Political Crossfire Forums

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Why is Islam so totally against the State of Israel?

Muslims can live there too, why not just treat it like any other nation in the area?

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:56 am Post subject: Re: WHY?

cap'n queasy wrote: Why is Islam so totally against the State of Israel?

Muslims can live there too, why not just treat it like any other nation in the area?

Your question clearly shows that you really dont know whats the problem with Israel.
You think that Israel is just like any other country and it was created peacefully with no problems.
Thats ofcourse false.What you need to do is read more about how Israel was created,what consequences occured due to its creation,how many wars were started by Israel.
Oh and before all that you should read a little bit about how Zionism existed.
If you do all that you may understand that Islam has nothing to do with Israel (although the creation of Israel was predicted) but the arabs have problems with Israel because of all the wrong doings Israel causes since its creation.

Jezebel · Joined: 08 Feb 2005 Posts: 390 Location: Houston, TX

Start with WWI and focus on T. E. Lawrence. The Arabs have plenty to be pissed off about.

Suleiman the Magnificent · Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 109

cap'n queasy wrote: Why is Islam so totally against the State of Israel?

Muslims can live there too, why not just treat it like any other nation in the area?

Because Israel was stolen from the Palestinian people. The Israeli's kicked out most of the Arab's and terrorized their populations (they still are to this day).

Islam isn't against Israel - most Muslims are.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Jezebel wrote: Start with WWI and focus on T. E. Lawrence. The Arabs have plenty to be pissed off about.

I can assure you I am very familiar with how American and Britian have treated Arabs.

I never said that don't have any reason not to be angry with Imperialism.

Quote: Because Israel was stolen from the Palestinian people. The Israeli's kicked out most of the Arab's and terrorized their populations (they still are to this day).

Islam isn't against Israel - most Muslims are.

Israel was stolen from the Israelites before that.

If someone steals your car and abandons it on the side of the road and I find it and start driving it around, is it right for me to to be angry with the police for returning it to you?

The fact is the Arab population in Israel is not terrorized at all. In fact many Arabs left out of spite. So this is a case of Ararbs shooting themselves in the foot.

The Arabs that stayed are enjoying the highest standard of living in the Middle East. Other than maybe the tiny population of rulers of the Arab kingdoms, who are rich beyond belief from exploiting their own population.

Muslims should angry at their leaders for screwing them around and blaming it on Israel as a distraction.

Why don't Jordan, Syria, and others integrate their Muslim brothers into their countries instead of making them live in camps?

The fact is if Muslims were not cowardly attacking Israeli civilians and then cowardly hiding among their own civilian populations and were taking care of their Muslim brothers who foolishly left their homes in Israel, there wouldn't be a problem.

I think the problem is that one of these groups is behaving stupidly. And cowardly.

You know what happened last time Muslims united to drive the Israeli's out, don't you.

The hand of God was shown plainly. Little Israel destroyed the armies of several states that were attacking them. That was a miracle.

zeus_89 · Joined: 14 Feb 2005 Posts: 7

Quote: Because Israel was stolen from the Palestinian people. The Israeli's kicked out most of the Arab's and terrorized their populations (they still are to this day).

Islam isn't against Israel - most Muslims are.

Israel was stolen from the Israelites before that.

If someone steals your car and abandons it on the side of the road and I find it and start driving it around, is it right for me to to be angry with the police for returning it to you?

The fact is the Arab population in Israel is not terrorized at all. In fact many Arabs left out of spite. So this is a case of Ararbs shooting themselves in the foot.

The Arabs that stayed are enjoying the highest standard of living in the Middle East. Other than maybe the tiny population of rulers of the Arab kingdoms, who are rich beyond belief from exploiting their own population.
Muslims should angry at their leaders for screwing them around and blaming it on Israel as a distraction.

Why don't Jordan, Syria, and others integrate their Muslim brothers into their countries instead of making them live in camps?

