Political Crossfire Forums

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote:
Learn Ju Jutsu and within a year or two you'll be able to handle anyone whose stupid enough to hold a weapon that close to you. What's even better is that you can use it even if someone has the drop on you, (in fact, it's even easier if you have your hands up) unlike a situation were you are depending on a concealed weapon for you're own self defence.......

The reason why martial arts were invented was because the emperor banned weapons, and so the people, for defence against the emperor made martial arts, guns are a far better defence especially for the old and weak. Why don't we just keep guns legal?

thundertaker · Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject:

Reason wrote: Quote:
Learn Ju Jutsu and within a year or two you'll be able to handle anyone whose stupid enough to hold a weapon that close to you. What's even better is that you can use it even if someone has the drop on you, (in fact, it's even easier if you have your hands up) unlike a situation were you are depending on a concealed weapon for you're own self defence.......

The reason why martial arts were invented was because the emperor banned weapons, and so the people, for defence against the emperor made martial arts, guns are a far better defence especially for the old and weak. Why don't we just keep guns legal?

They weren't invented to defend 'against the emperor' but to defend against bandits, and for times when they were caught unarmed. The best part about learning a martial art is that once you have learned it you cannot be disarmed. You are always 'armed' wherever you go. And when you have done it for a while, it doesn't matter if you are 'old' or 'weak' if you know the technique, you can leave a strapping 20 stone 6 footer who tried to mug you screaming in agony on the floor.....:twisted:

This was illustrated to me when I went to the Jitsu Nationals in Birmingham last week and saw Sensei 'Scary' Mary Bishop, a petite woman who I'm not sure reaches even 4ft in height, and is the smallest Jitsu black-belt in the world, tear through a gauntlet of people more than twice her size!

However, with regards to american gun laws, I would say that because of the widespread availability of guns, (there are more guns than people in the US), banning them would be a very bad idea, as the criminals are already well-armed and it makes no sense to disarm ordinary citizens.
As for Britain, I favour at the very least very stringent safeguards on the ownership of guns, and would certainly not like to flood Britain with guns. Guns are capable of terrible slaughter in the wrong hands. They may not kill people of themselves, but they can make it a lot easier to kill more people more quickly than you're common or garden blunt object or knife.
We have a relatively low murder rate compared to the US, and gun crime is rare (recent events in Bradford notwithstanding). This would change if every Tom, Dick or Harry could pick up a gun at his local TESCO branch, and the murder rate would rocket, and so would the incidence of atrocities committed by crazy people like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.
What makes sense in Britain would not make sense in America, I hope people can understand that.......

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: I favour at the very least very stringent safeguards on the ownership of guns,

If you don't want any guns, then don't buy any. You don't need them banned.

Quote: nd would certainly not like to flood Britain with guns.

Britain is full of guns, and two types of people have them....

Quote: Guns are capable of terrible slaughter in the wrong hands.

...these two types of people are the agents of the state, and the criminals, these are the two most dangerous types of people as opposed to the only other - laws abiding citizens - the only unarmed people in Britain.
Quote:
but they can make it a lot easier to kill more people more quickly than you're common or garden blunt object or knife.

There's a thug and a grandma in a house, the thug attacks the grandma. Are the grandma's chances better if both are armed with guns (she could wait round the corner and blow the thug away) or if they are both unarmed?

Quote: We have a relatively low murder rate compared to the US, and gun crime is rare (recent events in Bradford notwithstanding). This would change if every Tom, Dick or Harry could pick up a gun at his local TESCO branch, and the murder rate would rocket, and so would the incidence of atrocities committed by crazy people like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.

Every adult male in Switzerland must have guns, and damn powerfull ones - by law. They must keep them in good condition and know how to use them properly. They have much lower crime than Britain, and far lower murder rates, and gun crimes.

America's problems mostly stem from their strict enforcement of drug prohibitions. Their guns deaths are almost almost from gang warfare, perpertrated by gangsters who wouldn't exist if drugs were legal. We avoid the full effect of such an illiberal policy in Europe by barely enforcing it.

