Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

What is the Jewish understanding of this text?



Isaiah 63

8 For He said, "Surely, they are My people,
Sons who will not deal falsely "
So He became their Savior.

9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.

10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

11 Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses
Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,

12 Who caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses,
Who divided the waters before them to make for Himself an everlasting name,

13 Who led them through the depths?
Like the horse in the wilderness, they did not stumble;

14 As the cattle which go down into the valley,
The Spirit of the LORD gave them rest
So You led Your people,
To make for Yourself a glorious name.

[John]

No comment?

I guess it speaks for itself. :-D

[uzi]

O.K I'll bite.

So this is part of a number of sections in Isaiah that deal with the salvation of the children of Israel. I don't really know why you chose to start with verse 8, that seems kind of arbitrary, but what the hell.

Now we see how God chose the children of Israel to be his chosen people and how he felt their suffering and freed them from bondage with his servant Moses. We see how God was angered when the people of Israel went astray and how they later remembered and yearned for the days of Moses and the time they hung out around Mount Sinai and heard God speak. (just from a superficial understanding of the text, I'm no Rabbi)
The way I understand it, this section was just a recap to make sure we're all on the same page. Or were these verses a prophecy of things to come?
It really seems to be referring to passed deeds.

Did I miss anything?

So just out of curiosity, why did you mark some words with bold? Who's 'He' supposed to be in your opinion? Which savior are we talking about here?

And it's an interesting translation:

Quote: And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.

Does that mean that God lifted and carried the children of Israel ONLY in the days of old? As in past tense? If I was trying to translate it I would write "All the days of the world". (Hebrew: KOL YEMEY OLAM) But that's just me.

Don't leave us hanging here, you post some verses and put certain words in bold, now start explaining.

[psholtz]

What do guys think about the idea that Isaiah 40-66 was written by some dude other than Isaiah himself (like, by someone during the Babyloian Exile?)

[uzi]

I dunno.

What do you think it means? And some link that supports this hypothesis would be very helpful and much appreciated.

[Duchifas]

psholtz wrote: What do guys think about the idea that Isaiah 40-66 was written by some dude other than Isaiah himself (like, by someone during the Babyloian Exile?)

I don't think any of Isaiah was recorded by Isaiah himself.

[John]

uzi wrote: O.K I'll bite.

So this is part of a number of sections in Isaiah that deal with the salvation of the children of Israel. I don't really know why you chose to start with verse 8, that seems kind of arbitrary, but what the hell.

Now we see how God chose the children of Israel to be his chosen people and how he felt their suffering and freed them from bondage with his servant Moses. We see how God was angered when the people of Israel went astray and how they later remembered and yearned for the days of Moses and the time they hung out around Mount Sinai and heard God speak. (just from a superficial understanding of the text, I'm no Rabbi)
The way I understand it, this section was just a recap to make sure we're all on the same page. Or were these verses a prophecy of things to come?
It really seems to be referring to passed deeds.

Did I miss anything?

So just out of curiosity, why did you mark some words with bold? Who's 'He' supposed to be in your opinion? Which savior are we talking about here?

And it's an interesting translation:

Quote: And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.

Does that mean that God lifted and carried the children of Israel ONLY in the days of old? As in past tense? If I was trying to translate it I would write "All the days of the world". (Hebrew: KOL YEMEY OLAM) But that's just me.

Don't leave us hanging here, you post some verses and put certain words in bold, now start explaining.


Who is the "He" in these passages?


"So He became their Savior."


"In all their affliction He was afflicted"


"And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them"


I think it is necessary to at least understand who HE is before we can try and explain anything.

[John]

psholtz wrote: What do guys think about the idea that Isaiah 40-66 was written by some dude other than Isaiah himself (like, by someone during the Babyloian Exile?)


Read John 12:38-41. Verse 40 quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 (from the first section of the book of Isaiah). Verse 38 quotes Isaiah 53:1 (from the last section of the book of Isaiah) Jesus Himself credits both these to Isaiah. So if you "believe" in Jesus like you say you do, then that should be proof enough for you. If you don't...then you have bigger problems than the book of Isaiah.

Here's a good article about this subject.

[uzi]

John wrote: uzi wrote: O.K I'll bite.