The fact is if Muslims were not cowardly attacking Israeli civilians and then cowardly hiding among their own civilian populations and were taking care of their Muslim brothers who foolishly left their homes in Israel, there wouldn't be a problem.

I think the problem is that one of these groups is behaving stupidly. And cowardly.

You know what happened last time Muslims united to drive the Israeli's out, don't you.

The hand of God was shown plainly. Little Israel destroyed the armies of several states that were attacking them. That was a miracle.[/quote]

And you know how?????????????

Yes,I know what you are saying....Israel didnt force Palestinians to leave...They just destroyed their homes and killed many of them.

Palestinians are living in other countries like normal people, for example in Jordan( where i am from)

Jezebel · Joined: 08 Feb 2005 Posts: 390 Location: Houston, TX

cap'n queasy wrote: Jezebel wrote: Start with WWI and focus on T. E. Lawrence. The Arabs have plenty to be pissed off about.

I can assure you I am very familiar with how American and Britian have treated Arabs.

I never said that don't have any reason not to be angry with Imperialism.

You asked why and I told you where to begin. There are a zillion reasons. :)

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject:

Quote: Israel was stolen from the Israelites before that.

Oh? And the Jews stole and massacred almost all of the original inhabitants of Palestine.So says the old testament.

Quote: If someone steals your car and abandons it on the side of the road and I find it and start driving it around, is it right for me to to be angry with the police for returning it to you?

But that car was stolen in the first place! Will the police take it from a thief and return it to another thief?! :lol:

Quote: The Arabs that stayed are enjoying the highest standard of living in the Middle East.

Are you sure you are talking about the same Israel that i and the world know??
The Israel that we know dont treat its civilians equally,a jew is always favored on the muslim or the christian.
Israel is a racist country that its foundation is based on extremism and terrorism.No way would a state like that treat the people that it practiced oppression on them justly.

Quote: Muslims should angry at their leaders for screwing them around and blaming it on Israel as a distraction.

Actually we are angry at our leaders....and at Israel too.

Quote: Why don't Jordan, Syria, and others integrate their Muslim brothers into their countries instead of making them live in camps?

Better treatment of the Palestinians is recommended.But anyway the question is not about integrating the palestinians into other countries,but its how to help the palestinians to get their lands back.
A palestinian just like any nationalist anywhere wants to return to his country.The country where his fathers and grand fathers lived there for hundreds of years.There are 3-5 million palestinians who are living outside of palestine because to this very day Israel refuse to grand them their right to return to their homes.The right that has been stated by the UN.But ofcourse If they return the majority in Israel will not be jews and so the Israeli leaders must refuse to allow the palestinians to return.This clearly shows that we are dealing with a state that is founded on racism and discrimination and terrorism.
Whats funny is that you come here with crying eyes and ask a simple question:Why Islam is against Israel :roll:
I reply to you: Are you kidding me???

Quote: The hand of God was shown plainly. Little Israel destroyed the armies of several states that were attacking them. That was a miracle.

Woooow here comes our good priest Cap'n queasy,all that "hand of god" and "miracle" stuff made me think that i am in a Church or something. :roll:
Try not to be close minded Cap'n,there are times during the crusades when all odds were against the crusaders and yet they won important battles then it appeared to them that these victories were due to the intervention of god and these victories were miracles.Yet eventually the muslims took back ALL of their lands back....including Jerusalem.
Read some history Cap'n.

Chris29 · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2534 Location: Calgary, Canada

this is not a muslim thind. I know non-arab muslims that are not opposed to the state of Israel. This is an Arab thing. And seeing as how Arabs make up the majority of Muslims I can understand how this wrongful association occurs. It is all about nationalism. Arabs are nationalistic just as israelis are.

Suleiman the Magnificent · Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 109

Chris29 wrote: this is not a muslim thind. I know non-arab muslims that are not opposed to the state of Israel. This is an Arab thing. And seeing as how Arabs make up the majority of Muslims I can understand how this wrongful association occurs. It is all about nationalism. Arabs are nationalistic just as israelis are.