France has a far higher crime rate than the US anyway.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10835 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Quote: That's just what we need, more guns. That way, every violent criminal won't just stab you or beat you up, or even punch you in the face, they'll shoot you instead. Blow your brains out, just for the fun of it. I can see how that'll solve the problem of *violent* crime- why have a flick-knife when you can have an uzi?
Which has higher crime rates?
Anti-gun Washington DC
Pro-Gun Florida

Show me where crimes rates went down in DC, oh wait, they shot up 200% after the handgun ban was passed.

Quote: The "socialist delusion" the people of Britian are living was caused by a raging lunatic, who walked straight into a school for kids aged 4-10 and killed an entire classroom full of people---all of them innocent human beings. So the next time you go running your mouth off with your overly opinionated, ideological drivel, try to remember the reasons for making Britain a safer place---which is exactly what it is, now that handguns have been banned.
Can you show me a stat for either the UK or US where a majority of gun owners are criminals? Or where guns are the highest death rates?

~~~~

Quote: As for Britain, I favour at the very least very stringent safeguards on the ownership of guns, and would certainly not like to flood Britain with guns.
Knife crime has gone up in the UK, so shall those be banned too?

Quote: Guns are capable of terrible slaughter in the wrong hands. They may not kill people of themselves, but they can make it a lot easier to kill more people more quickly than you're common or garden blunt object or knife.
A vast mority of guns are used for legal purposes.

Quote: We have a relatively low murder rate compared to the US, and gun crime is rare (recent events in Bradford notwithstanding). This would change if every Tom, Dick or Harry could pick up a gun at his local TESCO branch, and the murder rate would rocket, and so would the incidence of atrocities committed by crazy people like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.
What makes sense in Britain would not make sense in America, I hope people can understand that.......
Guns my be banned, but there is still gun crime. Knife crime has gone through the roof.

Red Flag · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:41 am Post subject:

Isn't Don Quixote a Socialist? :?

thundertaker · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:08 am Post subject:

Quote: Can you show me a stat for either the UK or US where a majority of gun owners are criminals? Or where guns are the highest death rates?

Not really relevent. If legal gun ownership increased with the increased availablity of guns in the shops, so would the the incidence of illegal gun ownership, as many of those guns would eventually end up in the wrong hands. As it stands at the moment, it is extremely difficult for your average mugger to get hold of a gun here in Britain. Britain is different from the US, illegal guns are nowhere near as readily available as they are in the states. If I was american, I would support the 2nd amendment to defend myself against the multitude of criminals out there who are armed to the teeth, but Britain is different to america, we do not have a gun culture. Even if gun laws were as liberal as they are in the states, people would not rush out to buy them, but it would be easier for the ne'er do wells to get hold of them.

Quote:
Knife crime has gone up in the UK, so shall those be banned too

It would be a bit silly to do this, as knives are indispensible day to day for cooking. And they are a fairly crude implement that is easy to manufacture, whereas guns are a more complex machine, and illegal gun factories are more easily discovered.

Quote: There's a thug and a grandma in a house, the thug attacks the grandma. Are the grandma's chances better if both are armed with guns (she could wait round the corner and blow the thug away) or if they are both unarmed?

You do realise that most houses in the UK are either terraced or semi-detatched don't you? I the British people would appreciate living in a country were they are at risk of being hit by bullets fired through the wall by nervous pensioners who've heard a creak on the stairs in the middle of the night.