So this is part of a number of sections in Isaiah that deal with the salvation of the children of Israel. I don't really know why you chose to start with verse 8, that seems kind of arbitrary, but what the hell.

Now we see how God chose the children of Israel to be his chosen people and how he felt their suffering and freed them from bondage with his servant Moses. We see how God was angered when the people of Israel went astray and how they later remembered and yearned for the days of Moses and the time they hung out around Mount Sinai and heard God speak. (just from a superficial understanding of the text, I'm no Rabbi)
The way I understand it, this section was just a recap to make sure we're all on the same page. Or were these verses a prophecy of things to come?
It really seems to be referring to passed deeds.

Did I miss anything?

So just out of curiosity, why did you mark some words with bold? Who's 'He' supposed to be in your opinion? Which savior are we talking about here?

And it's an interesting translation:

Quote: And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.

Does that mean that God lifted and carried the children of Israel ONLY in the days of old? As in past tense? If I was trying to translate it I would write "All the days of the world". (Hebrew: KOL YEMEY OLAM) But that's just me.

Don't leave us hanging here, you post some verses and put certain words in bold, now start explaining.


Who is the "He" in these passages?


"So He became their Savior."


"In all their affliction He was afflicted"


"And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them"


I think it is necessary to at least understand who HE is before we can try and explain anything.

I think I made it clear that I at least believe I understand who 'He' is in the Hebrew text. I just wanted to hear your interpretation. Come on, explain to us your understanding of the text. You started this thread, now you don't want to express your views? :?

And explain why you started with verse 8 and why you saw fit to mark in bold certain words. If you're not going to tell us your opinion, why start a thread?

[John]

Uzi wrote: I think I made it clear that I at least believe I understand who 'He' is in the Hebrew text. I just wanted to hear your interpretation. Come on, explain to us your understanding of the text. You started this thread, now you don't want to express your views?

Well, I wasn't sure. Are you saying that "He" is the people of Israel?

Wouldn't that put them on the same level as God? Are you guys your own Savior and God?




Quote:
And explain why you started with verse 8 and why you saw fit to mark in bold certain words. If you're not going to tell us your opinion, why start a thread?

I started with verse 8 because it's the part I wanted us to look at and posting the whole chapter would have been a little over whelming.

But since you bring it up...let's look at it:



1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength?
"It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
3 "I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
4 "For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
5 "I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
6 "I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."
God's Ancient Mercies Recalled

7 I shall make mention of the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, the praises of the LORD,
According to all that the LORD has granted us,
And the great goodness toward the house of Israel,
Which He has granted them according to His compassion
And according to the abundance of His lovingkindnesses.



So let me ask you again....Who do you think "HE" is? Is it Israel or God?

[uzi]

Come on!!!

If you have difficulty understanding my first post, just say so, I'd be happy to clarify.

Quote: So this is part of a number of sections in Isaiah that deal with the salvation of the children of Israel. I don't really know why you chose to start with verse 8, that seems kind of arbitrary, but what the hell.

Now we see how God chose the children of Israel to be his chosen people and how he felt their suffering and freed them from bondage with his servant Moses. We see how God was angered when the people of Israel went astray and how they later remembered and yearned for the days of Moses and the time they hung out around Mount Sinai and heard God speak. (just from a superficial understanding of the text, I'm no Rabbi)


This section speaks about God and God saving the children of Israel, God raising and keeping the children of Israel, God freeing the children of Israel from bondage with his servant Moses.

So who do you think I meant? God of course! I believe that 'He' refers to God. You know the God that brought the Israelites out of Egypt.

Now start explaining why you marked certain words in bold and who you think 'He' is, because I know you're dying to tell us all what's the 'true' meaning of this section.

We'll deal with the other verses after you explain your views about that first part.

[John]

Quote: So who do you think I meant? God of course! I believe that 'He' refers to God. You know the God that brought the Israelites out of Egypt.


Great! :-D I agree. It's aways good to be on the same page, at least on the basics. That the "He" being spoken of here is in fact God Almighty.

Since we both agree on this, please tell me what you think of what is revealed in verse nine.....

"And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them"

[uzi]

John wrote: Quote: So who do you think I meant? God of course! I believe that 'He' refers to God. You know the God that brought the Israelites out of Egypt.