Arabs only make up 25% of the Muslim population, just to let you know. :)

ForestGump · Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 2611

The Ottoman Empire started its own problems by joining the side of Germany and Austria-Hungary during WW1. In their own imperialistic ambitions the Ottoman Empire wanted to annex surrounding territory, thankfully their military s*cked, and the british kicked their asses around a good some. After being defeated by a couple green British Divisions, the British decided to punish the Ottomon Empire by splitting it up into many different countrys (egypt, iraq, turkey, syria), and the Brits gave the Israelis a little strip of land from part of the former Ottoman Empire.

Maybe the muslims should stop trying to INVADE people, they'd lose less land in the process.

let me repeeat, its your damn fault you lost the land to Israel.

Just as Germany keeps losing land to Poland, France, and Denmark. Germany keeps getting smaller and smaller, if she starts another world war, I suspect Germany is going to be the size of a grapefruit.

Theres an unwritten doctrine victors have with defeated nations, and it involves making defeated nations pay for their transgressions by splitting their empires up and/or shrinking their national borders. Im suprised Iraq is still in one piece.

zeus_89 · Joined: 14 Feb 2005 Posts: 7

^^^you do know that the ottoman empire invaded the arab lands, so the arab countries has nothing to do with it.

btw israel invaded palestine, i think you are confused on this subject.

Nico · Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 10827 Location: Auckland

ForestGump wrote: The Ottoman Empire started its own problems by joining the side of Germany and Austria-Hungary during WW1. In their own imperialistic ambitions the Ottoman Empire wanted to annex surrounding territory, thankfully their military s*cked,

There's a national holiday every year for a very large number of Allied dead on the shores of Gallipoli. The Ottomans could fight I assure you, at least at that time.

curious_pixie · Joined: 03 Jun 2005 Posts: 82

zeus_89 wrote:
[b] The Arabs that stayed are enjoying the highest standard of living in the Middle East.

Assertions with no facts - cute.

Algeria:GNI per capita: US $1,890 (World Bank, 2003)
Bahrain: GNI per capita: US $11,260 (World Bank, 2002)
Egypt: GNI per capita: US $1,390 (World Bank, 2003)
Iran: GNI per capita: US $2,000 (World Bank, 2003)
Iraq: no current information
Israel: GNI per capita: US $16,020 (World Bank, 2002)
Palestine: GNI per capita: US $1,110 (World Bank, 2003)
Jordan: GNI per capita: US $1,850 (World Bank, 2003)
Kuwait: GNI per capita: US $16,340 (World Bank, 2002)
Lebanon: GNI per capita: US $4,040 (World Bank, 2003)
Libya: no current information
Mauretania: GNI per capita: US $430 (World Bank, 2003)
Morocco: GNI per capita: US $1,320 (World Bank, 2003)
Oman: GNI per capita: US $7,830 (World Bank, 2002)
Qatar: no current information
Saudi Arabia: GNI per capita: US $8,530 (World Bank, 2002)
Sudan: GNI per capita: US $460 (World Bank, 2003)
Syria: GNI per capita: US $1,130 (World Bank, 2002)
Tunisia: GNI per capita: US $2,240 (World Bank, 2003)
U.A.E.: GNI per capita: US $19,550 (World Bank 1998)
Yemen: GNI per capita: US $520 (World Bank, 2003)
(source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/country_profiles )

Shall we go into other "high standards of living" such as free travel, employment, education, population density, human rights - lest I forget: right to self determination?

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

ForestGump wrote: The Ottoman Empire started its own problems by joining the side of Germany and Austria-Hungary during WW1. In their own imperialistic ambitions the Ottoman Empire wanted to annex surrounding territory, thankfully their military s*cked, and the british kicked their asses around a good some.

:lol: those brits sure kicked their asses when they sent new zealand and australian troops to gallipoli. oh wait... that campaign was a total DISASTER.

