaiah wrote in memory of one of his associates who had been unjustly martyred. More than likely, given the context and the language used in the verse, as well as Isaiah's own stature w/in the royal court, this martyr was probably a *servant* of Isaiah himself..

At any rate, the use of the "past tense" here is a clear cluebrick that Isaiah 53 is *not* meant as a prophecy.. :wink:

[Mailech]

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: Isiah 53 is clearly talking about the Jewish people as the suffering servants of G-d
imho Isaiah 53 is an eulogy that Isaiah wrote in memory of one of his associates who had been unjustly martyred. More than likely, given the context and the language used in the verse, as well as Isaiah's own stature w/in the royal court, this martyr was probably a *servant* of Isaiah himself..

At any rate, the use of the "past tense" here is a clear cluebrick that Isaiah 53 is *not* meant as a prophecy.. :wink:

This is the fourth of four servant songs, in the earlier songs it says out explicitly that the servant is Israel. (At least that is what I heard, I have not yet had the opportunity to look it up)

There is one other gramatical issue as to why it is not talking about a single person but rather a group of people

מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

at the end of that line is the world Lamo, which means them, the word Lo means him. So it can't be talking about a single person

[Mailech]

And to show that the Jews were called Avdi, my servant, look at
Isiah
49:3
45:4
44:1,2,21
41:8

[psholtz]

Mailech wrote: There is one other gramatical issue as to why it is not talking about a single person but rather a group of people

מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

at the end of that line is the world Lamo, which means them, the word Lo means him. So it can't be talking about a single person
OK, so let me try to follow what you're saying:

* This martyr was imprisoned and judged (presumably condemned to murder)
* He was cut off from the land of the living (i.e., executed)
* Because of this, he had no issue (no generation)
* The people who judged him in this manner had transgressed (presumably, against the Will of the Lord)
* For this transgression, a plague was visited upon those very same people

I'm not following why this martyr is supposed to refer to a group of people, and not just some individual..

[Mailech]

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: There is one other gramatical issue as to why it is not talking about a single person but rather a group of people

מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

at the end of that line is the world Lamo, which means them, the word Lo means him. So it can't be talking about a single person
OK, so let me try to follow what you're saying:

* This martyr was imprisoned and judged (presumably condemned to murder)
* He was cut off from the land of the living (i.e., executed)
* Because of this, he had no issue (no generation)
* The people who judged him in this manner had transgressed (presumably, against the Will of the Lord)
* For this transgression, a plague was visited upon those very same people

I'm not following why this martyr is supposed to refer to a group of people, and not just some individual..

That doesn't make sense or follow the narative, earlier in that verse it talks about the suffering of the servant, in the next verse it talks about the suffering of the servant, why would it suddenly talk about a transgression from the will of the Lord, the whole thing is talking about the servant.

Also you look at the next verse, it says is uses the word
וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו
Again the word at the end B'Motav says "with his deaths" i.e. multiple deaths as apposed to Be'Moto, "with his death"

Also if you follow the whole narative, look at 52:14 it is refering to the kings, the gentile kings. Then the story is given from their perspective, they are the we and the our, giving their side of it.
Why then would the Jews, G-d's people, then be thrown into it? unless they are the ones being afflicted

[psholtz]

Mailech wrote: That doesn't make sense or follow the narative, earlier in that verse it talks about the suffering of the servant, in the next verse it talks about the suffering of the servant, why would it suddenly talk about a transgression from the will of the Lord, the whole thing is talking about the servant.
Well, like you pointed out, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ seems to have reference to a people who have transgressed (Isaiah's people?), and now they are being made to suffer for it.

Quote: Also you look at the next verse, it says is uses the word
וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו
Again the word at the end B'Motav says "with his deaths" i.e. multiple deaths as apposed to Be'Moto, "with his death"
Like the Poet says, a coward dies many times before his death... :wink:

Maybe he was a kinda wimpy servant?? (You'll find the precise reference in Shakespeare's Julius Ceasar, can't remember the exact line number, though.. the line is given to Ceasar, though, in the Second Act, I believe..)

Quote: Also if you follow the whole narative, look at 52:14 it is refering to the kings, the gentile kings. Then the story is given from their perspective, they are the we and the our, giving their side of it.
I think that's one verse describing the *reaction* of Gentile kings.. it does not, to my mind, indicate that the whole of Isaiah 53 is meant to be read as being spoken form the perspective of the Gentiles..

Quote: Hhy then would the Jews, G-d's people, then be thrown into it? unless they are the ones being afflicted
Here's a wild possibility: maybe b/c the Jews really *aren't* the "chosen" people of God?? (at least, not any more than any other people, race, nation or individual)... :shifty:

Bear in mind, that in this time frame (700BC), the word "Jew" had not yet been coined. The word "Jew" does not appear in the Bible until circa 500BC and the "return" from Babylon..

[John]

Quote: Again the word at the end B'Motav says "with his deaths" i.e. multiple deaths as apposed to Be'Moto, "with his death"

Maybe He dies for all the sins of all time. Just maybe His death serves as propitiation.

[John]

Quote: I'm not following why this martyr is supposed to refer to a group of people, and not just some individual..

Because it's Messianic.....anyone who says otherwise is simply in denial.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: I'm not following why this martyr is supposed to refer to a group of people, and not just some individual..

Because it's Messianic.....anyone who says otherwise is simply in denial.
That's why it's written in the past tense?? :think:

[John]

Isaiah 53
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.



How is this explained away?

[John]

Isaiah 53
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.





Why exactly are we supposed to esteem Him?

[Israel]

John wrote: Isaiah 53
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

How is this explained away?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15984&showrashi=true

Don't you love Rashi?

[John]

Israel wrote: John wrote: Isaiah 53
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

How is this explained away?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15984&showrashi=true

Don't you love Rashi?

No...please. Tell us in your own words.

[Israel]

John wrote: No...please. Tell us in your own words.
John, read what you bolded, tell me, what tense is it in?

[John]

Israel wrote: John wrote: No...please. Tell us in your own words.
John, read what you bolded, tell me, what tense is it in?


Yeah...who do you think is supposed to be reading this text?

You are. :-D