Besides, shotguns are legal in this country. If people really wanted a weapon for home defence, they would apply for a shotgun cetificate and get a shotgun. They wouldn't wait until parliament passed a bill legalising Uzis and semi-automatic desert-eagles........

JDnCoke · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 1153 Location: Oxford, Queen's

I won't get into this debate either, its a simple case of here or there, BUT, Americans, tell me why you think you need guns? Why, for the past 3 centuries of your existence do you constantly 'fear' that something is out 'there' to 'get' you?

Is it just a hyper-complex condition of agorophobia where by the sheer size of the US has just warped your average persons mind?

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Is it just a hyper-complex condition of agorophobia where by the sheer size of the US has just warped your average persons mind?

It could be sense of self-responsibility that comes from being citizens, not subjects and froma respect for liberty.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6787 Location: Ohio

JDnCoke wrote: I won't get into this debate either, its a simple case of here or there, BUT, Americans, tell me why you think you need guns? Why, for the past 3 centuries of your existence do you constantly 'fear' that something is out 'there' to 'get' you?

Is it just a hyper-complex condition of agorophobia where by the sheer size of the US has just warped your average persons mind?

1) Personal protection

2) Protection against tyrannical government. The American REvolution was started by farmers with guns, not by any sort of army.

3) The fact that it lowers crime

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10835 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Quote: Not really relevent. If legal gun ownership increased with the increased availablity of guns in the shops, so would the the incidence of illegal gun ownership, as many of those guns would eventually end up in the wrong hands. As it stands at the moment, it is extremely difficult for your average mugger to get hold of a gun here in Britain. Britain is different from the US, illegal guns are nowhere near as readily available as they are in the states. If I was american, I would support the 2nd amendment to defend myself against the multitude of criminals out there who are armed to the teeth, but Britain is different to america, we do not have a gun culture. Even if gun laws were as liberal as they are in the states, people would not rush out to buy them, but it would be easier for the ne'er do wells to get hold of them.
You are 12 times more likely to be mugged in London than in New York City.
Still, only a very, very, very, very, small number of the guns in the US or the UK were used in crimes. Hardly a reason to ban them.

Quote: It would be a bit silly to do this, as knives are indispensible day to day for cooking. And they are a fairly crude implement that is easy to manufacture, whereas guns are a more complex machine, and illegal gun factories are more easily discovered.
But what abount pointy knives, you can still cook with a blunt knife, so the pointy ones should be banned.
Banning weapons does not work. You guys still have gun crime, you guys had low gun crime even before the guns were banned.

Quote: You do realise that most houses in the UK are either terraced or semi-detatched don't you? I the British people would appreciate living in a country were they are at risk of being hit by bullets fired through the wall by nervous pensioners who've heard a creak on the stairs in the middle of the night.
Scary thought, yes, likely? No. The chances of the bullet acually hitting you are extremely low.

Quote: Besides, shotguns are legal in this country. If people really wanted a weapon for home defence, they would apply for a shotgun cetificate and get a shotgun. They wouldn't wait until parliament passed a bill legalising Uzis and semi-automatic desert-eagles........
Why should anyone ask for permission to defend themselves?
Tell me, which is more dangerous and has more power,
Shotgun
Desert Eagle