Quote: After being defeated by a couple green British Divisions, the British decided to punish the Ottomon Empire by splitting it up into many different countrys (egypt, iraq, turkey, syria), and the Brits gave the Israelis a little strip of land from part of the former Ottoman Empire.

first.. i think egypt had already split away from the ottoman empire before 1914. maybe i'm wrong.
second.. the brits, in trying to punish the arabs, have only caused major problems in the middle east with their lovely country lines...

Quote: Maybe the muslims should stop trying to INVADE people, they'd lose less land in the process.

the muslims didn't lose the land. the turks lost the land.....

Nico · Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 10827 Location: Auckland

Locke25 wrote: ForestGump wrote: The Ottoman Empire started its own problems by joining the side of Germany and Austria-Hungary during WW1. In their own imperialistic ambitions the Ottoman Empire wanted to annex surrounding territory, thankfully their military s*cked, and the british kicked their asses around a good some.

:lol: those brits sure kicked their asses when they sent new zealand and australian troops to gallipoli. oh wait... that campaign was a total DISASTER.

Quite right, but not only us ANZACs, but thousands of British, French, Indian, and various other nationalities

About 480,000 Allied troops took part in the Gallipoli campaign. The British had 205,000 casualties (43,000 killed). There were more than 33,600 ANZAC losses (over one-third killed) and 47,000 French casualties (5,000 killed). Turkish casualties are estimated at 250,000 (65,000 killed).

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWgallipoli.htm

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

Anaximander wrote: Locke25 wrote: ForestGump wrote: The Ottoman Empire started its own problems by joining the side of Germany and Austria-Hungary during WW1. In their own imperialistic ambitions the Ottoman Empire wanted to annex surrounding territory, thankfully their military s*cked, and the british kicked their asses around a good some.

:lol: those brits sure kicked their asses when they sent new zealand and australian troops to gallipoli. oh wait... that campaign was a total DISASTER.

Quite right, but not only us ANZACs, but thousands of British, French, Indian, and various other nationalities

About 480,000 Allied troops took part in the Gallipoli campaign. The British had 205,000 casualties (43,000 killed). There were more than 33,600 ANZAC losses (over one-third killed) and 47,000 French casualties (5,000 killed). Turkish casualties are estimated at 250,000 (65,000 killed).

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWgallipoli.htm

have you ever seen the movie gallipoli? it shows perfectly how the turks dominated in that campaign... which you can obviously see in those numbers.

Nico · Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 10827 Location: Auckland

Locke25 wrote:
have you ever seen the movie gallipoli? it shows perfectly how the turks dominated in that campaign... which you can obviously see in those numbers.

Yeah, it was pretty sad.
our countries respected the turkish fighters after those events. we were the invader and they kicked us good, but they have always been keen to stay on good terms with us as nations in the years since. I respect that a lot, regardless or in spite of how I might feel about the way they run their state or any other marks against them for past wrongs.

Locke25 · Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 3636 Location: Georgia

Anaximander wrote: Locke25 wrote:
have you ever seen the movie gallipoli? it shows perfectly how the turks dominated in that campaign... which you can obviously see in those numbers.

Yeah, it was pretty sad.
our countries respected the turkish fighters after those events. we were the invader and they kicked us good, but they have always been keen to stay on good terms with us as nations in the years since. I respect that a lot, regardless or in spite of how I might feel about the way they run their state or any other marks against them for past wrongs.

yep, they're probably my favorite muslim nation. just because they've been more willing to adapt to modern/western ideas.... unlike some that love islamic traditionalism. the only major problem i had with the turks was their armenian genocide..

Nico · Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 10827 Location: Auckland

Locke25 wrote: the only major problem i had with the turks was their armenian genocide..

Yeah, it's a big black mark, and partly what I was referring to. The treatment of the Kurds is another point I have problems with, but I give credit where it is due, and they have been very good regarding the ANZACs commemorating the events of the first world war on their own soil.