Great! :-D I agree. It's aways good to be on the same page, at least on the basics. That the "He" being spoken of here is in fact God Almighty.

Since we both agree on this, please tell me what you think of what is revealed in verse nine.....

"And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them"

I already answered that, come on, get on with it. I'm afraid my patience is not without limits...

I know you're dying to tell us, so what's with all the games. If you have any more questions go back to my earlier posts, it's all there.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Jesus Himself credits both these to Isaiah. So if you "believe" in Jesus like you say you do, then that should be proof enough for you. If you don't...then you have bigger problems than the book of Isaiah.
I guess you never got as far as John 14:12, the part where Jesus says:

Quote: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, these works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do.."

-- John 14:12
Jesus, of course, did not have the benefit of using computer technology to do Biblical exegesis.. we, of course, do ... so of course we're able to see things in Scripture that it would have been impossible for Jesus to see 2,000 years ago. Greater works than these (<- i.e., those of Jesus) shall we be doing, for we believe on His Name .. :wink:

[John]

uzi wrote: John wrote: Quote: So who do you think I meant? God of course! I believe that 'He' refers to God. You know the God that brought the Israelites out of Egypt.


Great! :-D I agree. It's aways good to be on the same page, at least on the basics. That the "He" being spoken of here is in fact God Almighty.

Since we both agree on this, please tell me what you think of what is revealed in verse nine.....

"And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them"

I already answered that, come on, get on with it. I'm afraid my patience is not without limits...

I know you're dying to tell us, so what's with all the games. If you have any more questions go back to my earlier posts, it's all there.

I guess I don't understand your explanation of "the angel of His presence"...can you explain that again? Do you believe it is referring to a messenger that is the actual presence of God?

I'm not sure what you want me to get on with, and I don't see any reason to rush through examining these texts.

Now being that we a agree that Isaiah is writing about God Himself. Do you change that around when you read Isaiah 52-53?

Is this the very same "angel of His presence" as we see expressed in chapter 63?



Isaiah 52
13 Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
14 Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men.
15 Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

[uzi]

Now, who's in a rush going through these verses???

You haven't even explained how you understand the first part you posted as I was patient enough to do in my first post, now you come up with new questions concerning other chapters.

This is going nowhere. Either you give me a brief explanation of your understanding of that first part you posted, or I'm afraid this is going to be a very short discussion.

An angel usually refers to a servant of God.

You haven't answered any of my questions, go back to my first post and then the ones after that and be so kind as to share with us your views.

Why all these games? Do you want to have a serious discussion or not?
Why is it so difficult sharing your interpretation of that first section you posted? (and perhaps answering my questions)

[John]

uzi wrote: Now, who's in a rush going through these verses???

You haven't even explained how you understand the first part you posted as I was patient enough to do in my first post, now you come up with new questions concerning other chapters.

This is going nowhere. Either you give me a brief explanation of your understanding of that first part you posted, or I'm afraid this is going to be a very short discussion.

An angel usually refers to a servant of God.

You haven't answered any of my questions, go back to my first post and then the ones after that and be so kind as to share with us your views.

Why all these games? Do you want to have a serious discussion or not?
Why is it so difficult sharing your interpretation of that first section you posted? (and perhaps answering my questions)

I agree with most of your explanation of chapter 63. I believe it is a reminder of what God had done and how it will be reflected in what He was going and IS going to do. I believe we agree on this point an can move on to the rest of the book where the same language is used. I believe that looking at the rest of the book is necessary in fully understanding 63.

So who would the servant of His presence be? Messiah?

[uzi]

I don't know, but I have a feeling you're going to tell me.

(I guess you didn't have time to go over my questions...)

[John]

uzi wrote: I don't know, but I have a feeling you're going to tell me.

(I guess you didn't have time to go over my questions...)

No...I'm not gonna come right out and tell you anything. I just want to really look at the scriptures with you guys.

I guess you're taking about the: "Which savior are we talking about here? "

I believe it's the Savior of mankind, the Messiah. The One that the Jews were supposed to be the "light to the world" about, but instead tried to keep Him to themselves.

[uzi]

Nah, we just don't think he came already that's all.

The messiah is going to get here make no mistake about it, you guys just seem to think he's in the habit of coming and going, coming and going...

:lol:

O.K. I'm just making fun now since you seem to think you can make generalizations about Jews.