~~~~

Quote: won't get into this debate either, its a simple case of here or there, BUT, Americans, tell me why you think you need guns? Why, for the past 3 centuries of your existence do you constantly 'fear' that something is out 'there' to 'get' you?
Criminals breaking into your house and harming you and your family.

thundertaker · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject:

Quote: You are 12 times more likely to be mugged in London than in New York City.
Still, only a very, very, very, very, small number of the guns in the US or the UK were used in crimes. Hardly a reason to ban them.

I thought NYC was known for it's tough anti-gun laws? Perhaps there are other factors at work here other than people generally not walking around packing heat?

Quote: But what abount pointy knives, you can still cook with a blunt knife, so the pointy ones should be banned.
Banning weapons does not work. You guys still have gun crime, you guys had low gun crime even before the guns were banned.

Gun crime is still absurdly low compared to the states. Flooding the country with guns would give muggers easier access to guns. Would I rather face a mugger armed with a knife or a gun? I think the former.....

Quote: Scary thought, yes, likely? No. The chances of the bullet acually hitting you are extremely low.

It has happened. Would you be comfortable with the idea of bullets flying through your wall, even if the chances of being hit are 'extremely low'?

Quote: Why should anyone ask for permission to defend themselves?
Tell me, which is more dangerous and has more power,
Shotgun
Desert Eagle

Who is asking for permission to defend themselves? If you can show you are sane and have no criminal record, and can store a gun safely, you could keep a shotgun. But you have to understand that people in this country do not have the same attitude towards guns as americans. Most people would not arm themselves to the teeth even if they were legally available, but the criminals would have no hesitation in bombing themselves up like 'Ahh-nuld' and people would die, the murder rate would skyrocket. Crime may be higher generally in Britain, but the murder rate is still considerably lower than in the states. Better to be a robbery or burglar victim than a murder victim.....

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote:
Gun crime is still absurdly low compared to the states. Flooding the country with guns would give muggers easier access to guns. Would I rather face a mugger armed with a knife or a gun? I think the former.....

Swiss gun crime is absurdly low compared to Britain - every adult male must by law own a gun.
Quote:
It has happened. Would you be comfortable with the idea of bullets flying through your wall, even if the chances of being hit are 'extremely low'?

I originally thought your example of bullets going through the walls was a joke. A bullet would pass through the walls that seperate houses.

Quote: If you can show you are sane and have no criminal record, and can store a gun safely, you could keep a shotgun.

it takes ages, and you generally need to be a farmer or similar, plus pistols are banned.

Quote: Most people would not arm themselves to the teeth even if they were legally available

That's their decision, and should be respected. So should the choice to own a gun.

thundertaker · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject:

Quote: Swiss gun crime is absurdly low compared to Britain - every adult male must by law own a gun.

Doesn't it occur to you that there might be other factors that account for that? Maybe they don't have the same problems with chavscum that we do over here. Argh!! The thought all the scallies in the area being able to pick up a gun as easily as a pint of beer makes my flesh creep.....

Quote: it takes ages, and you generally need to be a farmer or similar, plus pistols are banned.

I don't mind law-abiding people having guns, as long as they are sane and have no criminal record and have to go through stringent background checks to ensure they are responsible enough to keep a gun. I would like to make it pretty difficult to get a gun in this way in order to prevent as many of them as possible falling into the wrong hands. How many would be alive today if they had been more thorough in investigating Thos Hamiliton's background as a paedophile before he unleashed his vengeance upon a class full of receptioners?

Quote: That's their decision, and should be respected. So should the choice to own a gun.

See above.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote:
Doesn't it occur to you that there might be other factors that account for that? Maybe they don't have the same problems with chavscum that we do over here. Argh!! The thought all the scallies in the area being able to pick up a gun as easily as a pint of beer makes my flesh creep.....

Almost certainly there are other factors, like a smaller government. I just brought that up to demonstrate that your use of the US-UK comparison to state that legal guns means more gun crime, is not correct.

Yes that image is horrifying, but maybe if they were allowed a greater degree of freedom they would take ona greater responsibility. Imagine no more scallies, because they've decided that individual responsibility is where it's at :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote: I don't mind law-abiding people having guns, as long as they are sane and have no criminal record and have to go through stringent background checks to ensure they are responsible enough to keep a gun.

Sure a criminal record, or at least a history of violent or gun related crime would bar you from gun ownership but that check takes seconds....what other checks do you have in mind.

thundertaker · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject:

Quote: Sure a criminal record, or at least a history of violent or gun related crime would bar you from gun ownership but that check takes seconds....what other checks do you have in mind.

No history of mental illness and regular checks every 6-12 months to see if the firearm they purchased is still in their possesion, to diminish the possibility of them selling them on to less salubrious individuals for a profit......

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: No history of mental illness and regular checks every 6-12 months to see if the firearm they purchased is still in their possesion, to diminish the possibility of them selling them on to less salubrious individuals for a profit......

The mental illness part is very dangerous indeed. Having one's rights taken because of a history of mental illness is a little scary, especially since definitions of mental illness vary and control over the definitive diagnosis can be abused horrifically.

I actually quite like the second point, it's clever. I don't agree with it on principle, but it seems like a nice compromise. On the other hand it might be useless because people could report their weapon stolen, or they could rent it out. It might be pointless because when a gun is used in a crime, it's already traceable (can someone who knows more about this explain why, you see it in all the films and I have a rought understanding).

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10835 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Quote: I thought NYC was known for it's tough anti-gun laws? Perhaps there are other factors at work here other than people generally not walking around packing heat?
The gun laws are tough, but not as bad as Britain.

Quote: Gun crime is still absurdly low compared to the states. Flooding the country with guns would give muggers easier access to guns. Would I rather face a mugger armed with a knife or a gun? I think the former.....
Either way, they will still get guns. Why not arm the law abiding population instead of punishing everyone ofr the action of a select few?

Quote: It has happened. Would you be comfortable with the idea of bullets flying through your wall, even if the chances of being hit are 'extremely low'?
:lol: I forgot the :P emoticon. :wink:

Quote: Who is asking for permission to defend themselves? If you can show you are sane and have no criminal record, and can store a gun safely, you could keep a shotgun.
Its the same here, to an extent, but here we are allowed to have clone's of AK's. And those weapons are rarely used in crimes.

Quote: But you have to understand that people in this country do not have the same attitude towards guns as americans. Most people would not arm themselves to the teeth even if they were legally available, but the criminals would have no hesitation in bombing themselves up like 'Ahh-nuld' and people would die, the murder rate would skyrocket. Crime may be higher generally in Britain, but the murder rate is still considerably lower than in the states. Better to be a robbery or burglar victim than a murder victim.....
Florida allowed people to conceal carry, and the homicide rate decreased by 36%, proving more guns = less crime.

thundertaker · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:33 am Post subject:

Reason wrote:
The mental illness part is very dangerous indeed. Having one's rights taken because of a history of mental illness is a little scary, especially since definitions of mental illness vary and control over the definitive diagnosis can be abused horrifically.

OK, any form of mental illness that could make that person be a threat to others.

Quote: I actually quite like the second point, it's clever. I don't agree with it on principle, but it seems like a nice compromise. On the other hand it might be useless because people could report their weapon stolen, or they could rent it out. It might be pointless because when a gun is used in a crime, it's already traceable (can someone who knows more about this explain why, you see it in all the films and I have a rought understanding).

If someone kept buying guns and reporting them stolen, the police would soon get the idea that something was up. If he was renting it out and it was used, would the legitimate owner want it to be traced back to him so that he could be charged with being an accessory to murder? Maybe if he was spectacularly stupid.....

Quote:

The gun laws are tough, but not as bad as Britain.

I put the difference in crime rate more to zero tolerance policing than gun laws. Criminals commiting minor crimes who are ignored will be encouraged to commit bigger and bigger crimes later. Nothing to do with guns. If guns were more widely available, criminals would arm themselves with guns readily.
It is extremely difficult to obtain an illegal gun over here compared to the states. You have to be determined and have some particularly nasty contacts in the underworld. It's not quite as easy as buying a bag of blow. Criminals also know that being caught with a gun in your possesion is a 5 year sentence minimum. Consequently, most take the view it is not worth the risk....

Quote: Either way, they will still get guns. Why not arm the law abiding population instead of punishing everyone ofr the action of a select few?

See above.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10835 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Can you show me the total number of gun crimes, compared to the number of gun owners (before the ban)?

thundertaker · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:39 am Post subject:

ProGunAmerican wrote: Can you show me the total number of gun crimes, compared to the number of gun owners (before the ban)?

Gun crime was rising before the ban. And the number of people over here who own guns is and always has been a small minority. So small I doubt it was ever really a factor the average criminal ever considered over here. For what it's worth, I actually think British gun laws are a bit too strict, but I would not like to see them as liberal as they are in the states.......